Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west?

[CTALNH]

So we were wrong to fight the Nazi's? They had a right to be there on the ballot paper and in government. You don't accept that democracy sometimes needs protection?

Except the Nazis abandoned democracy, were elected without a majority and then subverted the German Constitution.

It's kind of not a democracy when you outlaw all other parties, as they did, and it became right to fight the Nazis once they got into power. I mean, Hitler and the other old guard members should have been banned from politics forever after the Munich Putsch and any organisation led by them declared illegal because of their leading it, which would have not been anti-democratic.

So I am the enemy of the status quo?


I don't get it....

Sarcasm.

Where sure us hell I am more scary to the capitalist system than you.

[Individual]

Two university students and a couple of pamphlets on Stalin are a real threat to the status quo. Always have been.

So I am the enemy of the status quo?


I don't get it....

You are a stalinist, thus, you are the enemy.

[Hippostania]

why could it not take place in the modern world? look at how people treat the roma.

please, don't dodge it. what if the homeowners association decides there will be no juden in the area? is that a-ok, because hey, it's your private rights?

you also don't see the problem wi- no souseiseki, bad.

I don't see the problem; if you own the houses, why shouldn't you be allowed to decide who gets to live in them? Why should anyone have a right to tell you who gets to live in YOUR houses?

[CTALNH]

So we were wrong to fight the Nazi's? They had a right to be there on the ballot paper and in government. You don't accept that democracy sometimes needs protection?

The Nazis had every right to be on the ballot. If a Nazi party were set up in my country today, I would agree they had a right to be on the ballot.

It was what they did afterwards that was wrong.

Us we Marxists Leninists never gave a @$$%@ about the ballot anyway.

Us Lenin said.

"What the social democrats won the elections?"

"Revolution NOW!!!!"

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

I think there should be another option... where you diagnose all self-declared and genuine communists as mentally problematic and put them away.

How very democratic. Locking your opponents away for being mentally ill.

It's funny you suggest that, because it was very widely carried out in the USSR.

It's healthier than the other poll options, prison or execution. It's not about punishing them for their beliefs... it's about simultaneously protecting society from them while helping them get over the mental blocks and become normal citizens again (rehabilitation).

It was also the standard post-gulag response of the USSR to dissidents. For someone who hates it so much, you seem remarkably keen to adopt its methods.

It's not that communists WANT to be bad... it's not that they just want to cause chaos and destruction and advocate unrealistic policies. It's that something is different with them... unlike the 90%+ of the rest of the population, something is wired wrong and they for whatever reason... they think it's actually POSSIBLE to create a large scale classless, moneyless, and stateless society. This is a very dangerous disorder because the most serious sufferers of this madness will actually use violence to achieve their goals; the rest of them are equally dangerous because their instability makes them a liability to everyone else. One wrong trigger and they could snap and rise up against the government... for what they honestly believe are realistic, feasible, and possible objectives (while everyone else systematically and rationally rejects these utopian formulations).

It's clearly a sign of insanity if you believe in the possibility and feasibility of implementing a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society. We need to help these communists regain their rationality... they need our help and we as a society in the west should provide it.

Rehabilitation > Punishment

We can help them...

Think about it... it's much more realistic and feasibly than imprisoning or outright executing communists. It should be added as a poll option... I'd vote for it.

Please come up with an actual argument instead of a bullshit diatribe advocating totalitarian methods.

[CTALNH]

why could it not take place in the modern world? look at how people treat the roma.

please, don't dodge it. what if the homeowners association decides there will be no juden in the area? is that a-ok, because hey, it's your private rights?

you also don't see the problem wi- no souseiseki, bad.

I don't see the problem; if you own the houses, why shouldn't you be allowed to decide who gets to live in them? Why should anyone have a right to tell you who gets to live in YOUR houses?

You mean communal housing in the USSR?

[Hippostania]

I don't see the problem; if you own the houses, why shouldn't you be allowed to decide who gets to live in them? Why should anyone have a right to tell you who gets to live in YOUR houses?

You mean communal housing in the USSR?

wat

How is this related to anything?

[CTALNH]

I think there should be another option... where you diagnose all self-declared and genuine communists as mentally problematic and put them away.

It's healthier than the other poll options, prison or execution. It's not about punishing them for their beliefs... it's about simultaneously protecting society from them while helping them get over the mental blocks and become normal citizens again (rehabilitation).

It's not that communists WANT to be bad... it's not that they just want to cause chaos and destruction and advocate unrealistic policies. It's that something is different with them... unlike the 90%+ of the rest of the population, something is wired wrong and they for whatever reason... they think it's actually POSSIBLE to create a large scale classless, moneyless, and stateless society. This is a very dangerous disorder because the most serious sufferers of this madness will actually use violence to achieve their goals; the rest of them are equally dangerous because their instability makes them a liability to everyone else. One wrong trigger and they could snap and rise up against the government... for what they honestly believe are realistic, feasible, and possible objectives (while everyone else systematically and rationally rejects these utopian formulations).

It's clearly a sign of insanity if you believe in the possibility and feasibility of implementing a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society. We need to help these communists regain their rationality... they need our help and we as a society in the west should provide it.

Rehabilitation > Punishment

We can help them...

Think about it... it's much more realistic and feasibly than imprisoning or outright executing communists. It should be added as a poll option... I'd vote for it.

I am a lost cause then....

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

You mean communal housing in the USSR?

wat

How is this related to anything?

It's a post by CTALNH, it's just bizarre bloodthirsty ramblings about shooting dissidents and quoting from Lenin like it's the Old Testament.

Just leave him be.

[Death Metal]

Banning a party for any reason is anti-democratic. Anyone who can drum up enough support to be on the ballot has the right to be on the ballot.

Interesting concept! Do you believe that for any situation?

Yes. Having opinions is not a crime.

[CTALNH]

You mean communal housing in the USSR?

wat

How is this related to anything?

Thats the only time communists told people to live together until they get housing of their own.

[Individual]

You mean communal housing in the USSR?

wat

How is this related to anything?

It's just CTALNH. The shit he spews out doesn't have to relate with anything in particular.

[CTALNH]

wat

How is this related to anything?

It's a post by CTALNH, it's just bizarre bloodthirsty ramblings about shooting dissidents and quoting from Lenin like it's the Old Testament.

Just leave him be.

Surprisingly I almost never quote Stalin.

[Ovisterra]

You're making a terrible comparison. Being racist is not like gay marriage, being racist is like outlawing gay marriage. It's the opposite of what you said.

No, racists and ultra-egalitarians are quite similar in this aspect. Both people want to ban something that doesn't directly concern them, and quite frankly, is none of their business. They both want to restrict people's freedoms: Racists want to ban gay marriage, ultra-egalitarians want to restrict mutual trade and co-operation between individuals.

"Well, if you don't like homophobic marriage laws, don't get married."

Because in the case of marriage equality, any two consenting adults can get married. It's equality. It's good. But when there's no marriage equality, same-sex couples can't get married. That's bad.

Because in the case of the racist shopkeeper, the issues is not that I have a problem with his/her beliefs, it's that his/her beliefs actively restrict the rights of people. You say "don't go to the shop", and you're right in a way because some people cannot. It's the opposite of marriage equality because the issues is that some people cannot do things.

Except that this means that you somehow have an inherent right to go to a shop owned by a private person. The government discriminating against someone (in this case, gays) violates their inherent rights and means that people aren't equal under the law. However, the same concept does not apply to private individuals, because they're, well, private.

Yes, I don't have the right to go into every shop, but the shopkeeper doesn't have the right to throw me out because of the colour of my skin or my sexual orientation or anything like that. Whether or not you agree with it, it's true. No such right exists.

You can do anything you want as long as you don't hurt anyone else.

Please do show me where the laws of any country say that.

Or, to put it more bluntly: your comparison makes no fucking sense, so kindly cut the crap and stop defending racists. You claim to champion "freedom" and yet here you are, tapdancing on the line of racism-by-proxy and claiming you're "defending rights" and using bullshit examples and comparisons to defend it. I'm sick and tired of this sort of shit.

Oh, it made a lot of sense. It's your comparision that you somehow think that two different people who both want to restrict individual people's rights (in this case, an ultra-egalitarian and a racist) are somehow in the opposite ends of the spectrum while in reality, they both want to interfere with other people's lives and restrict them.

I'll spell it out for you:

Racist shopkeeper = Wants to allow some people to do one thing while stopping other people from doing said thing based on some arbitrary feature.

Marriage Equality advocate = Wants to allow people to do something despite some arbitrary feature of said person.

Now please do show me how these people are in any way similar and not, in fact, opposites.

[Imperiatom]

So we were wrong to fight the Nazi's? They had a right to be there on the ballot paper and in government. You don't accept that democracy sometimes needs protection?

The Nazis had every right to be on the ballot. If a Nazi party were set up in my country today, I would agree they had a right to be on the ballot.

It was what they did afterwards that was wrong.

Newsflash, Hitler wrote and published a book telling the world what he was going to do before he did it. You would have to be naive in the extreme to think they would not try to do the same again. That's like saying attempted murder, or conspiracy to murder is not a crime.

[CTALNH]

wat

How is this related to anything?

It's just CTALNH. The shit he spews out doesn't have to relate with anything in particular.

I would certainly put you in a communal house...

[Death Metal]

The Nazis had every right to be on the ballot. If a Nazi party were set up in my country today, I would agree they had a right to be on the ballot.

It was what they did afterwards that was wrong.

Newsflash, Hitler wrote and published a book telling the world what he was going to do before he did it. You would have to be naive in the extreme to think they would not try to do the same again. That's like saying attempted murder, or conspiracy to murder is not a crime.

[CTALNH]

The Nazis had every right to be on the ballot. If a Nazi party were set up in my country today, I would agree they had a right to be on the ballot.

It was what they did afterwards that was wrong.

Newsflash, Hitler wrote and published a book telling the world what he was going to do before he did it. You would have to be naive in the extreme to think they would not try to do the same again. That's like saying attempted murder, or conspiracy to murder is not a crime.

Mein Kampf?

I read it he brags about killing the Jews and slaying the godless Bolsheviks....

And makes certainly clear that him and economics where never buddies...

[Souseiseki]

why could it not take place in the modern world? look at how people treat the roma.

please, don't dodge it. what if the homeowners association decides there will be no juden in the area? is that a-ok, because hey, it's your private rights?

you also don't see the problem wi- no souseiseki, bad.

I don't see the problem; if you own the houses, why shouldn't you be allowed to decide who gets to live in them? Why should anyone have a right to tell you who gets to live in YOUR houses?

i dunno. i just i see many problems in trying to force jewish people and black out. (well it's not force! even if it is easily coercive and they don't really have a choice after a certain point!)

i'm also very very uncomfortable with the idea of creating deliberately judernrein cul de sacs, even if they are created through purestrain liberalism and the freedom of the private property.

[Ovisterra]

The Nazis had every right to be on the ballot. If a Nazi party were set up in my country today, I would agree they had a right to be on the ballot.

It was what they did afterwards that was wrong.

Newsflash, Hitler wrote and published a book telling the world what he was going to do before he did it. You would have to be naive in the extreme to think they would not try to do the same again.

So? You're the one who wants to subvert democracy, not me.

That's like saying attempted murder, or conspiracy to murder is not a crime.

Um, no. You might be able to say "You think conspiracy to murder should not be a crime" but you'd still be wrong.

So your comparison is flawed and the point behind it is incorrect. Try again, kid.

[Imperiatom]

I think there should be another option... where you diagnose all self-declared and genuine communists as mentally problematic and put them away.

It's healthier than the other poll options, prison or execution. It's not about punishing them for their beliefs... it's about simultaneously protecting society from them while helping them get over the mental blocks and become normal citizens again (rehabilitation).

It's not that communists WANT to be bad... it's not that they just want to cause chaos and destruction and advocate unrealistic policies. It's that something is different with them... unlike the 90%+ of the rest of the population, something is wired wrong and they for whatever reason... they think it's actually POSSIBLE to create a large scale classless, moneyless, and stateless society. This is a very dangerous disorder because the most serious sufferers of this madness will actually use violence to achieve their goals; the rest of them are equally dangerous because their instability makes them a liability to everyone else. One wrong trigger and they could snap and rise up against the government... for what they honestly believe are realistic, feasible, and possible objectives (while everyone else systematically and rationally rejects these utopian formulations).

It's clearly a sign of insanity if you believe in the possibility and feasibility of implementing a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society. We need to help these communists regain their rationality... they need our help and we as a society in the west should provide it.

Rehabilitation > Punishment

We can help them...

Think about it... it's much more realistic and feasibly than imprisoning or outright executing communists. It should be added as a poll option... I'd vote for it.

LOL i wish i had put that option now. I have to say whilst all the "ideological" communists out there will denounce your post in all probability as the perpetrators not being communists. it is true that in the real world any attempt form a communist state of affairs has ended as you have described.

[Death Metal]

Newsflash, Hitler wrote and published a book telling the world what he was going to do before he did it. You would have to be naive in the extreme to think they would not try to do the same again.

So? You're the one who wants to subvert democracy, not me.

That's like saying attempted murder, or conspiracy to murder is not a crime.

Um, no. You might be able to say "You think conspiracy to murder should not be a crime" but you'd still be wrong.

So your comparison is flawed and the point behind it is incorrect. Try again, kid.

No see, because of Hitler, if you write a book about something that means you fully intend to act on it.

Which is why Tom Clancy hijacked a Russian nuclear submarine.

[Nua Corda]

why could it not take place in the modern world? look at how people treat the roma.

please, don't dodge it. what if the homeowners association decides there will be no juden in the area? is that a-ok, because hey, it's your private rights?

you also don't see the problem wi- no souseiseki, bad.

I don't see the problem; if you own the houses, why shouldn't you be allowed to decide who gets to live in them? Why should anyone have a right to tell you who gets to live in YOUR houses?

Looks like it's time to add minorities to the list of things Hippo hates.

[Dusk_Kittens]

Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west is the question, and if so how tough?
I am interested to find out what the members of nation states feel about this. As if the communists ever took power i doubt we could use this site as we do presently. The outlawing of other political party's would i believe occur, swiftly followed by the repression of free speech and expression. Given that the attitude of the communists is my way or the highway( Road of bones- for those who don't understand my pun) should we tolerate them or should we crack down on them as Germany does for example on Nazi ideology.

I am torn between Keeping the status quo or outlawing the party.


EDIT: I went for the quo because i decided that thankfully communism is irrelevant in the modern world.

*sigh*

1. A "democracy" theoretically advocates liberty, including freedom of association.

2. "Democracy" is a political system. "Communism" is an economic system. They are not diametrically opposed, and can even co-exist in the same nation-state. Totalitarianism is not a necessary feature of Communism.

3. Distinguish between at least three axes in a spatial geometrical graph: x, y, and z. Say x = political system, y = economic system, and z = civil liberties. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar? Why, yes. Yes, it does. It's the perspective on which the mechanics of this game are based. I think it's still too limited, and there have been more than a few topics here discussing various schemes for enhanced graphs with more axes, but at least get off that "Left to Right" line continuum. It's barely two-dimensional.

4. ... Never mind, I'll save the rest for another time.

Edit: PS -- I didn't vote, because I don't agree with any of the options. The "status quo" is perhaps less undesirable than the anti-liberty options, but it's hardly ideal.

[Tagete]

Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west is the question, and if so how tough?
I am interested to find out what the members of nation states feel about this. As if the communists ever took power i doubt we could use this site as we do presently. The outlawing of other political party's would i believe occur, swiftly followed by the repression of free speech and expression. Given that the attitude of the communists is my way or the highway( Road of bones- for those who don't understand my pun) should we tolerate them or should we crack down on them as Germany does for example on Nazi ideology.

I am torn between Keeping the status quo or outlawing the party.


EDIT: I went for the quo because i decided that thankfully communism is irrelevant in the modern world.

In my country (Italy) the National Fascist Party is outlaw and Its symbols and political paraphernalia, but not the Communist Party (which is not present in the parliament now).
However not ever the Communist Party has erased democracy, on 1950s has won elections in San Marino, and the former president party of Cyprus was communist, obviously these two examples are not very significant, though.