Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west?

[Souseiseki]

Personally, I'm all in favor of going back to the old ways, and by that I mean blacklisting communists and barring them from any employment that involves national security/anywhere in which a security clearance has to be held.

Now some will say, "What about freedom of speech/ideology" however due to the nature of communism being an ideology hell bent on taking out the establishment through a spontaneous workers revolution(as any hardened Marxist would tell you), that any communist is already rallying in, or preparing to engage in treasonous activity against his own homeland.

Also, if communists want to live in a "worker's paradise" as they continuously quote, they can always immigrate to North Korea, Communist China or Cuba where they can have all the proletarian state that they can stomach.

just like the old days, where people who fought fascism in spain were labeled "premature anti-fascists" and not promoted when fighting fascism actually became cool. ah, those were the good old days.

you actually pulled the north korea card ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Imperiatom]

What Communist Parties? Oh yeah, those Communist Parties which have no conceivable chance of ever winning a single election for even the lowest offices.

For someone with the Cypriotan flag, you don't know much about the AKEL.

I am talking about reality whilst communism is just a fantasy. Why does he have to mention something for me to bring it up? You sound like a fascist to me.

I am bringing it up because i believe that in the real world that is a far as communism can ever get.

A question, then. Do you think the current economical system based on private property will last forever? And if so, why would it be different from every single system that predated it?

This economic system has been around since man came out of his cave, ever since the first trade was made 1000's of years ago. Given how susceptible the human brain is to the concept of ownership and being superior to another i would say it has a bloody good chance of doing just that.

[Garwall]

For someone with the Cypriotan flag, you don't know much about the AKEL.


A question, then. Do you think the current economical system based on private property will last forever? And if so, why would it be different from every single system that predated it?

This economic system has been around since man came out of his cave, ever since the first trade was made 1000's of years ago. Given how susceptible the human brain is to the concept of ownership and being superior to another i would say it has a bloody good chance of doing just that.

I'd like to hear your response to my post on the previous page, regarding my example.

[Agymnum]

In which case those men were not really communist in the first place, were they?

I can overthrow a dictator and promise democracy, and then install myself as a dictator. Does that mean democracy doesn't work? No, of course not, it just means that I never intended to implement democracy in the first place.

Stalin and Mao never intended to really implement communism. They wanted power, and communism is the antithesis of power since it empowers the worker.

Well first off, Stalin did not found the Soviet Union. Lenin did, and what he implemented was communism. Stalin took what Lenin did to the extreme. As did Mao. Also, communism is not a form of government. It is a socioeconomic system. You can't say "We're going to he communist" then say "just kidding we're a dictatorship", it makes no sense.

Communism is the implementation of a system where the means of production are owned by the workers.

It is impossible for communism to be anything but democratic, since the only way for workers to own the means of production is for all workers to have equal power. If communism were to be attempted in an authoritarian state, the workers would lose the means of production to the state's power and thus the state would not be communist.

More to the point, communism is supposed to be a stateless, classless society. "Communist state" is inherently wrong because there is no such thing. It's like saying "air water" or "wood steel".

[Souseiseki]

In which case those men were not really communist in the first place, were they?

I can overthrow a dictator and promise democracy, and then install myself as a dictator. Does that mean democracy doesn't work? No, of course not, it just means that I never intended to implement democracy in the first place.

Stalin and Mao never intended to really implement communism. They wanted power, and communism is the antithesis of power since it empowers the worker.

Well first off, Stalin did not found the Soviet Union. Lenin did, and what he implemented was communism. Stalin took what Lenin did to the extreme. As did Mao. Also, communism is not a form of government. It is a socioeconomic system. You can't say "We're going to he communist" then say "just kidding we're a dictatorship", it makes no sense.

when lenin was off crushing worker owned factories with force i thought to myself "god, what an awesome communist. he's like an awesome possum, but that possum also happens to be the vanguard of the proletarian revolution."

[Baiynistan]

we used to have a few socialist MSPs (since you mentioned socialism failed and the united kingdom) before things got really kinky and the left tore itself apart as usual

we're also run by a nationalist government

holy shit we must terrify you

Well, I don't doubt that socialists might win a few seats here and there over the years, but a majority? I really doubt that's happening. At least while the 21st Century status quo holds up. Maybe if we discover and start using an efficient and renewable energy source, it might change the nature of production and markets enough to make more 'extreme' philosophies more appealing to more people and radical parties might get more votes. But, I don't think that'll happen any time soon.
Despite complaining about there not being enough, wages being too low, working conditions being too poor etc, I believe most workers haven't given enough thought to alternatives to market systems and therefore still hold the position that, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.", in regards to a mixed economy, Capitalist system and I think that's why politics is all so boringly Centrist.

And, yeah, it's not the best... <.<

[Souseiseki]

For someone with the Cypriotan flag, you don't know much about the AKEL.


A question, then. Do you think the current economical system based on private property will last forever? And if so, why would it be different from every single system that predated it?

This economic system has been around since man came out of his cave, ever since the first trade was made 1000's of years ago. Given how susceptible the human brain is to the concept of ownership and being superior to another i would say it has a bloody good chance of doing just that.

hopefully someone else will take it but i'll just say now the idea that purestrain private property capitalism was always present in humans and is hardwired into our brains is bollocks

[Conscentia]

Then the Nazis would never have discredited fascism, imperialism, anti-Semitism, etc.
Germany would still be dealing with the Versailles debt & hyperinflation.
etc.

They didn't necessarily discredit fascism, only Nazism.

The Italians discredited fascism more than the Germans did.

Fascism was associated with Nazis thanks to the Axis.

[Imperiatom]

I think democracy should get tough on people who think that democracy should get tough on people. Rights for me but not for thee; it always ends the same way. The moment you say that freedom of assembly or of speech or of political conscience needs to be limited by this or that, then you've turned rights into privileges, which will in time invariably be winnowed away.

What are your political opinions, Imperiatom?

On this issue i have not yet decided, as said in the OP. It's up to you to persuade me.

[TaQud]

You know, if a party is outlawed, it ain't much of a democracy.

this.

I'd bet Luveria would like this topic.

[The Broken Imperial Sector]

Communism does not work, it is a tool power hungry men use to get their nations working class to place them in power.

In which case those men were not really communist in the first place, were they?

I can overthrow a dictator and promise democracy, and then install myself as a dictator. Does that mean democracy doesn't work? No, of course not, it just means that I never intended to implement democracy in the first place.

Stalin and Mao never intended to really implement communism. They wanted power, and communism is the antithesis of power since it empowers the worker.

Which is why it is such a dangerous system. And it should be destroyed or at least watched very carefully.

[Agymnum]

I think democracy should get tough on people who think that democracy should get tough on people. Rights for me but not for thee; it always ends the same way. The moment you say that freedom of assembly or of speech or of political conscience needs to be limited by this or that, then you've turned rights into privileges, which will in time invariably be winnowed away.

What are your political opinions, Imperiatom?

On this issue i have not yet decided, as said in the OP. It's up to you to persuade me.

Hah, see, that's not how NSG works.

On NSG, when you post a thread you give your opinion. We're debating the validity of your opinion, not which opinion you should choose. You should already know what you want. If you're asking a bunch of internet people to make up your mind for you, that's pretty fucking stupid because you should know that almost all of us have some sort of leftist bias.

Use your brain. Make your own decisions.

[Arumdaum]

Well first off, Stalin did not found the Soviet Union. Lenin did, and what he implemented was communism. Stalin took what Lenin did to the extreme. As did Mao. Also, communism is not a form of government. It is a socioeconomic system. You can't say "We're going to he communist" then say "just kidding we're a dictatorship", it makes no sense.

when lenin was off crushing worker owned factories with force i thought to myself "god, what an awesome communist. he's like an awesome possum, but that possum also happens to be the vanguard of the proletarian revolution."

[Kedri]

I hate communism with all my heart, but I value people's freedom of speech, expression, and belief.

[Agymnum]

In which case those men were not really communist in the first place, were they?

I can overthrow a dictator and promise democracy, and then install myself as a dictator. Does that mean democracy doesn't work? No, of course not, it just means that I never intended to implement democracy in the first place.

Stalin and Mao never intended to really implement communism. They wanted power, and communism is the antithesis of power since it empowers the worker.

Which is why it is such a dangerous system. And it should be destroyed or at least watched very carefully.

Should we not do the same for conservatism? I meant, it restricts the freedoms of others and it promotes extreme nationalism which is hurtful to the internationalist world we now live in.

It's a slippery slope you're sliding down there. For there to be true freedom, one must accept ideologies one both loves and hates. Freedom is a two-way street, son.

[Disserbia]

I'm gonna try and thread this right now.

Democracy is the participation of all citizens in the processes that affect their lives. Thus, all citizens have a say and may voice their opinions. If a governing body wants to protect Democracy, then it must seek to ensure that all its citizens are able to voice their opinions on what they want the government to be like. Make sense so far?

Okay, so let's make an example. Country A recently received a shipment of books that argue for Communism. Communism will be defined as that described by Karl Marx, not the "Communism" or "Socialism" argued for/practiced by political figures such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, and so forth. Communists in Country A decided to found the Communist Party of Country A (abbreviated as CPCA). They argue for the abolition of the state, an end to private property, and placing the means of production in the hands of the people and sharing it in a collective fashion for the benefit of all.

Country A is Democratic, and its constitution declares it as a democratic nation where the rights to free speech, expression, and demonstration are protected by law, and the government's sole job is to protect Democracy in Country A. If Country A was to outlaw the CPCA based on the assumption it would subvert democracy, the government of Country A just restricted rights of expression, speech, and demonstration to all its citizens in the CPCA. As a result, Democracy was just subverted by the Government of Country A, who just violated their constitution and oaths as elected officials.

As a result of this demonstration, it is clear that banning a party to protect Democracy, restricts the rights of the people, and is by nature, undemocratic, and thus cannot be done in a country whose constitution guarantees democratic rights of free speech, expression, and demonstration to all citizens.

Not allowing people to openly believe in Communism would be undemocratic, not allowing people bent on destroying democracy to do so is necessary.

[National Socialists of America]

No, because the commies would never gain power in the west. Besides, anyone with half a brain knows Communism would never work.

[Machtergreifung]

Well first off, Stalin did not found the Soviet Union. Lenin did, and what he implemented was communism. Stalin took what Lenin did to the extreme. As did Mao. Also, communism is not a form of government. It is a socioeconomic system. You can't say "We're going to he communist" then say "just kidding we're a dictatorship", it makes no sense.

when lenin was off crushing worker owned factories with force i thought to myself "god, what an awesome communist. he's like an awesome possum, but that possum also happens to be the vanguard of the proletarian revolution."

The whole problem with using the USSR as a example for ideal communist rule is that the Civil War made a bloody mess of the country. Rather hard to establish a equal society based on Communism when half the country is in a state of war and the other half in open revolt because of famines.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Let's be honest here guys, Hitler was tough on Communism, and he was democratically elected.

I think we need to learn from his shining example of democracy and ethnic purity leadership.

[Imperiatom]

Thank you Rex.

You do understand what he's saying, don't you?

Yes i am jesting.

[Haydenish People]

Outlawing a party is the first step on a road to dictatorship. I am a right-wing libertarian and I oppose outlawing the Communist Part.

[Agymnum]

Let's be honest here guys, Hitler was tough on Communism, and he was democratically elected.

I think we need to learn from his shining example of democracy and ethnic purity leadership.

Agreed. Shoot the Jews and put the Commies in labor camps. That'll teach those pinkos who's boss!

[The Broken Imperial Sector]

Which is why it is such a dangerous system. And it should be destroyed or at least watched very carefully.

Should we not do the same for conservatism? I meant, it restricts the freedoms of others and it promotes extreme nationalism which is hurtful to the internationalist world we now live in.

It's a slippery slope you're sliding down there. For there to be true freedom, one must accept ideologies one both loves and hates. Freedom is a two-way street, son.

First of don't call me son. And communism is a direct threat to democracy at least conservatism still allows elections and free speech.

[Garwall]

I'm gonna try and thread this right now.

Democracy is the participation of all citizens in the processes that affect their lives. Thus, all citizens have a say and may voice their opinions. If a governing body wants to protect Democracy, then it must seek to ensure that all its citizens are able to voice their opinions on what they want the government to be like. Make sense so far?

Okay, so let's make an example. Country A recently received a shipment of books that argue for Communism. Communism will be defined as that described by Karl Marx, not the "Communism" or "Socialism" argued for/practiced by political figures such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, and so forth. Communists in Country A decided to found the Communist Party of Country A (abbreviated as CPCA). They argue for the abolition of the state, an end to private property, and placing the means of production in the hands of the people and sharing it in a collective fashion for the benefit of all.

Country A is Democratic, and its constitution declares it as a democratic nation where the rights to free speech, expression, and demonstration are protected by law, and the government's sole job is to protect Democracy in Country A. If Country A was to outlaw the CPCA based on the assumption it would subvert democracy, the government of Country A just restricted rights of expression, speech, and demonstration to all its citizens in the CPCA. As a result, Democracy was just subverted by the Government of Country A, who just violated their constitution and oaths as elected officials.

As a result of this demonstration, it is clear that banning a party to protect Democracy, restricts the rights of the people, and is by nature, undemocratic, and thus cannot be done in a country whose constitution guarantees democratic rights of free speech, expression, and demonstration to all citizens.

Not allowing people to openly believe in Communism would be undemocratic, not allowing people bent on destroying democracy to do so is necessary.

Then such a system of government would not be considered a "Democracy", it would be a "Republic" based closely on Democratic ideals. True democracy would not allow for the elected officials to restrict democratic ideals in any fashion.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Let's be honest here guys, Hitler was tough on Communism, and he was democratically elected.

I think we need to learn from his shining example of democracy and ethnic purity leadership.

Agreed. Shoot the Jews and put the Commies in labor camps. That'll teach those pinkos who's boss!

No, not the labor camps.

Labour camps on the other hand...