Those who are opposed to socialism.

[Azurand]

Sure, communism has damaged every nation it touched, but it wasn't REAL communism like Marx intended it to be!
Of course it was non-communism, a fake copycat of true hardcore communism explained by Karl Marx in his manifesto within the ten planks of the communist manifesto to be precise!

Nooow, let's look at the ten points of the communist manifesto written in 1848 by Karl Heinrich Marx and a non-communist country, the soviet union:

Really you want to argue with a Stalinist on the matter?

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

[Souseiseki]

Into debt, unemployment and social degradation ? Aye.. capitalism helps.. the big industrialists and the bankers.

it makes food cheap. boss buy tech it makes the job nicer.
Do workers in the nk have AC? NO
Do workers in the nk have computers ? NO
Do workers in the nk have get the weekend? NO
Do i have it yes.

did you seriously pull the you think capitalism is bad, hmm? well what about a little place called NORTH KOREA?! card

[CTALNH]

Into debt, unemployment and social degradation ? Aye.. capitalism helps.. the big industrialists and the bankers.

it makes food cheap. boss buy tech it makes the job nicer.
Do workers in the nk have AC? NO
Do workers in the nk have computers ? NO
Do workers in the nk have get the weekend? NO
Do i have it yes.

Actually they have all of those....

They have AC
They have their own government propaganda INTERNET like China does
And weekends?

[Free Tristania]

Into debt, unemployment and social degradation ? Aye.. capitalism helps.. the big industrialists and the bankers.

it makes food cheap. boss buy tech it makes the job nicer.
Do workers in the nk have AC? NO
Do workers in the nk have computers ? NO
Do workers in the nk have get the weekend? NO
Do i have it yes.

For now. Give the bankers five more years and your job is in China and you're in the soup line. NK isn't communist btw - it's a semi-monarchical thing that is more based on a perverted kind of racism and Confucianism.

[Heavenly Peace]

The best way to ensure political freedom is to allow for economic freedom too. I am, therefore, opposed to socialism.

[Souseiseki]

The best way to ensure political freedom is to allow for economic freedom too. I am, therefore, opposed to socialism.

free-market socialism :-)

[Ksclve]

Because none of those things existed under the Soviet Union, amirite?

oh shit. well then i guess capitalism is just the best. thoroughly debunked. 10/10. god save the queen.

What are you doing?
You brought the crime issue up. He merely countered your argument.

no reason to act like a spoiled kid.

[CTALNH]

Really you want to argue with a Stalinist on the matter?

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

Wait isn't that the point of the first phase of communism?
Anti theism and the destruction of the old system?

[Old Tyrannia]

Sure, communism has damaged every nation it touched, but it wasn't REAL communism like Marx intended it to be!
Of course it was non-communism, a fake copycat of true hardcore communism explained by Karl Marx in his manifesto within the ten planks of the communist manifesto to be precise!

Nooow, let's look at the ten points of the communist manifesto written in 1848 by Karl Heinrich Marx and a non-communist country, the soviet union:

Really you want to argue with a Stalinist on the matter?

You know you're in the wrong when you hope to "win" arguments by putting people off arguing with you by drawing attention to your sheer fanaticism and the craziness of your beliefs.

capitalism helps the proletariat workers.

Sure it helps the workers into wage slavery....

As opposed to, y'know, actual slavery.

I remain of the opinion that laissez-faire capitalism and communism are equally terrible systems and that some form of mixed market or other "compromise" system is the best way forward. Contrary to popular belief, you can have your cake and eat it.

[Duvniask]

The best way to ensure political freedom is to allow for economic freedom too. I am, therefore, opposed to socialism.

It just so happens, that I think of socialism as allowing true economic freedom, not your "free market liberalism", if you will.

The best way to ensure political freedom is to allow for economic freedom too. I am, therefore, opposed to socialism.

free-market socialism :-)

Ditto.

[Geo]

All too often, we find people ranting about how oppressive socialism and communism are, even as they demonstrate beliefs that would suppress lifestyles that they do not personally approve of. Looking at a page where a mass of people were sharing their anti-communist beliefs, it was found after a series of questions that everyone participating was a monarchist, a supporter of theocracy, a militant, or an imperialist. Now how can it be that people see it fit to call one system, of which they have not read the literature of, oppressive while at the same time claiming that they can save you from that oppression with another style of repressiveness?

The answer for that question is, quite simply, ignorance. As you already mentioned, most of them haven't read the literature produced by Marx, Engels, Lenin and other communists and socialists to have a proper understanding of communism as a whole. Most of them see Das Kapital as christians see the Satanic Bible -- dangerous heresy that can infect you. Not all forms of communist and socialist thought are authoritarian or dictatorial. Good examples of such anti-authoritarian communists and socialists are Eduard Bernstein, Karl Kautsky and other social democrats, Daniel De Leon, Mikhail Bakunin, Pyotr Kropotkin and other anarcho-communists, Rosa Luxemburg, Leon Trotsky, Karl Liebknecht, Otto Rühle, Jan Appel, Herbert Marcuse and other advocates for left communism, council communism, western marxism, libertarian marxism, other forms of libertarian socialism and the Frankfurt School. I admire them for their libertarianism and anarchism, but nothing else.

I am not here to target those whom are opposed to socialism and communism, but you must understand where others like me are coming from. We have seen the use of religion, economics, and fear used to control populations throughout the many thousands of years of history, planned exactly the way they happened, and starting wars and mass murders. On the other hand, we have only seen socialism and communism used for roughly a century plus a few years, and it has not even been implemented the way it is supposed to be according to the original socialist thinkers which most people of the ideology base their ideals off of. Most communists, in fact, hate Stalin. Most socialists are opposed to North Korea (okay, this part is just based off of those which I talk to on a frequent basis), and most of them certainly wouldn't call China communist. In fact, if you actually believe that China is communist, I recommend that you read the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital immediately. Upon doing that, you will see that China cannot be communist, especially account of allowing McDonald's restaurants to open up within their cities.

Socialist and communist systems were popping up because it is easy to trick people to think you are for them and then start up a dictatorship, which is not of the proletariat but instead of the assholes. It is good for socialists and communists to know who they are supporting, since most supporters think of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Bakunin being thoroughly clean. For instance, Marx was a russophobe^{[Marx and Russia, Vesa Oittinen, ISBN 952-10-2870-X]}, Engels was a homophobe as were most marxist-leninists at that time^[1], Lenin was an authoritarian bastard, for example in the case of the Makhnos and various other Ukrainian and also Russian anarchists, also for his own people as well and Bakunin held some anti-semitic sentiments^[2], although they were not central in his work because, well, he WAS an anarcho-communist.

The so-called 'communist' nations of the past being authoritarian dictatorships of the present (most, but not all, like Vietnam being a republic as well as Venezuela). Cuba, China, North Korea, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Laos being very good examples of such nations. The reason this happens most of the time is because of the instability of communism: a lot of trust needs to be put on the people for it to stay communist.

So here's a question for all of you: are you opposed to socialism and communism? If so, then what do you believe to be the best form of economics, and what is your favourite form of government?

Yes, I am opposed more to communism than to socialism due to their instability going higher with their increased extremity. An ideal state, should it even exist on the face of Earth, would be a third way centrist libertarian secular republic. As I am an egoist, the ideal society to me would be an anarchy or an autarchy, which egoism doesn't need necessarily but it is the only society worth to fight for.

[Harkback Union]

it makes food cheap. boss buy tech it makes the job nicer.
Do workers in the nk have AC? NO
Do workers in the nk have computers ? NO
Do workers in the nk have get the weekend? NO
Do i have it yes.

did you seriously pull the you think capitalism is bad, hmm? well what about a little place called NORTH KOREA?! card

Ahahah! Planned economy alone isn't communism.
When it comes to equality, Even the US Is closer to communism than North Korea.

[Vistevik]

capitalism helps the proletariat workers.

Sure it helps the workers into wage slavery....

Well spoken.

[Souseiseki]

oh shit. well then i guess capitalism is just the best. thoroughly debunked. 10/10. god save the queen.

What are you doing?
You brought the crime issue up. He merely countered your argument.

no reason to act like a spoiled kid.

no i didn't bring up the crime issue, actually

it's just that "this system has these problems" cannot be countered with "huh?! well they were also present in this system! hah!" for really fucking obvious reasons. but that's less fun to type.

[Ksclve]

Really you want to argue with a Stalinist on the matter?

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

So..you don't like the good things?

[Ksclve]

What are you doing?
You brought the crime issue up. He merely countered your argument.

no reason to act like a spoiled kid.

no i didn't bring up the crime issue, actually

it's just that "this system has these problems" cannot be countered with "huh?! well they were also present in this system! hah!" for really fucking obvious reasons. but that's less fun to type.

No, it's a very valid argument. The crime was widespread during the Soviet times and current situation is mostly because of that.
We are not talking about hypothetical situations now.

[CTALNH]

Really you want to argue with a Stalinist on the matter?

You know you're in the wrong when you hope to "win" arguments by putting people off arguing with you by drawing attention to your sheer fanaticism and the craziness of your beliefs.

So what? 5% of my country does it every time we vote for KKE.

[Geo]

The problem isn't the ideology. It's how it worked out in practice.

Sure, on paper, it's super-duper awesomesauce, but, every time it's been practiced, it was an utter failure.

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America? -Fidel Castro

And that is why we should find a third way (or a fourth way, if third position counts as a third extreme among laissez-faire and communism).

[NEETopia]

I just noticed that some people have a Che Guevara quote in their signature, may i add my favorite quotes of his, to make this thread more pleasant?

From the motrocycle diaries:

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing, have seen their territory invaded by a new kind of slave: the Portuguese." (p. 161)

"The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving, which has pursued him as far as this corner of America and drives him to advance himself, even independently of his own individual aspirations." (p. 161)

"The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each, bringing our total to 479 for me and 163 1/2 to Alberto." (p. 150)

"The first person we hit on was the mayor, someone called Cohen; we had heard a lot about him, that he was Jewish as far as money was concerned but a good sort." (p. 139)

"The somewhat animal-like concept the indigenous people have of modesty and hygiene means that irrespective of gender or age they do their business by the roadside, the women cleaning themselves with their skirts, the men not bothering at all, and then carry on as before." (p. 116)

[Nidaria]

I oppose socialism and communism because they give the government too much authority over the economy (I am not referring to anarchist variants here). Such power will result in greed and power struggles, causing the entire country to suffer. In addition, they violate the rights of the populace to engage in business freely, and centralize the economy too much. Finally, socialism and communism are usually in conflict with traditionalism.

[Zweite Alaje]

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

Wait isn't that the point of the first phase of communism?
Anti theism and the destruction of the old system?

Communism, and Socialism as a whole,isn't necessarily opposed to religion or sprituality.

Ah, CTALNH, still posing as a socialist I see.

[CTALNH]

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America? -Fidel Castro

And that is why we should find a third way (or a fourth way, if third position counts as a third extreme among laissez-faire and communism).

No!

The end of capitalism and its political bourgeoisie democracy counter part and the market economic system us a whole is the salvation of humanity.

[Maledixit]

They talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America? -Fidel Castro

And that is why we should find a third way (or a fourth way, if third position counts as a third extreme among laissez-faire and communism).

To point out the obvious, it doesn't matter how many 'ways' one implements, they all suffer from the same thing. They all designate a victim population, and overzealously blame it on a parasitic element. Any system that can axe that mindset, is on the way to success.

[Azurand]

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

Wait isn't that the point of the first phase of communism?
Anti theism and the destruction of the old system?

Exactly

[Azurand]

The only things I have against Stalinism is antitheism and destruction of old system.

The Overlord approves.

So..you don't like the good things?

I like kittens. They're cute.

Is that counts?