Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west?

[Agymnum]

For the Holodomor? Those estimates are bullshit.

seems to me you are a Stalinist as whenever somebody says something you don't like you call it bullshit. No evidence provided just "i don't think that so it is bullshit". So you have personally counted all the dead body's then? found every burial pit and cemetery where the victims are buried? dug up the whole of the Ukraine and dated the bodies found?

Calling your opponents things they are not is a great way to make enemies on NSG. I would advise against it.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

For the Holodomor? Those estimates are bullshit.

seems to me you are a Stalinist as whenever somebody says something you don't like you call it bullshit.

No. I detest Stalin. I'm just not willing to compromise basic historical integrity by lying and/or making stuff up.

No evidence provided just "i don't think that so it is bullshit". So you have personally counted all the dead body's then? found every burial pit and cemetery where the victims are buried? dug up the whole of the Ukraine and dated the bodies found?

No, because direct empiricism is not the only way of deducing things.

I have, however, read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder (I think that's the name), which provides the 3 million-ish estimate. You've provided nothing.

[Ovisterra]

For the Holodomor? Those estimates are bullshit.

seems to me you are a Stalinist as whenever somebody says something you don't like you call it bullshit. No evidence provided just "i don't think that so it is bullshit". So you have personally counted all the dead body's then? found every burial pit and cemetery where the victims are buried? dug up the whole of the Ukraine and dated the bodies found?

It seems to me that you are a magical unicorn.

Look, I can say random, untrue things too.

[Trotskylvania]

some Estimates range up to about 8 million.

The holodomor was the stalinist collectivization, not the genocide.

No, the Holodomor was the famine induced and exacerbated by Stalinist collectivization in Ukraine.

There's been a lot of work to make Ukrainians the only, or at least the primary, victims of collectivization in recent years, and it does a great service to everyone victimized by it.

[Airstrip II]

Both in and out of character: No. Absolutely not.

[Imperiatom]

Yes i am saying that since Marxism is probably impossible to bring into reality then it is describing something that never has existed or will likely exist. But if a nations sated aim is to achieve communism then it does not matter how far they got as long they were aiming for communism and so they are communist.

So if a nation aims to achieve democracy by killing all anti-democratic dissidents in order to establish a stable nation upon which democracy can exist, it's obviously democratic since they were aiming for democracy.

Your argument is not holding up well when applied to other ideologies. Communism is not special. Those who claim they are communist but don't instigate communist reform are not really communists. Just like how those who claim they are democratic but don't instigate democratic reform are not really democratic.

What a novel interpretation, this is.

If they are a threat to individual freedoms and rule by parliamentary democracy then maybe it is. I point you in the direction of modern day Germany as a nation that has outlawed a particular party yet is democratic.

[Individual]

Yes, and I am sure you can source that.

Robert Conquest, Preface, The Great Terror: A Reassessment: 40th Anniversary Edition, Oxford University Press, USA, 2007. p. xviii

Robert Gellately. Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe. Knopf, 2007 ISBN 1-4000-4005-1 p. 584: "More recent estimations of the Soviet-on-Soviet killing have been more 'modest' and range between ten and twenty million."

Thank you so very much, Comrade T.

[Trotskylvania]

Robert Conquest, Preface, The Great Terror: A Reassessment: 40th Anniversary Edition, Oxford University Press, USA, 2007. p. xviii

Robert Gellately. Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe. Knopf, 2007 ISBN 1-4000-4005-1 p. 584: "More recent estimations of the Soviet-on-Soviet killing have been more 'modest' and range between ten and twenty million."

Thank you so very much, Comrade T.

You're welcome.

[Imperiatom]

How any of those qualify as a nation when none of them won their bid for "freedom" i don't know. Were any recognized by a majority of the worlds nations?

Except the "nation", as in the nation-state, is a concept alien to communism, so by definition there have been none. There have been societies, cities and polities, but not nation-states.

And of course they weren't recognised by a world dominated by capitalist states, why the hell would they have been?

The Nation would be an area of land that was under the sway of communism and was recognized or left alone by the other nations of the world. By definition the nation does exist but the communists would not recognize their own nations existence.

[Agymnum]

So if a nation aims to achieve democracy by killing all anti-democratic dissidents in order to establish a stable nation upon which democracy can exist, it's obviously democratic since they were aiming for democracy.

Your argument is not holding up well when applied to other ideologies. Communism is not special. Those who claim they are communist but don't instigate communist reform are not really communists. Just like how those who claim they are democratic but don't instigate democratic reform are not really democratic.

What a novel interpretation, this is.

If they are a threat to individual freedoms and rule by parliamentary democracy then maybe it is. I point you in the direction of modern day Germany as a nation that has outlawed a particular party yet is democratic.

The outlawing of the Nazi Party in Germany is a disgrace to democracy.

You do not beat your enemies by stooping to their level. You beat them by rising above. Democratic nations are inherently better because people enjoy living there voluntarily. They do not seek Nazism in large numbers because democracy is better able to provide for them.

By banning Nazism, Germany is expressing a fear that their democracy is unable to satisfy the people to the point where they will turn to Nazism. That means Germany's democracy is doing something wrong.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

[Chinese Regions]

Then it wouldn't be a democracy would it?

[Individual]

The holodomor was the stalinist collectivization, not the genocide.

No, the Holodomor was the famine induced and exacerbated by Stalinist collectivization in Ukraine.

There's been a lot of work to make Ukrainians the only, or at least the primary, victims of collectivization in recent years, and it does a great service to everyone victimized by it.

I seriously need to study on this so I will not be mistaken for a third time in the near future...

[Bojikami]

It would be good if it did happen. Here's why:


NOT ALL COMMUNISTS ARE STALIN, MAO, KIM JONG-UN OR THOSE OTHER DICTATORS.

[United Marxist Nations]

There seems to be no poll option for communists to pick.

[Phocidaea]

So who're those 8 + 2 votes for banning the parties or executing their members?

I'm guessing Hippostania was one of the "kill the pinkos" voters, who else?

[Agymnum]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

Exactly. This is how you show true democracy. Give the people a choice, and let them decide. That is true democracy.

None of this "well I'm protecting the people" bullshit. That's the kind of justification dictators use when they censor the media and ban parties and ideologies.

[New Chalcedon]

seems to me you are a Stalinist as whenever somebody says something you don't like you call it bullshit. No evidence provided just "i don't think that so it is bullshit". So you have personally counted all the dead body's then? found every burial pit and cemetery where the victims are buried? dug up the whole of the Ukraine and dated the bodies found?

Calling your opponents things they are not is a great way to make enemies on NSG. I would advise against it.

He already repeatedly strawmanned me on the other bullshit thread he started. I was not impressed, to say the least.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

Except the communist and democratic sectors would overlap somewhat. By which I mean a lot.

[Agymnum]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

Except the communist and democratic sectors would overlap somewhat. By which I mean a lot.

So democratic socialist/communist and democratic capitalist/free market sectors?

The fascists would feel so left out.

[Chinese Regions]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

Each nation should certainly allow fascism and communism, why should they have to have fascist and communist parties, if communists and fascists can't persuade the populace to vote form for them let alone and form a party, tough.

[Imperiatom]

seems to me you are a Stalinist as whenever somebody says something you don't like you call it bullshit.

No. I detest Stalin. I'm just not willing to compromise basic historical integrity by lying and/or making stuff up.

No evidence provided just "i don't think that so it is bullshit". So you have personally counted all the dead body's then? found every burial pit and cemetery where the victims are buried? dug up the whole of the Ukraine and dated the bodies found?

No, because direct empiricism is not the only way of deducing things.

I have, however, read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder (I think that's the name), which provides the 3 million-ish estimate. You've provided nothing.

Ah by strange coincidence i am reading Bloodlands at the moment. He does produce compelling evidence but the fact that so many other estimates are out there leaves open all possibilities from between 2-8 million.

[United Commonwealths of America]

Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west is the question, and if so how tough?
I am interested to find out what the members of nation states feel about this. As if the communists ever took power i doubt we could use this site as we do presently. The outlawing of other political party's would i believe occur, swiftly followed by the repression of free speech and expression. Given that the attitude of the communists is my way or the highway( Road of bones- for those who don't understand my pun) should we tolerate them or should we crack down on them as Germany does for example on Nazi ideology.

I am torn between Keeping the status quo or outlawing the party.

Well, not all Communist parties wish to outlaw the freedom of expression or remove democracy. In fact, i dont know a single party signing up for elections that would want that (maybe those who get 2, 3 votes). i think that any party that advocates single party control should be excluded from elections though.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

No. And fascist parties should be allowed to operate normally.
Each nation should have sections devoted to fascist, communist and democratic thought.

Except the communist and democratic sectors would overlap somewhat. By which I mean a lot.

Irrelevant. Overlap or no, they should all be legal.

[Ainin]

Should democracy get tough on communist party's in the west is the question, and if so how tough?
I am interested to find out what the members of nation states feel about this. As if the communists ever took power i doubt we could use this site as we do presently.

You do realize communists are in power in numerous nations RIGHT NOW, right?

The outlawing of other political party's would i believe occur, swiftly followed by the repression of free speech and expression.

Meh.

Given that the attitude of the communists is my way or the highway( Road of bones- for those who don't understand my pun) should we tolerate them or should we crack down on them as Germany does for example on Nazi ideology.

"My way or the highway" is the current right-wing American ideology as well. Should we crack down on Republicans? No.

I am torn between Keeping the status quo or outlawing the party.

The Communist Party USA is barely social democratic.

Also, lrn2grammar.