Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west?

[Hippostania]

Yes, I don't have the right to go into every shop, but the shopkeeper doesn't have the right to throw me out because of the colour of my skin or my sexual orientation or anything like that. Whether or not you agree with it, it's true. No such right exists.

Yes he does. It's his shop, not yours. Or do you not have a right to throw away people who have entered your house without your permission?

'll spell it out for you:
Racist shopkeeper = Wants to allow some people to do one thing while stopping other people from doing said thing based on some arbitrary feature.
Marriage Equality advocate = Wants to allow people to do something despite some arbitrary feature of said person.
Now please do show me how these people are in any way similar and not, in fact, opposites.

Racist shopkeeper = Has a business, does not allow group X to use it.
Disagreeing customer = Does not like racist shopkeeper's practices, but does not interfere with his actions even though he disagrees with them because he believes that the shopkeeper has a right to set rules in his own shop
Raging ultra-egalitarian = Wants to ban shopkeeper from doing things that he doesn't like because it conflicts HIS feelings

Government of country X = Has legalized gay marriage
Disagreeing citizen = Does not like the fact that gay marriage is legal, but even though he disagrees with it he respects the fact that his rights are not being directly violated and nobody is forcing him to marry a gay person
Raging racist = Wants to ban gays from marrying because it conflicts HIS feelings

[Souseiseki]

So? You're the one who wants to subvert democracy, not me.



Um, no. You might be able to say "You think conspiracy to murder should not be a crime" but you'd still be wrong.

So your comparison is flawed and the point behind it is incorrect. Try again, kid.

No see, because of Hitler, if you write a book about something that means you fully intend to act on it.

Which is why Tom Clancy hijacked a Russian nuclear submarine.

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

[Imperiatom]

Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west is the question, and if so how tough?
I am interested to find out what the members of nation states feel about this. As if the communists ever took power i doubt we could use this site as we do presently. The outlawing of other political party's would i believe occur, swiftly followed by the repression of free speech and expression. Given that the attitude of the communists is my way or the highway( Road of bones- for those who don't understand my pun) should we tolerate them or should we crack down on them as Germany does for example on Nazi ideology.

I am torn between Keeping the status quo or outlawing the party.


EDIT: I went for the quo because i decided that thankfully communism is irrelevant in the modern world.

*sigh*

1. A "democracy" theoretically advocates liberty, including freedom of association.

2. "Democracy" is a political system. "Communism" is an economic system. They are not diametrically opposed, and can even co-exist in the same nation-state. Totalitarianism is not a necessary feature of Communism.

3. Distinguish between at least three axes in a spatial geometrical graph: x, y, and z. Say x = political system, y = economic system, and z = civil liberties. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar? Why, yes. Yes, it does. It's the perspective on which the mechanics of this game are based. I think it's still too limited, and there have been more than a few topics here discussing various schemes for enhanced graphs with more axes, but at least get off that "Left to Right" line continuum. It's barely two-dimensional.

4. ... Never mind, I'll save the rest for another time.

I would oppose point to 2 as communism is in theory the event of a single political class.

[Hippostania]

i dunno. i just i see many problems in trying to force jewish people and black out. (well it's not force! even if it is easily coercive and they don't really have a choice after a certain point!)

i'm also very very uncomfortable with the idea of creating deliberately judernrein cul de sacs, even if they are created through purestrain liberalism and the freedom of the private property.

Good thing that nobody is forcing you to live in such cul-de-sacs, and you could even try to change the anti-jewish ruling if you happen to own a house on that street!

[Nua Corda]

*sigh*

1. A "democracy" theoretically advocates liberty, including freedom of association.

2. "Democracy" is a political system. "Communism" is an economic system. They are not diametrically opposed, and can even co-exist in the same nation-state. Totalitarianism is not a necessary feature of Communism.

3. Distinguish between at least three axes in a spatial geometrical graph: x, y, and z. Say x = political system, y = economic system, and z = civil liberties. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar? Why, yes. Yes, it does. It's the perspective on which the mechanics of this game are based. I think it's still too limited, and there have been more than a few topics here discussing various schemes for enhanced graphs with more axes, but at least get off that "Left to Right" line continuum. It's barely two-dimensional.

4. ... Never mind, I'll save the rest for another time.

I would oppose point to 2 as communism is in theory the event of a single political class.

Socialism is the economic system communism uses. Communism is the government system applied to a socialist economy.

But you can have a socialist economy under practically any government system.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Or how about no.

You do know that Marxist Leninist is how Stalinists call each other right?

Really I'm objecting to the whole abandoning of the democratic process bit.

[Souseiseki]

Yes, I don't have the right to go into every shop, but the shopkeeper doesn't have the right to throw me out because of the colour of my skin or my sexual orientation or anything like that. Whether or not you agree with it, it's true. No such right exists.

Yes he does. It's his shop, not yours. Or do you not have a right to throw away people who have entered your house without your permission?

'll spell it out for you:
Racist shopkeeper = Wants to allow some people to do one thing while stopping other people from doing said thing based on some arbitrary feature.
Marriage Equality advocate = Wants to allow people to do something despite some arbitrary feature of said person.
Now please do show me how these people are in any way similar and not, in fact, opposites.

Racist shopkeeper = Has a business, does not allow group X to use it.
Disagreeing customer = Does not like racist shopkeeper's practices, but does not interfere with his actions even though he disagrees with them because he believes that the shopkeeper has a right to set rules in his own shop
Raging ultra-egalitarian = Wants to ban shopkeeper from doing things that he doesn't like because it conflicts HIS feelings

Government of country X = Has legalized gay marriage
Disagreeing citizen = Does not like the fact that gay marriage is legal, but even though he disagrees with it he respects the fact that his rights are not being directly violated and nobody is forcing him to marry a gay person
Raging racist = Wants to ban gays from marrying because it conflicts HIS feelings

i actually wonder if any black people walked past a no niggers shop and calmly thought to themselves "hmm, well it's a free country. i disagree with your decision but i will fight to the death to defend it."

well apart from distruzio in his mind

[Death Metal]

No see, because of Hitler, if you write a book about something that means you fully intend to act on it.

Which is why Tom Clancy hijacked a Russian nuclear submarine.

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

Read about HUAC and McCarthay then.

[Hippostania]

i actually wonder if any black people walked past a no niggers shop and calmly thought to themselves "hmm, well it's a free country. i disagree with your decision but i will fight to the death to defend it."

well apart from distruzio in his mind

I certainly wouldn't mind if a shopkeeper put up "NO FINNS" sign on his shop window. It's his choice, after all.

[CTALNH]

You do know that Marxist Leninist is how Stalinists call each other right?

Really I'm objecting to the whole abandoning of the democratic process bit.

Democratic centralism?We never abandon that we only made it more absolute than ever...

[Souseiseki]

i dunno. i just i see many problems in trying to force jewish people and black out. (well it's not force! even if it is easily coercive and they don't really have a choice after a certain point!)

i'm also very very uncomfortable with the idea of creating deliberately judernrein cul de sacs, even if they are created through purestrain liberalism and the freedom of the private property.

Good thing that nobody is forcing you to live in such cul-de-sacs, and you could even try to change the anti-jewish ruling if you happen to own a house on that street!

actually i might make it so that only people who agree with me politically can live here too. that'll be cool

maybe one day we can make every street in the country judenrein. it'll be ok as long as we do it through private property. like we said, you're not forced to live here.

[Ovisterra]

Yes, I don't have the right to go into every shop, but the shopkeeper doesn't have the right to throw me out because of the colour of my skin or my sexual orientation or anything like that. Whether or not you agree with it, it's true. No such right exists.

Yes he does. It's his shop, not yours. Or do you not have a right to throw away people who have entered your house without your permission?

You may believe he should have this right, but saying it exists will require sauce.

'll spell it out for you:
Racist shopkeeper = Wants to allow some people to do one thing while stopping other people from doing said thing based on some arbitrary feature.
Marriage Equality advocate = Wants to allow people to do something despite some arbitrary feature of said person.
Now please do show me how these people are in any way similar and not, in fact, opposites.

Racist shopkeeper = Has a business, does not allow group X to use it.
Disagreeing customer = Does not like racist shopkeeper's practices, but does not interfere with his actions even though he disagrees with them because he believes that the shopkeeper has a right to set rules in his own shop
Raging ultra-egalitarian = Wants to ban shopkeeper from doing things that he doesn't like because it conflicts HIS feelings

Government of country X = Has legalized gay marriage
Disagreeing citizen = Does not like the fact that gay marriage is legal, but even though he disagrees with it he respects the fact that his rights are not being directly violated and nobody is forcing him to marry a gay person
Raging racist = Wants to ban gays from marrying because it conflicts HIS feelings

Example 1 = Someone has banned people from doing something they would otherwise be allowed to do.
Example 2 = Someone had allowed people to do something they previously weren't allowed to do.

So it's completely different.

[Imperiatom]

Yes he does. It's his shop, not yours. Or do you not have a right to throw away people who have entered your house without your permission?


Racist shopkeeper = Has a business, does not allow group X to use it.
Disagreeing customer = Does not like racist shopkeeper's practices, but does not interfere with his actions even though he disagrees with them because he believes that the shopkeeper has a right to set rules in his own shop
Raging ultra-egalitarian = Wants to ban shopkeeper from doing things that he doesn't like because it conflicts HIS feelings

Government of country X = Has legalized gay marriage
Disagreeing citizen = Does not like the fact that gay marriage is legal, but even though he disagrees with it he respects the fact that his rights are not being directly violated and nobody is forcing him to marry a gay person
Raging racist = Wants to ban gays from marrying because it conflicts HIS feelings

i actually wonder if any black people walked past a no niggers shop and calmly thought to themselves "hmm, well it's a free country. i disagree with your decision but i will fight to the death to defend it."

well apart from distruzio in his mind

If they don't i guess they don't believe in a free country.LOL

[Souseiseki]

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

Read about HUAC and McCarthay then.

did they say "lol i'm gonna exterminate the fuck out of these guys" then get elected and not do it? please help me out.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I think there should be another option... where you diagnose all self-declared and genuine communists as mentally problematic and put them away.

It's healthier than the other poll options, prison or execution. It's not about punishing them for their beliefs... it's about simultaneously protecting society from them while helping them get over the mental blocks and become normal citizens again (rehabilitation).

It's not that communists WANT to be bad... it's not that they just want to cause chaos and destruction and advocate unrealistic policies. It's that something is different with them... unlike the 90%+ of the rest of the population, something is wired wrong and they for whatever reason... they think it's actually POSSIBLE to create a large scale classless, moneyless, and stateless society. This is a very dangerous disorder because the most serious sufferers of this madness will actually use violence to achieve their goals; the rest of them are equally dangerous because their instability makes them a liability to everyone else. One wrong trigger and they could snap and rise up against the government... for what they honestly believe are realistic, feasible, and possible objectives (while everyone else systematically and rationally rejects these utopian formulations).

It's clearly a sign of insanity if you believe in the possibility and feasibility of implementing a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society. We need to help these communists regain their rationality... they need our help and we as a society in the west should provide it.

Rehabilitation > Punishment

We can help them...

Think about it... it's much more realistic and feasibly than imprisoning or outright executing communists. It should be added as a poll option... I'd vote for it.

I wasn't aware political opinions were mental illnesses now.

[Ovisterra]

No see, because of Hitler, if you write a book about something that means you fully intend to act on it.

Which is why Tom Clancy hijacked a Russian nuclear submarine.

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

Wait, does this mean we can arrest Jesus and the authors of the various bits of the bible for advocating the killing of adulterers?

[Hippostania]

Example 1 = Someone has banned people from doing something they would otherwise be allowed to do.
Example 2 = Someone had allowed people to do something they previously weren't allowed to do.

So it's completely different.

No.
Example 1 is a private person setting rules in his own, private entity
Example 2 is the government discriminating against a particular grouos

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

I think there should be another option... where you diagnose all self-declared and genuine communists as mentally problematic and put them away.

It's healthier than the other poll options, prison or execution. It's not about punishing them for their beliefs... it's about simultaneously protecting society from them while helping them get over the mental blocks and become normal citizens again (rehabilitation).

It's not that communists WANT to be bad... it's not that they just want to cause chaos and destruction and advocate unrealistic policies. It's that something is different with them... unlike the 90%+ of the rest of the population, something is wired wrong and they for whatever reason... they think it's actually POSSIBLE to create a large scale classless, moneyless, and stateless society. This is a very dangerous disorder because the most serious sufferers of this madness will actually use violence to achieve their goals; the rest of them are equally dangerous because their instability makes them a liability to everyone else. One wrong trigger and they could snap and rise up against the government... for what they honestly believe are realistic, feasible, and possible objectives (while everyone else systematically and rationally rejects these utopian formulations).

It's clearly a sign of insanity if you believe in the possibility and feasibility of implementing a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society. We need to help these communists regain their rationality... they need our help and we as a society in the west should provide it.

Rehabilitation > Punishment

We can help them...

Think about it... it's much more realistic and feasibly than imprisoning or outright executing communists. It should be added as a poll option... I'd vote for it.

I wasn't aware political opinions were mental illnesses now.

As I've already pointed out, the irony is that in the midst of his bizarre diatribe he's actually advocating the tactics the USSR used to deal with dissidents, all the while criticising communists for their supposed tendency to build societies which end up like the USSR.

[Souseiseki]

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

Wait, does this mean we can arrest Jesus and the authors of the various bits of the bible for advocating the killing of adulterers?

well if jeezy-creezy was trying to get elected based on the platform of "kill all the X people" i'd probably not let him. does that make me the real hitler?

[Hippostania]

actually i might make it so that only people who agree with me politically can live here too. that'll be cool

maybe one day we can make every street in the country judenrein. it'll be ok as long as we do it through private property. like we said, you're not forced to live here.

Sure, I'm sure that you can buy every house in America. And yeah, if you want to buy a house and rent it for left-wingers only, then sure, why the fuck not?

[Imperiatom]

do you honestly need to be told why your point of comparing peoples books talking about their life and their political views is different from a fiction novel is utterly useless

Wait, does this mean we can arrest Jesus and the authors of the various bits of the bible for advocating the killing of adulterers?

I wish we could. Incitement to commit a crime, lets nail those fuckers.

[Individual]

It's just CTALNH. The shit he spews out doesn't have to relate with anything in particular.

I would certainly put you in a communal house...

And I would certainly put you down with a gun for trying to trample on my civil liberties. Your point?

[Divair]

Oh my, this thread is about to go to shit. This'll be hilarious.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Oh my, this thread is about to go to shit. This'll be hilarious.

Have you got the image of the black lady leaning out of the window going "What's goin' on in this thr-OH LAWD" ready? You're gonna need it.

[Souseiseki]

actually i might make it so that only people who agree with me politically can live here too. that'll be cool

maybe one day we can make every street in the country judenrein. it'll be ok as long as we do it through private property. like we said, you're not forced to live here.

Sure, I'm sure that you can buy every house in America. And yeah, if you want to buy a house and rent it for left-wingers only, then sure, why the fuck not?

i don't need to. everyone hates them and they'll join up with me. :-)

i just want your confirmation it'd be totally ok if we managed though. please don't avoid it with "WELL THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN LOL" like you're seriously incapable of comprehending the fact that there are some groups out there that suffer pretty serious and widespread discrimination.