The North Korea Juche Songun Anti-Imperialist Megathread

[The Whispers]

M'kay so I was reading a news source and a paragraph or two caught my attention.
Source

However, the ordinary North Korean people are not the brainwashed robots that they are often portrayed as. North Korean refugees have described to me how increasing numbers of people are learning about the outside world through dramas and films smuggled into the country on DVDs or USBs, or are learning of the reality of China or even South Korea through word of mouth.

A combination of grassroots social change phenomena that have emerged over the last decade, including bottom-up marketisation, an explosion of corruption, and increased interaction with the outside world through various channels has the net result of people increasingly separating off from the regime - both physically and psychologically - although the repression is still too brutally effective to allow for any public demonstrations of discontent.

That certainly fits a very Arab Spring-inspired narrative, but as with all of these things, you have to wonder how much of this is really true.

I doubt very much that the North Koreans are "Brainwashed", that being a made-up thing from the 1950s Korean War anyway. But I don't think there's going to be a revolution by the USB-port owning class. I'll wager that many of the people coming over as refugees are spies or ex-spies, and frankly you can't trust either, because it's not so much an occupation as a lifestyle choice.

"It'll be piss easy, just show up and take over and appoint me as a minister for giving you this totally rad intelligence etc., yeah?"
"THEY'RE WAITING FOR US TO SHOW UP? GREAT!"
"Yeah just err don't forget what I said or anything, right?"

[The Whispers]

Huh? I said that their cultures are largely similar.

As with all cultural things, I'm sure that for some South and North Koreans, there will be a shared cultural bond, but for others, there will not.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Am I the only one that's kinda sad? Not because I'm some kind of masochist that enjoys watching countries going to war, but because if NK ever provoked the U.S. it would mean liberation and relief for the oppressed northerners?

Doubt it. Most South Koreans, from what I've learned from new reports, don't want reunification. Mostly because they know the South Korean economy can't afford to absorb 30 million plus destitute, poverty-stricken, starving North Koreans. Not to mention absorbing an area larger than their own country with little modern infrastructure and modern amenities.

As nice as it would be, reunification would probably hurt the South Korean economy significantly. And that's after a war that would have decimated their economy already.

What I posted earlier about South Korean's desire for reunification.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Any reunification of Korea is going to be an international effort of decades. It's not just a question of the drastic difference in standard of living, it's also that after the last 50 years North and South have pretty much completely separate cultures.

Reunification is essentially going to be South Korea trying to assimilate a culturally alien third world country.

Eh, not as much as you think.

Same language, same holidays (minus like Kim Il-sung's birthday and all that crap), same hatred for the Japanese, same cuisine, same racial nationalism, etc.

You forgot hatred of Chinese.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Eh, not as much as you think.

Same language, same holidays (minus like Kim Il-sung's birthday and all that crap), same hatred for the Japanese, same cuisine, same racial nationalism, etc.

I think the complete and total devotion of the North Koreans to the Kim family, especially Kim il-Sung, would trump all of that and more.

I believe this supports my statement.

Vietnam is very much right on this one.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Huh? And your point is?

I was claiming that the north and south aren't as culturally alien as Myrensis thinks they are.

My point is that just because much of the culture is the same doesn't mean that integration would be any easier.

Judging from how quickly North Korean refugees realize that their world view has been twisted from all the years of propaganda, and adapt to the new realities that they face, years of propaganda won't be as a big of a problem you think it would be. Economic realities of an impoverished North Korean class in economically well off South Korea, leading to discontent and rift between people, is however, a very big concern. I, however, disagree with ABC's assertion that maintaining a colony-like puppet state would be a desirable thing.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Eh, not as much as you think.

Same language, same holidays (minus like Kim Il-sung's birthday and all that crap), same hatred for the Japanese, same cuisine, same racial nationalism, etc.

I think the complete and total devotion of the North Koreans to the Kim family...

Nope.

[Coenston]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Just my 2 cents. North korea will not go to war without the support of China, and China will not let North Korea's regime whither.

The logic? Simple...

China is maintaining border defense by using North Korea as her buffer from the greater influence from the US and the rest of the country that shares different policies. If the North goes united with the South thru the effort of the US, then China's right wing will be vulnerable to foreign claws resulting to propaganda that can disturb her political structure.

In China's point of view, except economy, the west is a threat to her stability.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Just my 2 cents. North korea will not go to war without the support of China, and China will not let North Korea's regime whither.

The logic? Simple...

China is maintaining border defense by using North Korea as her buffer from the greater influence from the US and the rest of the country that shares different policies. If the North goes united with the South thru the effort of the US, then China's right wing will be vulnerable to foreign claws resulting to propaganda that can disturb her political structure.

In China's point of view, except economy, the west is a threat to her stability.

Yeah I'm pretty sure you don't know shit about China's broader international goals.

They also have precious little tolerance for the DPRK, especially lately.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Is US media hyper worried about North Korean threat? Yes, absolutely. No doubt.

Are North Korean threats, their missile capabilities and their nuclear bomb capabilities exaggerated by the news in the West? No. So far, they have been pretty accurate. They haven't distorted any reports broadcast from KCNA regarding the current crisis.

**By the way, about the most recent DIA report that was leaked by some staffer on the hill, and the finger pointing between the agencies with competing views on NK nukes: That is nothing more than a proxy budget fight over cuts in ballistic missile defense program that Obama administration has proposed.

[Coenston]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Just my 2 cents. North korea will not go to war without the support of China, and China will not let North Korea's regime whither.

The logic? Simple...

China is maintaining border defense by using North Korea as her buffer from the greater influence from the US and the rest of the country that shares different policies. If the North goes united with the South thru the effort of the US, then China's right wing will be vulnerable to foreign claws resulting to propaganda that can disturb her political structure.

In China's point of view, except economy, the west is a threat to her stability.

Yeah I'm pretty sure you don't know shit about China's broader international goals.

They also have precious little tolerance for the DPRK, especially lately.

Well then do you have idea about your so called chinese broader international goals and the lit tle tolerance?

I hope your sources are not CNN, Fox News or Aljazeera. :-)

[Coenston]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Is US media hyper worried about North Korean threat? Yes, absolutely. No doubt.

Are North Korean threats, their missile capabilities and their nuclear bomb capabilities exaggerated by the news in the West? No. So far, they have been pretty accurate. They haven't distorted any reports broadcast from KCNA regarding the current crisis.

I think that the public fail to see the bigger picture. Is it really accurately described as you claimed?

What bothers me is that they reported the news that there was a scud missle and bio weaponry hidden in Iraq sometime in the past. They even showed a computerized images of it. Sadam Hussein died along with his 2 sons years from now, but I can not find any article or broadcast that justified the accusation. Poor Sadam... And what about Osama Bin Laden?

Anything goes unanswered are deemed classified, and when brought to trial for further details, "A threat to National Security" shuts everybody's mouth.

How easy it is to mislead the public nowadays...

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Is US media hyper worried about North Korean threat? Yes, absolutely. No doubt.

Are North Korean threats, their missile capabilities and their nuclear bomb capabilities exaggerated by the news in the West? No. So far, they have been pretty accurate. They haven't distorted any reports broadcast from KCNA regarding the current crisis.

I think that the public fail to see the bigger picture. Is it really accurately described as you claimed?

What bothers me is that they reported the news that there was a scud missle

Iraq did have Scuds - they used them in the '80s against Iran. Post-Gulf War analysis by the USAF (in 1994 or so, mind, so before Bush Jr.) said that Iraq still had at least 60 missiles.

and bio weaponry hidden in Iraq sometime in the past.

There may not have been bio, but there was chem stuff - look up Halabja.
Although by 2003, it seems they had used it all up.

They even showed a computerized images of it. Sadam Hussein died along with his 2 sons years from now, but I can not find any article or broadcast that justified the accusation.

...You seriously can't find a single account or confirmed event that gives the impression Saddam and his fuckwit sons were shit and deserved justice?
Look harder.

Poor Sadam...

Yeah, the poor war criminal who gassed thousands and invaded Kuwait because he needed cash and an image makeover.

And what about Osama Bin Laden?

Anything goes unanswered are deemed classified, and when brought to trial for a further details, "A threat to National Security" shuts everybody's mouth.

If you're trying to convince us of something, you should probably bring up an actual issue.
For the record, Bin Ladens's people took credit for 9/11.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

I think that the public fail to see the bigger picture. Is it really accurately described as you claimed?

How do YOU see the bigger picture?

What bothers me is that they reported the news that there was a scud missle and bio weaponry hidden in Iraq sometime in the past. They even showed a computerized images of it. Sadam Hussein died along with his 2 sons years from now, but I can not find any article or broadcast that justified the accusation. Poor Sadam... And what about Osama Bin Laden?

Poor Saddam? Poor Bin Laden? You serious?

[United Kingdom of Poland]

Is US media hyper worried about North Korean threat? Yes, absolutely. No doubt.

Are North Korean threats, their missile capabilities and their nuclear bomb capabilities exaggerated by the news in the West? No. So far, they have been pretty accurate. They haven't distorted any reports broadcast from KCNA regarding the current crisis.

I think that the public fail to see the bigger picture. Is it really accurately described as you claimed?

What bothers me is that they reported the news that there was a scud missle and bio weaponry hidden in Iraq sometime in the past. They even showed a computerized images of it. Sadam Hussein died along with his 2 sons years from now, but I can not find any article or broadcast that justified the accusation. Poor Sadam... And what about Osama Bin Laden?

Anything goes unanswered are deemed classified, and when brought to trial for a further details, "A threat to National Security" shuts everybody's mouth.

what about bin laden, he helped plan the deaths of 3000 americans and the injures to many more, he got off easy if you ask me.

[Coenston]

Do I sound like I am sympathising Sadam or Bin Laden to you?

We started the news with proof and evidences and must also conclude it with facts. If we start broadcasting for example, in CNN, then we might as well conclude in CNN right? Not other links or stuff.

Claiming that there were 60 scuds left, but where is the account for that? Did they broadcast live and showing the public, "Here are the scuds were talking about? It's all about proof. Without proof, people tend to have their own personal conclusion.

It all started with the news media and we stick to the news media discussion. It's ridiculous to think that this discussion winded down to siding who, sympathising for, or proving something about the issue. It's the NEWS MEDIA and how they handle it. Simple, isn't it?

Why complicate things?

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Do I sound like I am sympathising Sadam or Bin Laden to you?

We started the news with proof and evidences and must also conclude it with facts. If we start broadcasting for example, in CNN, then we might as well conclude in CNN right? Not other links or stuff.

Claiming that there were 60 scuds left, but where is the account for that? Did they broadcast live and showing the public, "Here are the scuds were talking about? It's all about proof. Without proof, people tend to have their own personal conclusion.

It all started with the news media and we stick to the news media discussion. It's ridiculous to think that this discussion winded down to siding who, sympathising for, or proving something about the issue. It's the NEWS MEDIA and how they handle it. Simple, isn't it?

Why complicate things?

If that's all your interested in, see my post. That should be an adequate answer.

[Coenston]

And by the way, I can'y help but notice this...

Yeah I'm pretty sure you don't know shit about China's broader international goals.

They also have precious little tolerance for the DPRK, especially lately.

and this...

...You seriously can't find a single account or confirmed event that gives the impression Saddam and his [b]fuckwit[/b} sons were [s]shit[/s] and deserved justice?
Look harder.

Forum is all about discussion, exchange of views, and gather comments as a community. We are all here to have fun and enjoy each others company as we all share one common interest, playing Nation States. What sadden people like me is having such tactless and unhealthy remarks. Every issue has its own ideas, and if that clashes with our views and personal belief, we still have to remain Objective and Factual. Flaring up such a distasteful remarks, even if its just a fad in the speech shows your being immature and uncivilized to handle things.

Seriously, do this forum allow profane languages?

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Seriously, do this forum allow profane languages?

Yep. Get used to it if you're going to stick around.

[Mkuki]

I think the news about the north korean threat are exagerrated by the news in the west.

Very much so. Slow news days and all...

Just my 2 cents. North korea will not go to war without the support of China, and China will not let North Korea's regime whither.

Anybody with a functioning brain and memory can see this.

China is maintaining border defense by using North Korea as her buffer from the greater influence from the US and the rest of the country that shares different policies. If the North goes united with the South thru the effort of the US, then China's right wing will be vulnerable to foreign claws resulting to propaganda that can disturb her political structure.

Such a silly theory. In case you haven't noticed it isn't 1950 anymore. The Chinese government has no reason to fear a united Korea on their eastern border. The struggle to rebuild North Korea and adequately take care of the now "liberated" North Koreans would take decades for South Korea to accomplish. Those old, Cold War era theories of grand strategy have no place in modern warfare.

And, in case you haven't noticed, the Chinese government has done a pretty good job of keeping down dissent and any possible threats to their rule.

In China's point of view, except economy, the west is a threat to her stability.

Hardly. The fact that the US of all places continues to trade with the PRC, especially since it claims to be the beacon of freedom and human rights for the world, means that China has little reason to fear for her stability. If the Chinese economy were to fall apart, though, then they actually would have a reason to fear American influence.

[Vietnam]

Eh, not as much as you think.

Same language, same holidays (minus like Kim Il-sung's birthday and all that crap), same hatred for the Japanese, same cuisine, same racial nationalism, etc.

You forgot hatred of Chinese.

Oh right, can't forget about them jjangkke :v

[Vietnam]

For those who still think that North Korea likes China, here's a nice article.

[Untaroicht]

Oh good god I just realized a POSSIBLE apocalyptic nightmare scenario which would ultimately play out only if...

North korea does NOT start a war.

It's detailed here: (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/13/opinion/g ... index.html) but basically if they don't start a war, then basically every tin-pot totalitarian banana republic on the face of the planet will realize that no matter how tiny or bad your country is, if you have nuclear capabilities, countries that could topple your regime with a tiny fraction of their power suddenly become afraid of making you angry.

Can you imagine the apocalyptic nightmare scenario that would unfold if EVERY heck-hole country on the planet got a nuclear arsenal after getting the inspiration from these recent events and started issuing demand after demand from the more pacifist nations and threat after threat of nuclear war?!

Can you imagine how screwed up international diplomacy would be if, say, 15 third-world countries in africa with nuclear weapons threatened to launch their weapons if we didn't do EXACTLY as they said?!

Can you imagine if some of those countries got their hands on nuclear weapons and were crazy and suicidal enough to launch them if their demands are either ignored or answered to anyways?!

It may not happen in any of our lifetimes, but it COULD happen eventually, and when it would happen, civilization as we know it would crumble.

THAT is why we need to steam-roll the korean peninsula north of the 38th parallel. This turn of events could indirectly cause World War III if we do not completely vaporize the Kim Jong regime before any other dictatorships start getting any funny ideas.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

For those who still think that North Korea likes China, here's a nice article.

How Mao described China and North Korea's relationship is unintentionally on point. Chun Wang Chi Han, meaning "if the lips are gone, the teeth will be cold" (which was recorded as a conciliatory message between the states of Jin and Yu, incidentally) indicates that without one, the other will be in trouble, but the phrase Chun Chi Xiang Yi is more commonly used by Chinese diplomats, meaning that North Korea and China are as "close as lips and teeth", a much warmer and friendlier phrase. Both have been referred to often, but the former phrase denotes a relationship of convenience and mutual benefit, and that's what it was since the anti-Japanese movement, with Kim Il-sung aligning himself with the CCP in order to oppose their common enemy; the Japanese in Manchuria. There may have been a sense of comradery at high points in their relationship, but it's always been punctuated by distrust and suspicion of the other's intentions, which has only been exacerbated by the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and China's economic and diplomatic reforms.

[Vietnam]

For those who still think that North Korea likes China, here's a nice article.

How Mao described China and North Korea's relationship is unintentionally on point. Chunwangchihan, meaning "if the lips are gone, the teeth will be cold" (which was recorded as a conciliatory message between the states of Jin and Yu, incidentally) indicates that without one, the other will be in trouble, but is more commonly interpreted as meaning that North Korea and China are as "close as lips and teeth", a much warmer and friendlier phrase. It's been used both ways, but the former phrase denotes a relationship of convenience and mutual benefit, and that's what it was since the anti-Japanese movement, with Kim Il-sung aligning himself with the CCP in order to oppose their common enemy, the Japanese in Manchuria. There may have been a sense of comradery at high points in their relationship, but it's always been punctuated by distrust and suspicion of the other's intentions, which has only been exacerbated by the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and China's economic and diplomatic reforms.

i'm still waiting for that confucian influence on north korea joseon ;_;