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The "stimulus" idea... So, let's examine it

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Robustian
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The "stimulus" idea... So, let's examine it

Postby Robustian » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:44 pm

I've seen some argument that "stimulus" created jobs help the economy. Really? Why do you think so? Our economy is in a recession because for the last few years prior to 2008, several trillion dollars of debt spending cash was pumped into the economy, causing demand for various commodities and products and services that was unsustainable. For an economy to survive, there must be a fundamental economic condition - that is, more wealth is produced than is consumed.

The debt bubble, mostly real estate borrowing, and some easy consumer borrowing increased demand more than the wealth produced could pay for. So, what happens when the money runs out and the bubble collapses? Well, it's pretty simple. Consumption falls to the level of the wealth being produced - the debt repayment. The debt repayment is EITHER real repayment, or the cost to investors and institutions of debt defaults. One way or another, THE BILL GETS PAID.

Ok, so we have bubble era conditions
Wealth production - 100
RE debt spending - 10
consumer debt - 10
total money flow - 120
Taxes - 26

Where's this leave the nation? at a negative 6. We had a federal deficit.

So, post bubble where are we?

wealth production - 100
RE losses - -4
debt losses - -3
total money flow - 93
Taxes - 28

Where's this leave the nation? At a negative 35.

What's deficit spending do?

Wealth production - 100
RE losses -4
debt losses - -3
stim spending .1
total money flow - 92.9
Taxes - 28

What did it do? Nothing.
But, in the future, taxes will increase by at leas another 1 or 2 to pay for it.

So, in two years:

wealth production - 98 < reduced due to capital shortage
RE losses -3
debt losses 2
total money flow - 93

Taxes - 31
So, where are we? - 38 We're WORSE off.

Couple this with the fact that Obama and Congress intend to dramatically increase taxes AND increase the cost of hiring. Let's see what that does to employment and wealth generation.

You own a business that fixes equipment. You have 15 employees, 12 of which produce billable hours.

15 people being paid 40K a year costs an employer about 720,000 a year. Additionally, you have about 65,000 in equipment per employee you are paying for, which you have to replace every 5 years. And, your main facility has a 600K loan against it. Add about 4000/mo for utilities and another 2000/mo in insurance and miscellaneous costs.

So, let's add it all up.
720,000 wages and taxes.
48000 utilities
24000 insurance and other misc
70000 mortgage service
195000 equipment costs annually
1057000 in fixed costs annually.

Each employee must generate more than 1200 billable hours at $70 per hour each year to just break even. To expand, modernize, and make a profit, each one must make at least 1500 hours billable a year. That's a VERY heavy workload. It means that every productive person has only 25% of "down" time, known as travel, wait, delays, lost time, etc or you lose money and they're unemployed in reality, that's impossible. This kind of service has productivity rates closer to 55%. You COULD raise your rates. But, if you do, you will reduce the amount of work, since more customers will delay or otherwise avoid using your services. So, if you raise your rates 10%, you might benefit by 4-6%. Presumeably, your competition faces the same as you.

So, when you lose the interest deductions on your loans and obamacare costs you 10% more of your wages... You have two choices... something like a 20% increase in rates, or lose one employee that used to man the parts room, sell the equipment you used for him, and then take some vacation and $3000 a year away from their wages just to hold even.

No matter what choices you make, you just learned a real truth. PRODUCTIVITY pays the bills. Your employers have to produce more than ever, and you have to scrimp. Raise the marginal rates for social security, mandate more sick time, and things get squeezed even more.

Since you cannot any longer buy tools on credit, you have to pay cash now due to credit unavailability, which means you have to delay purchases of replacement equipment, hurting productivity, and paying for the new equipment as you finish servicing the debt on the OLD. Ooops, that just doubled your equipment budget.

Alltogether, what did the Stimulus and Obama's 'generosity' about health care and other things do for you? Well, it seriously screwed over your employees, it hurt the people you buy from, by hurting their sales, raised the rates you charge by as much as 20% stay on par, harming the people you provide services to.

Is THIS how you encourage more employment? If you think so, if you think that stimulus spending improves conditions, if you think that Obama declaring lots of generous new benefits, paid for by employers and businesspeople wont' harm you... think again. The stimulus has no real improvement in goods and service demand - it invests ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN WEALTH CREATION, and yet, the ENTIRE cost, plus interest, must be paid for by the producers, at the same time you've just hampered them by consuming the available capital and raising interest rates.

Recovery from a recession WILL NOT HAPPEN until the producers of wealth regain profitability. Mandates, tax increases, and regulatory cost increases (like cap and tax) will cause NEGATIVE wealth production growth among the current producers. And, it leaves us in big debt. Until the producers of wealth can start making a profit, a profit so they can grow, and add more employees and more productivity, no economic recovery will occur. Every business will have to find ways to squeeze more productivity from the wages they pay. They must DO MORE WITH LESS PEOPLE. This is a recessionary cycle. Layoffs. Reduced demand and reduced sales. This reduces revenues and compounds the need to get more productivity from fewer. But every business has to find MORE productivity gains than revenue losses and do so until profit is made again.

Stimulus spending doesn't fix or even help... any of this. Instead, it diverts what limited capital is available from those who produce wealth, to the non productive spending - like roads, libraries, parks, and other pork barrell garbage. It compounds the recessionary cycle.

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Jocabia
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Postby Jocabia » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:02 am

All true. Of course, it's all true because you made it up, but that's how making things up works.

What happens if we propose the same scenarios, but I posit different numbers. Since we're just making shit up, I propose that wealth production increases. That totally changes the numbers.

I similarly propose that the business I run, that I've been running for the last three years (all during a lazy economy) is currently growing. Because of the stimulus, we've gotten more work. As such, we've spent more and hired. We won't use Obamacare, because it would cost us more, which is totally the point. Our taxes have gone up, as they should (most of us make more than 100K a year), but then we've also benefitted from people being able to continue to hire us, which was a VERY real concern a year ago when it looked like just about every state was going to have to freeze spending.

See, that's the thing about posing scenarios, they work because you make them work. The only problem is that mine is not theoretical. I'm making more money because of the stimulus. We aren't having trouble borrowing. We aren't having more trouble finding work than we were last year. And it's real work that needed to be done to keep the nation's infrastructure strong. My world is better. The world of my employees is better. The world of those we pay for flying us to sites, driving us to airports, feeding us at restaurants and putting us up in hotels is better. And that passes on. That's real work. That's real wealth generation. And it's all driven by the second stimulus that is allowing states to continue infrastructure projects knowing there is more money left in the coffers.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:43 am

Jocabia wrote:All true. Of course, it's all true because you made it up, but that's how making things up works.

What happens if we propose the same scenarios, but I posit different numbers. Since we're just making shit up, I propose that wealth production increases. That totally changes the numbers.

I similarly propose that the business I run, that I've been running for the last three years (all during a lazy economy) is currently growing. Because of the stimulus, we've gotten more work. As such, we've spent more and hired. We won't use Obamacare, because it would cost us more, which is totally the point. Our taxes have gone up, as they should (most of us make more than 100K a year), but then we've also benefitted from people being able to continue to hire us, which was a VERY real concern a year ago when it looked like just about every state was going to have to freeze spending.

See, that's the thing about posing scenarios, they work because you make them work. The only problem is that mine is not theoretical. I'm making more money because of the stimulus. We aren't having trouble borrowing. We aren't having more trouble finding work than we were last year. And it's real work that needed to be done to keep the nation's infrastructure strong. My world is better. The world of my employees is better. The world of those we pay for flying us to sites, driving us to airports, feeding us at restaurants and putting us up in hotels is better. And that passes on. That's real work. That's real wealth generation. And it's all driven by the second stimulus that is allowing states to continue infrastructure projects knowing there is more money left in the coffers.


i suspect you're about to find out that you're both stupid and oblivious to reality, though feel free to question what reality is being referred to because it's generally not one you or I live in.

I've seen it before.

Anyway, as I've argued in the other thread on this, it should be considered a 'cushioning' not a 'stimulus'.
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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:47 am

Ignoring for a moment that you made up the numbers, you also made up the parameters. This "total money flow" phenomenon that you describe doesn't exist in real life.

Really, this thread ought to be part of the other one because they are identical, but I'll post the link here that I posted there because it answers your question. http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/01/t ... tment.html
Last edited by NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ on Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Almagarde
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Postby Almagarde » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:48 am

I'm not sure you quite get where Obama is going. The Stimulus isnt just a few trillion dollars paid over this last year. Over the next 20 years it will be a 9 trillion loan from china that will bankrupt the USA and force it into liquidation. His plan is an economic act of terrorism the instant it fails. It will fail because it requires the commitment of US Governments for the next hundred years to the process.

If anything he has prevented the USA and China from Going to the Moon and slowed their economies to a crawl.

The economy you propose is one where the Stimulus funds are directed into industry in payment for their product to keep people employed and taxes paid, and jobs and homes and all the parasitic service industries that rely on them intact. Conceivably it could work. But that isnt what is happening. If you though Slavery of the Afican American was bad - think what Slavery of the Poor American will be like.

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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:10 am

Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*
Last edited by Lunatic Goofballs on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:31 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:32 am

greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:33 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(

Point and case the Stimulus has failed.

Care to join me in my rabbling with torches and pitchforks ?
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:34 am

greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(

Point and case the Stimulus has failed.

Care to join me in my rabbling with torches and pitchforks ?


I'd rather just bake more muffins. :)
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

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Vittos Ordination
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Postby Vittos Ordination » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:37 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*


See, the stimulus has just reinforced this sort of dietary myopia.

We need the muffins savings rate to recover a little bit, but all anyone wants to do is eat their muffins and have them too.

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Little Jim P
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Postby Little Jim P » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:38 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(

Point and case the Stimulus has failed.

Care to join me in my rabbling with torches and pitchforks ?


I'd rather just bake more muffins. :)


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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:40 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(

Point and case the Stimulus has failed.

Care to join me in my rabbling with torches and pitchforks ?


I'd rather just bake more muffins. :)

You can use the fire from the torches.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:40 am

Let them eat muffin :)
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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:23 am

Almagarde wrote:I'm not sure you quite get where Obama is going. The Stimulus isnt just a few trillion dollars paid over this last year. Over the next 20 years it will be a 9 trillion loan from china that will bankrupt the USA and force it into liquidation. His plan is an economic act of terrorism the instant it fails. It will fail because it requires the commitment of US Governments for the next hundred years to the process.

If anything he has prevented the USA and China from Going to the Moon and slowed their economies to a crawl.

Actually China's market share of the debt has gone down.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:26 am

Almagarde wrote:If anything he has prevented the USA and China from Going to the Moon and slowed their economies to a crawl.

I keep forgetting how important traveling to some godforsaken rock in our orbit, again, is. :meh:
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LOL ANARCHY NUBZ
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Postby LOL ANARCHY NUBZ » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:51 pm

greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:Clearly the stimulus is working just fine because I have a muffin. *shows muffin* If the stimulus weren't working, then clearly I wouldn't have a muffin. Check and mate. :)

*eats muffin*

Now where is your muffin ?


I need a second stimulus muffin. :(

Point and case the Stimulus has failed.

Care to join me in my rabbling with torches and pitchforks Automatic Rifles?


He's out to get them, don'tchaknow?

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:55 pm

LOL ANARCHY NUBZ wrote:He's out to get them, don'tchaknow?


Everyone needs a hobby.

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LOL ANARCHY NUBZ
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Postby LOL ANARCHY NUBZ » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:59 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
LOL ANARCHY NUBZ wrote:He's out to get them, don'tchaknow?


Everyone needs a hobby.


Very true...what's yours?

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:38 pm

Barringtonia wrote:Let them eat muffin :)

:(
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