Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west?

[Imperiatom]

If you believe that then do you concede that as long as people have their own minds communism can never succeed.

Capitalist democracies succeed with Commies in them.


I don't see why a Communist society can succeed with Capitalists in them.

come again? that post does not make sense at first look.

[New Freedomstan]

come again? that post does not make sense at first look.

Communism doesn't require everyone to be communists, no more than capitalism requires everyone to be (ideological) capitalists.

[Imperiatom]

come again? that post does not make sense at first look.

Communism doesn't require everyone to be communists, no more than capitalism requires everyone to be (ideological) capitalists.

Communist ideology does expect them to stay inline and follow communism without a state to control them and prevent them from acting on their own ideology. How is that ever going to work?

[Kavck]

come again? that post does not make sense at first look.

Communism doesn't require everyone to be communists, no more than capitalism requires everyone to be (ideological) capitalists.

Correct.

[Saiwania]

I would be for suppressing communists if they were a threat to the republic in the US, but since they are unpopular and have little power- I am content to leave them alone and let them be apart of one of the political fringes.

[New Freedomstan]

Communism doesn't require everyone to be communists, no more than capitalism requires everyone to be (ideological) capitalists.

Communist ideology does expect them to stay inline and follow communism without a state to control them and prevent them from acting on their own ideology. How is that ever going to work?

Which communist ideology is that? I can only really speak for the Marxist-Leninist brand, but you have everything from non-marxist utopian communists to icepick-receivers trotskyists to all manner of ilk running about.

Communism is the stated philosophy that eventually the capitalist method of allocation will simply not be efficient, with private property acting as a deterrent to prosperity rather than something contributing to it. As an example, copyright laws preventing wealth-generation through individual artisans or smaller companies using designs owned by major companies, or a decent chunk of the internet economy. Communism would then be a post-capitalist system in which common property of the means of production is the most efficient method of creating prosperity.

How to bring about this change is where communists generally differ, but no-one I've heard of requires this change to be supported by everyone, or even the majority. Marxism-Leninism, and other varieties adhering to a vanguard party, are pretty clear that the majority support is meant to be achieved during the revolution, not afterwards. In the intermeditary stage between capitalism and communism, that of Socialism, Marxists state that a Dictatorship of the Proletariat will be enforced in order to get rid of the remnants of bourgeois thought. In communism itself however, this will no longer be necessary.

After all, you cannot make an omelette without first ruthlessly crushing a dozen eggs and then executing the chicken that laid them as an example to others.

[Conscentia]

Communism doesn't require everyone to be communists, no more than capitalism requires everyone to be (ideological) capitalists.

Communist ideology does expect them to stay inline and follow communism without a state to control them and prevent them from acting on their own ideology. How is that ever going to work?

You have no idea what communism is, do you?

[Imperiatom]

Communist ideology does expect them to stay inline and follow communism without a state to control them and prevent them from acting on their own ideology. How is that ever going to work?

Which communist ideology is that? I can only really speak for the Marxist-Leninist brand, but you have everything from non-marxist utopian communists to icepick-receivers trotskyists to all manner of ilk running about.

Communism is the stated philosophy that eventually the capitalist method of allocation will simply not be efficient, with private property acting as a deterrent to prosperity rather than something contributing to it. As an example, copyright laws preventing wealth-generation through individual artisans or smaller companies using designs owned by major companies, or a decent chunk of the internet economy. Communism would then be a post-capitalist system in which common property of the means of production is the most efficient method of creating prosperity.

How to bring about this change is where communists generally differ, but no-one I've heard of requires this change to be supported by everyone, or even the majority. Marxism-Leninism, and other varieties adhering to a vanguard party, are pretty clear that the majority support is meant to be achieved during the revolution, not afterwards. In the intermeditary stage between capitalism and communism, that of Socialism, Marxists state that a Dictatorship of the Proletariat will be enforced in order to get rid of the remnants of bourgeois thought. In communism itself however, this will no longer be necessary.

After all, you cannot make an omelette without first ruthlessly crushing a dozen eggs and then executing the chicken that laid them as an example to others.

You can't program people to think the communist way before they are born, we are all of our own minds so you can never get read of "bourgeois" thought. Some people are more intelligent than just blindly following what they are taught and will not follow it, therefor one can never move past Stalinist ideology to Marxism as each generation brings you back to square one with a group of people that need "educating" as you commie's call it.

NB: i have made plenty of omelette's but never killed a chicken.

[New Freedomstan]

You can't program people to think the communist way before they are born, we are all of our own minds so you can never get read of "bourgeois" thought. Some people are more intelligent than just blindly following what they are taught and will not follow it, therefor one can never move past Stalinist ideology to Marxism as each generation brings you back to square one with a group of people that need "educating" as you commie's call it.

NB: i have made plenty of omelette's but never killed a chicken.

Why do you think the amount of people who want to return to feudalism, or slavery, are so few and far between in our capitalist society? If we manage to achieve communism, people wanting to return to waged labour won't be much of a concern.

[Imperiatom]

Communist ideology does expect them to stay inline and follow communism without a state to control them and prevent them from acting on their own ideology. How is that ever going to work?

You have no idea what communism is, do you?

And you have your head in the clouds thinking it will ever work.

As i am talking about above communism is for one a stateless society and yet due to the human psyche a state will always be needed to repress those who disagree with Communism in the first place and want something else.

[Conscentia]

Which communist ideology is that? I can only really speak for the Marxist-Leninist brand, but you have everything from non-marxist utopian communists to icepick-receivers trotskyists to all manner of ilk running about.

Communism is the stated philosophy that eventually the capitalist method of allocation will simply not be efficient, with private property acting as a deterrent to prosperity rather than something contributing to it. As an example, copyright laws preventing wealth-generation through individual artisans or smaller companies using designs owned by major companies, or a decent chunk of the internet economy. Communism would then be a post-capitalist system in which common property of the means of production is the most efficient method of creating prosperity.

How to bring about this change is where communists generally differ, but no-one I've heard of requires this change to be supported by everyone, or even the majority. Marxism-Leninism, and other varieties adhering to a vanguard party, are pretty clear that the majority support is meant to be achieved during the revolution, not afterwards. In the intermeditary stage between capitalism and communism, that of Socialism, Marxists state that a Dictatorship of the Proletariat will be enforced in order to get rid of the remnants of bourgeois thought. In communism itself however, this will no longer be necessary.

After all, you cannot make an omelette without first ruthlessly crushing a dozen eggs and then executing the chicken that laid them as an example to others.

You can't program people to think the communist way before they are born, we are all of our own minds so you can never get read of "bourgeois" thought. Some people are more intelligent than just blindly following what they are taught and will not follow it, therefor one can never move past Stalinist ideology to Marxism as each generation brings you back to square one with a group of people that need "educating" as you commie's call it.

NB: i have made plenty of omelette's but never killed a chicken.

Complete misinterpretation of what was written.
He didn't even mention Stalinism.

[Imperiatom]

You can't program people to think the communist way before they are born, we are all of our own minds so you can never get read of "bourgeois" thought. Some people are more intelligent than just blindly following what they are taught and will not follow it, therefor one can never move past Stalinist ideology to Marxism as each generation brings you back to square one with a group of people that need "educating" as you commie's call it.

NB: i have made plenty of omelette's but never killed a chicken.

Why do you think the amount of people who want to return to feudalism, or slavery, are so few and far between in our capitalist society? If we manage to achieve communism, people wanting to return to waged labour won't be much of a concern.

why do so few people want Communism in our capitalist society? touché.

[New Freedomstan]

You have no idea what communism is, do you?

And you have your head in the clouds thinking it will ever work.

As i am talking about above communism is for one a stateless society and yet due to the human psyche a state will always be needed to repress those who disagree with Communism in the first place and want something else.

The definition of state marxists use is not "a government" or "a public organisatorial body". The state in Marxist terms is the public body used to front the interests of the ruling class, which in capitalism is the bourgeoisie, and in socialism the proletariat and allied classes. Most Marxists still operate that a statesless society, will still have a public legislative body in order to enforce the laws of society, but as class-differences grow less, and class-antagonism vanishes, the class-character of the state will vanish. Leaving merely the organisatorial and administrative role of the state, and not that of an enforcer of the ruling class' interests.

If communism is achieved, it's only good that people will gradually grow to oppose it as the rate of development increases, leading to conflict and, eventually, transition to whatever system lies beyond communism. We can't predict what the sources of conflict will be, but humans will be in conflict. However, to think that this will lead to restoration of capitalism is no more likely than for feudalism to be restored in the modern day.

[Thurask]

if the communists ever took power

And that is why this is not an issue.

[Conscentia]

[delete]

[Agymnum]

Why do you think the amount of people who want to return to feudalism, or slavery, are so few and far between in our capitalist society? If we manage to achieve communism, people wanting to return to waged labour won't be much of a concern.

why do so few people want Communism in our capitalist society? touché.

Communism evolved as a response to capitalism. It is the future, not the past.

Feudalism and slavery predated modern mixed-economic systems. Thus, they are the past.

That's the difference. People do not want communism because it is a relatively misunderstood ideology only really appreciated by those who understand its democratic principles.

People do not want feudalism or slavery because both are relatively well-understood ideologies and thus people understand what is wrong with them.

[Garwall]

Is there a good reason for tolerating something that would not tolerate you. if you do tolerate it, is it possible one might be laying the seeds to their own downfall?

Communism =/= Totalitarian Stalinism. Nobody understands this.

[Anachronous Rex]

I love the poll:
"Do nothing, or else do far more then would be civilized, choose wisely."

[Imperiatom]

You can't program people to think the communist way before they are born, we are all of our own minds so you can never get read of "bourgeois" thought. Some people are more intelligent than just blindly following what they are taught and will not follow it, therefor one can never move past Stalinist ideology to Marxism as each generation brings you back to square one with a group of people that need "educating" as you commie's call it.

NB: i have made plenty of omelette's but never killed a chicken.

Complete misinterpretation of what was written.
He didn't even mention Stalinism.

I am talking about reality whilst communism is just a fantasy. Why does he have to mention something for me to bring it up? You sound like a fascist to me.

I am bringing it up because i believe that in the real world that is a far as communism can ever get.

[Disserbia]

Socialist parties no, communist parties yes. Freedom of speech need only go so far when the goal is to abolish the state and those involved are actively working towards it.

[Agymnum]

Complete misinterpretation of what was written.
He didn't even mention Stalinism.

I am talking about reality whilst communism is just a fantasy. Why does he have to mention something for me to bring it up? You sound like a fascist to me.

I am bringing it up because i believe that in the real world that is a far as communism can ever get.

Again, stalinism is not communism. It doesn't matter whether you define it as such, because it isn't.

Communism does not have to take an authoritarian route. It can develop democratically via a transition through democratic socialism. Totalitarian dictators like Stalin used communism as a method of justifying their brutality, just like Hitler justified his brutality with racial supremacy and God. Neither really represented communism nor God properly.

[Cosara]

What Communist Parties? Oh yeah, those Communist Parties which have no conceivable chance of ever winning a single election for even the lowest offices.

[Garwall]

I am talking about reality whilst communism is just a fantasy. Why does he have to mention something for me to bring it up? You sound like a fascist to me.

I am bringing it up because i believe that in the real world that is a far as communism can ever get.

Again, stalinism is not communism. It doesn't matter whether you define it as such, because it isn't.

Communism does not have to take an authoritarian route. It can develop democratically via a transition through democratic socialism. Totalitarian dictators like Stalin used communism as a method of justifying their brutality, just like Hitler justified his brutality with racial supremacy and God. Neither really represented communism nor God properly.

^This. If we take things for their face value, then by this logic, all forms of Democracy should be outlawed because of the practices of North Korea, officially known as the Democratic Republic of North Korea.

[Agymnum]

What Communist Parties? Oh yeah, those Communist Parties which have no conceivable chance of ever winning a single election for even the lowest offices.

The issue is not whether they are relevant. It's whether banning them is the morally correct thing to do.

It's not, because it infringes on freedom of speech. As much as I may hate the KKK or WBC, banning those would be infringing on their freedom of speech and that is undemocratic.

[Conscentia]

You have no idea what communism is, do you?

And you have your head in the clouds thinking it will ever work.

As i am talking about above communism is for one a stateless society and yet due to the human psyche a state will always be needed to repress those who disagree with Communism in the first place and want something else.

I'm not a communist.
And define "work".