The feminisation of education

[Saxemberg]

My Western Civ II class focuses on feminism during the era... it makes me a sad panda.

Why? Why shouldn't it focus on feminism? The gender revolution of the late 19th and 20th centuries is one of the most momentous events in Western history.

Now, that said--it shouldn't focus exclusively on feminism. Assuming that this is a standard "Fall of the Bastille to the fall of the Berlin Wall" Modern Western Civ course, there are plenty of other topics that your professor should be addressing as well.

But the changing status of women makes as good a central theme for such a course as any.

[Kashindahar]

My Western Civ II class focuses on feminism during the era... it makes me a sad panda.

Why? Why shouldn't it focus on feminism? The gender revolution of the late 19th and 20th centuries is one of the most momentous events in Western history.

Now, that said--it shouldn't focus exclusively on feminism. Assuming that this is a standard "Fall of the Bastille to the fall of the Berlin Wall" Modern Western Civ course, there are plenty of other topics that your professor should be addressing as well.

But the changing status of women makes as good a central theme for such a course as any.

At the risk of being entirely wrong, I read it as Macabees being saddened by the plight of women during that era rather than feminism being the topic at all.

[Saxemberg]

What do you think is fuelling lower male enrollments?

The fact that we get 30% better wages without having to take out student loans and the like.

Really? Doing what, for example?

Even if what you say is true, all that suggests to me is that young males are short-sighted.

A recent OECD study revealed that, on average, male university graduates in the USA made nearly 370,000 dollars more, over their lifetimes, than non-graduates. Female university graduates made an additional 229,000 dollars.

Source: here.

[Yootopia]

What do you think is fuelling lower male enrollments?

The fact that we get 30% better wages without having to take out student loans and the like.

Really? Doing what, for example?... A recent OECD study revealed that, on average, male university graduates in the USA made nearly 370,000 dollars more, over their lifetimes, than non-graduates. Female university graduates made an additional 229,000 dollars.

Clearly almost anything.

I go to university myself, but I'm well aware that this is, at least in part, unnecessary if I simply want to earn more than a woman.

[Free Soviets]

I go to university myself, but I'm well aware that this is, at least in part, unnecessary if I simply want to earn more than a woman.

only within the same level of educational attainment and field, of course

[Neesika]

That would indicate to me that there actually is not a gender gap in higher education. Rather there is still a gender bias in professional training -- a divide between "women's jobs" and "men's jobs". I wonder, if we look at total enrollment numbers, instead of school-by-school enrollment numbers, would we see the supposed gender gap get narrower?

Total enrollment numbers indicate that women represent 58% of all students in post-secondary institutions here. So yes, a much narrower gender gap than high 70%s in certain faculties versus mid 20%s in others...but it was the 58% that was being reacted to initially anyway.

[LOL ANARCHY NUBZ]

I don't really see why it's a problem...

[Rentalia]

In my experience WOmen tend to apply themself more on study and have less opportunity outside education(in the western country ,except scandinavia, man have 15% more chance to get a job and 20% average wage)

[Peepelonia]

In the UK Nees it seems like the uptake of uni courses is more or less split equaly between the genders, but it is the types of courses appied for that we can see a difinitive split along gender lines. Males are more likely to go into the sciences or IT and females English, both seem geared towards media at around the same levels.

For many years over here we have had females doing better with their education than males, and for a long time it was the black males that come off worst. Now that is changing and it is white males that are doing worse in our schools.

[Eofaerwic]

For many years over here we have had females doing better with their education than males, and for a long time it was the black males that come off worst. Now that is changing and it is white males that are doing worse in our schools.

Specifically it has gone from being Afro-Carribean males (as opposed to Black Africans who have always done well), now it's white working class males who do badly. There is a very strong class effect in there.

[Greed and Death]

I think this has to do with admission standards and the like.
and the differences between how men and women approach academic life.
The last 20 years we have been emphasizing GPA and reducing emphasis standardized test scores.
For whatever reason, likely it is social, Women tend to produce a better GPA and men tend to do better on standardized test.

Short term universities could focus more on standardized test and less on GPA.
Long term we need to figure out what causes the differing behaviors between men and women and make moves to fix that if possible.

[Jordaxia]

Specifically it has gone from being Afro-Carribean males (as opposed to Black Africans who have always done well), now it's white working class males who do badly. There is a very strong class effect in there.

I've been saying that class plays a huge role in education for -ages- now, having been exposed to the kind of anti-intellectualism that a strong working class environment plays host to.

[Tahar Joblis]

I think this has to do with admission standards and the like.
and the differences between how men and women approach academic life.
The last 20 years we have been emphasizing GPA and reducing emphasis standardized test scores.
For whatever reason, likely it is social, Women tend to produce a better GPA and men tend to do better on standardized test.

Short term universities could focus more on standardized test and less on GPA.
Long term we need to figure out what causes the differing behaviors between men and women and make moves to fix that if possible.

Average male SAT score (2008, 3 parts): 1525
Average female SAT score (2008, 3 parts): 1500

That's really a very minimal difference. It used to be larger, but at the rate things are going, not even standardized tests will favor male students. The fact of the matter is, standardized tests have very little predictive power independent of other measurable factors (e.g., GPA), and the use of standardized tests had the primary effect of standing in as a "proxy" for social class and race.

I say this as someone who probably benefited from having a high SAT score during college admissions, and subsequently benefited by having a high GRE score during graduate school admissions, something I know was a factor in some schools even looking at my application.

No, I think we are seeing a decline in males within academics, with narrow exceptions (compsci, math, physics, engineering, philosophy) seeming to be more resistant to the influx of women into higher education. We might wish to blame Blizzard et al; addiction to gaming seems to provide much more of a distraction for males than females.

[JarVik]

[quote="Neesika";p="879627"]
So what do you think? Is this a problem? Is it really not okay for people running these post-secondary institutions to be worried about the gender gap? What do you think is fuelling lower male enrollments, and what sort of approaches do you think we may have to take if we believe the gender gap is a problem?

I have a few thoughts on the increasing female enrollment in post secondary.

1) The cult of stupid, or how it is cool to be an underachiver and uncool to have good grades etc for the male population in grade school and highschool. This was my personal experience anyways where guys in my class were often proud of their D status. I remember one guy I used to sit with whom was proud of the fact he had never read a book that hadn't been assigned in a class, and even then he'd try to find the movie version and skip reading the book. So some guys are purposely self destructing their early education as they perceive uncoolness being attached to smarts and good grades. I didn't think such atitudes were as prevalent in the female population in grade and highschool.

2) Women want to marry someone whom is likely to be a good provider or suscessful. Going to University and dating guys there is more likely to be successful than dating the highschool dropouts and D- types back home in this regard. The may be fun at parties but they aren't a good longterm investment where that pre-med guy probably is.

3) Women seem to be better at time managment which can help you balance all those courses. Less confident about this assessment but maybe a factor.

4) There still are some male dominanted jobs that pay well (construction, automechanic) where higher education is not required. I'm not aware of much for female dominated professions that are similarily well paid for minimal education.

Some thoughts anyways.

[Ryadn]

I think that unequal numbers of men and women in post-secondary education is a legitimate concern. I don't think the numbers (in the U.S. at least) are terribly worrying at the moment, since women have only started outnumbering men in about the last ten years. I also don't think that concerns for men's education should have anything to do with targeting women. That's like expressing concern about how many white people are out of jobs and then ordering minorities to stop applying for them.

Besides which, men still earn more money, so apparently our fancy extra education isn't that big of a factor yet.

[Tahar Joblis]

1) The cult of stupid, or how it is cool to be an underachiver and uncool to have good grades etc for the male population in grade school and highschool. This was my personal experience anyways where guys in my class were often proud of their D status. I remember one guy I used to sit with whom was proud of the fact he had never read a book that hadn't been assigned in a class, and even then he'd try to find the movie version and skip reading the book. So some guys are purposely self destructing their early education as they perceive uncoolness being attached to smarts and good grades. I didn't think such atitudes were as prevalent in the female population in grade and highschool.

Actually, I think they are, but more with respect to men. There have been some studies showing that especially studious or high-IQ males (IIRC, studies have looked at it from both directions, although I don't think any have adequately controlled for one with respect to the other) are far less likely to have sex. So you can't just blame coolness within the male social dynamic; it's "cool" within the entire society for men to be not particularly smart.

We've also seen that it's "cool" for women to pretend to be less intelligent to attract men, but somehow, women are more likely to just pull it off as an act, while men seem more likely to take it seriously. I wonder...

We also can see that in the media, there has been a rise in father figures and male leads who are dumb as bags of hammers, especially within sitcoms, but really everywhere. I, personally, blame lazy writers who, faced with the problem of how to stop portraying women as stupid (because it was becoming less fashionable) decided it was easier to make women look smart by having dumb men than by having smart women.

Of course, these dumb-as-rocks male leads are often right.

[JarVik]

1) The cult of stupid, or how it is cool to be an underachiver and uncool to have good grades etc for the male population in grade school and highschool. This was my personal experience anyways where guys in my class were often proud of their D status. I remember one guy I used to sit with whom was proud of the fact he had never read a book that hadn't been assigned in a class, and even then he'd try to find the movie version and skip reading the book. So some guys are purposely self destructing their early education as they perceive uncoolness being attached to smarts and good grades. I didn't think such atitudes were as prevalent in the female population in grade and highschool.

Actually, I think they are, but more with respect to men. There have been some studies showing that especially studious or high-IQ males (IIRC, studies have looked at it from both directions, although I don't think any have adequately controlled for one with respect to the other) are far less likely to have sex. So you can't just blame coolness within the male social dynamic; it's "cool" within the entire society for men to be not particularly smart.

We've also seen that it's "cool" for women to pretend to be less intelligent to attract men, but somehow, women are more likely to just pull it off as an act, while men seem more likely to take it seriously. I wonder...

We also can see that in the media, there has been a rise in father figures and male leads who are dumb as bags of hammers, especially within sitcoms, but really everywhere. I, personally, blame lazy writers who, faced with the problem of how to stop portraying women as stupid (because it was becoming less fashionable) decided it was easier to make women look smart by having dumb men than by having smart women.

Of course, these dumb-as-rocks male leads are often right.

Yeah, off the top of my head I can think of several stupid or borderline stupid sitcom "father"/male actors but no smart ones come to mind. That and, I think you right to that brains in a male isn't really sexy, at least not in grade and highscool. I was a smart kid in school but I certainly was invisible to the opposite sex until I started playing on sports teams. Then I started getting noticed abit beyond "pst...pst. whats the answer to Question 12?" which seem to be it before.

[Lackadaisical2]

I think this has to do with admission standards and the like.
and the differences between how men and women approach academic life.
The last 20 years we have been emphasizing GPA and reducing emphasis standardized test scores.
For whatever reason, likely it is social, Women tend to produce a better GPA and men tend to do better on standardized test.

Short term universities could focus more on standardized test and less on GPA.
Long term we need to figure out what causes the differing behaviors between men and women and make moves to fix that if possible.

Average male SAT score (2008, 3 parts): 1525
Average female SAT score (2008, 3 parts): 1500

That's really a very minimal difference. It used to be larger, but at the rate things are going, not even standardized tests will favor male students. The fact of the matter is, standardized tests have very little predictive power independent of other measurable factors (e.g., GPA), and the use of standardized tests had the primary effect of standing in as a "proxy" for social class and race.

I say this as someone who probably benefited from having a high SAT score during college admissions, and subsequently benefited by having a high GRE score during graduate school admissions, something I know was a factor in some schools even looking at my application.

No, I think we are seeing a decline in males within academics, with narrow exceptions (compsci, math, physics, engineering, philosophy) seeming to be more resistant to the influx of women into higher education. We might wish to blame Blizzard et al; addiction to gaming seems to provide much more of a distraction for males than females.

It used to be larger, until they added the essay, which I would bet females do much better on.

We also can see that in the media, there has been a rise in father figures and male leads who are dumb as bags of hammers, especially within sitcoms, but really everywhere. I, personally, blame lazy writers who, faced with the problem of how to stop portraying women as stupid (because it was becoming less fashionable) decided it was easier to make women look smart by having dumb men than by having smart women.

I agree with this part. Theres a certain amount of societal leaning towards "males are dumb".

Of course, these dumb-as-rocks male leads are often right.

I guess you're proof that its been effective?

Its interesting to note the large difference in achievement between males especially of hispanic or african descent in the US, comparing them to females of the same demographic. I don't have a real solid theory on this except the "thug culture" or something to that extent. More likely to be attracted to gangs and violence.

I'd also add that males in general are expected to be less studious, less interested in school, and overall more trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this carries over to a child's actions.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

My mum was the only female on the Electronics Engineering class at uni in her year until she changed courses due to an utter lack of peer support.

i can understand this, it sucks to be the only person of your own gender in a class. it sucks bad.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

I don't really see why it's a problem...

then you don't understand the issue, and the possible ramifications of it.

[Tahar Joblis]

It used to be larger, until they added the essay, which I would bet females do much better on.

Right now, +13 points. The V+Q male-female gap was all of 37 points in 2008... i.e., less than 20% of one population standard deviation for the V+Q score. Which, since women make up 57% of the population taking the test, means there are if anything a few more women scoring above the population average V+Q score than men.

I guess you're proof that its been effective?

Meh, I didn't grow up watching TV or movies. However, my study habits were complete crap until about my junior year of university. Take from that what you will.

Its interesting to note the large difference in achievement between males especially of hispanic or african descent in the US, comparing them to females of the same demographic. I don't have a real solid theory on this except the "thug culture" or something to that extent. More likely to be attracted to gangs and violence.

I'd also add that males in general are expected to be less studious, less interested in school, and overall more trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this carries over to a child's actions.

Expectations are very powerful. I think I mentioned once before on NS a very interesting study I read on math stereotypes. A group of Asian women were given a math test. If they were surrounded by cues reminding them of their gender, they did worse. If they were surrounded by cues reminding them of their race, they did better.

[Bottle]

When women were finally allowed to attend school, the rates of attendance for women remained extremely low for decades. This was held up as evidence that:

1) Female human beings are inherently too stupid to learn.
2) Female human beings are innately wired to not want to learn things.
3) Female human beings are naturally inclined to stay at home with babies and not fill their pretty little heads with silly book learning.
4) Female human beings cannot compete with male human beings in the academic arena.
5) Female human beings are physically weaker and their delicate constitutions and ladyparts cannot abide a rigorous study schedule.

And there were more. There was great debate over which female weaknesses, specifically, were causing their academic failures, but one thing was agreed upon for certain: female human beings were to blame for their own low rates of college graduation, lower rates of high school graduation, and any other area in which they failed to measure up to men. Feminists who suggested that perhaps some other force might be at work (like, say, systemic discrimination) were regarded as shrill hysterics.

Of course, now that women are succeeding too much, this must also be the fault of women.

It can't possibly be that women are innately more competitive or possess skills that make them better able to succeed. Those arguments, which are considered self-evidently true when applied to men, are offensive if suggested about women.

It can't possibly be that female children are socialized in ways which make them better able to function in the school setting, and that perhaps all the macho posturing and "boys will be boys" attitudes are actually hampering boys' ability to mature and thrive in adult society.

It can't be that the average woman with a college degree still makes what the average high-school educated man makes, and thus women recognize that they're still going to have to work harder to get the same pay.

It certainly can't be that anything at all is to blame besides horrible, feminizing women and their horrible feminizing ways, ruining society for everyone.

[Brajh]

Depends on the field of study, really. Most business and engineering schools are male dominated.

I think the problem begins in grammar school, though. I remember in grade school, teachers would give points and other things for superfluous decoration on projects and other things. Stuff girls liked and were good at. Not so much for boys. In addition, girls are usually better at sitting and listening than boys are, which makes the traditional school system tailored to their advantage.

[Brostkorgen]

I'm an English education major and I'm the only guy in most of my classes, with one or two others in some of the larger ones. As to why, I'd guess it's because our culture (Amerifag here) encourages boys to be like their dads: fat, lazy, ignorant, and SPORTS! AAAH!

[Free Soviets]

It certainly can't be that anything at all is to blame besides horrible, feminizing women and their horrible feminizing ways, ruining society for everyone.

hell, there are no other conceivable options out there at all