Who is harmed by same-sex marriage?

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

لُوطًا إِذۡ قَالَ لِقَوۡمِهِۦۤ أَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِہَا مِنۡ أَحَدٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٨٠) إِنَّڪُمۡ لَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَہۡوَةً۬ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ‌ۚ بَلۡ أَنتُمۡ قَوۡمٌ۬ مُّسۡرِفُونَ (٨١)

We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (80) "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (81)

So, not only are you stealing culture from the Jews, but you also misinterpret it as well.

Unbelievable. No wonder Jews are pissed all the time.

Slovenya isn't a Christian.

[Norstal]

So, not only are you stealing culture from the Jews, but you also misinterpret it as well.

Unbelievable. No wonder Jews are pissed all the time.

Slovenya isn't a Christian.

I'm referring to both Christians and Islam. Both stole culture from the Jews. If they weren't, they shouldn't be worshiping a Jewish god.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm referring to both Christians and Islam. Both stole culture from the Jews. If they weren't, they shouldn't be worshiping a Jewish god.

Yea, also call us a bunch of bastards why don't you

If you are going to start to bash Christianity when I, a Christian, supports gay marriage, no wonder people get polarized.

[Evraim]

You're worshiping the Jewish God, yet you trample and desecrate His words by redefining it in your own twisted ways. If that's not stealing culture, I don't know what is.

I neither trample nor desecrate his words. The Jewish culture is my culture. I meant to ask if I came across as angry all the time, silly?

And now, Jews are being told by Christians what their scripture means. I mean, Christians don't think Jews can interpret their own scripture well enough, so they apparently intervene to give them the "right" interpretation.

It's either that or reject their cherished beliefs. I think I can understand why the first option possesses so much appeal.

[Norstal]

I'm referring to both Christians and Islam. Both stole culture from the Jews. If they weren't, they shouldn't be worshiping a Jewish god.

Yea, also call us a bunch of bastards why don't you

If you are going to start to bash Christianity when I, a Christian, supports gay marriage, no wonder people get polarized.

Where am I bashing your religion? You worship a Jewish god and you do not follow Jewish customs. That's stealing culture. That's not right. If you see groups of Christians like the WBC, who worships your god yet follows none of his laws, are they not doing something wrong? Are they not stealing the Christian name?

That's not to say Christians doesn't follow some Jewish customs correctly. Some do. Some don't.

[Norstal]

You're worshiping the Jewish God, yet you trample and desecrate His words by redefining it in your own twisted ways. If that's not stealing culture, I don't know what is.

I neither trample nor desecrate his words. The Jewish culture is my culture. I meant to ask if I came across as angry all the time, silly?

I apologize. No, that part was said in jest.

[Evraim]

I apologize. No, that part was said in jest.

It's not a problem. I was merely curious.

I do, however, disagree with the cultural theft argument. Culture isn't stolen in this case. It's transmitted and evolves. The latter should not at all be interpreted to imply that Christianity or Islam is superior to or more correct than Judaism, mind you.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Where am I bashing your religion? You worship a Jewish god and you do not follow Jewish customs. That's stealing culture. That's not right. If you see groups of Christians like the WBC, who worships your god yet follows none of his laws, are they not doing something wrong? Are they not stealing the Christian name?

That's not to say Christians doesn't follow some Jewish customs correctly. Some do. Some don't.

Yes, I understand the dilemma with Jewish customs being swallowed into Christianity, it still is our choice as individuals to pick what kind of moral conduct we want to live by. Christianity seems misunderstood as being this rigid scene where people have very rigid beliefs because of the actions of a few individuals, or at least we should, nothing could be further from the truth.

You talk about gender roles not being right? Well let US choose what's best for us, don't try to clump us with all the other intolerant Christians or into a very narrow aspect of Christianity because not all of us Christians even believe in the same moral code or the interpretation of the bible, and in fact you are more likely to find two Christians contradicting each other on what the bible says if they are from different denomination than people of the same denomination.

I also have adopted some buddhism and other types of philosophical/religious thinking in my morality, the fact that I am Christian doesn't mean I conform to the cartoonish Christianity of the WBC or Fundamentalist Christianity.

The WBC is a disgrace to Christianity, that is all I will say of them.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's nothing against you personally. It's just that if I let you get away with thinking that your belief is okay, that will shape you in ways that might be detrimental to the success of liberalism, freedom, and equality. That I cannot allow.

Isn't this the same you accuse Christians and Islamists of doing?

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

Slovenya isn't a Christian.

I'm referring to both Christians and Islam. Both stole culture from the Jews. If they weren't, they shouldn't be worshiping a Jewish god.

I can get saying that Christians are "stealing" Jewish culture - though, in reality, belief in the same God (belief Jesus being the difference) requires Christians to use the same manuscript - but Muslims essentially share the same heritage, being a "splinter religion" from Judaism.

[Agymnum]

It's nothing against you personally. It's just that if I let you get away with thinking that your belief is okay, that will shape you in ways that might be detrimental to the success of liberalism, freedom, and equality. That I cannot allow.

Isn't this the same you accuse Christians and Islamists of doing?

I don't accuse them of doing anything wrong so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. As an Atheist, I find their beliefs silly, but they are free to believe what they want - hence freedom of/from religion.

I rightfully point out the wrongness of any group - religious, political, or otherwise - when they threaten to infringe upon the rights of others. When any group is against same-sex marriage, that's when I accuse them of propagating incorrect beliefs. When any group is against gender equality, that's when I accuse them of propagating incorrect beliefs.

If your beliefs are wrong, I have a right to challenge them. People have this misconceived notion that because they have "beliefs" or "opinions" that these things are beyond question and criticism. They aren't, because what you believe and think may eventually affect what happens to me or someone else.

[Menassa]

Straight up Hebrew Bible:

Ezekiel 16:49
"מט "הִנֵּה-זֶה הָיָה, עֲו‍ֹן סְדֹם אֲחוֹתֵךְ: גָּאוֹן שִׂבְעַת-לֶחֶם וְשַׁלְוַת הַשְׁקֵט, הָיָה לָהּ וְלִבְנוֹתֶיהָ, וְיַד-עָנִי וְאֶבְיוֹן, לֹא הֶחֱזִיקָה.

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Word to the Tanna.

[Menassa]

I apologize. No, that part was said in jest.

It's not a problem. I was merely curious.

I do, however, disagree with the cultural theft argument. Culture isn't stolen in this case. It's transmitted and evolves. The latter should not at all be interpreted to imply that Christianity or Islam is superior to or more correct than Judaism, mind you.

You can take my culture and parade it as your own, you cannot misinterpret my beliefs based on your view of my culture which you took.

[Agymnum]

Straight up Hebrew Bible:

Ezekiel 16:49
"מט "הִנֵּה-זֶה הָיָה, עֲו‍ֹן סְדֹם אֲחוֹתֵךְ: גָּאוֹן שִׂבְעַת-לֶחֶם וְשַׁלְוַת הַשְׁקֵט, הָיָה לָהּ וְלִבְנוֹתֶיהָ, וְיַד-עָנִי וְאֶבְיוֹן, לֹא הֶחֱזִיקָה.

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Word to the Tanna.

You know, I used to think that God must've been a real dick when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now I see he was at least right about Sodom. Bastards got what they deserved.

[Menassa]

Straight up Hebrew Bible:

Ezekiel 16:49
"מט "הִנֵּה-זֶה הָיָה, עֲו‍ֹן סְדֹם אֲחוֹתֵךְ: גָּאוֹן שִׂבְעַת-לֶחֶם וְשַׁלְוַת הַשְׁקֵט, הָיָה לָהּ וְלִבְנוֹתֶיהָ, וְיַד-עָנִי וְאֶבְיוֹן, לֹא הֶחֱזִיקָה.

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Word to the Tanna.

You know, I used to think that God must've been a real dick when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now I see he was at least right about Sodom. Bastards got what they deserved.

They say God had enough of Sodom when they killed one of their residents (covered her in honey and set her near bees) because she had helped a poor man.

The Midrash goes into many listings of the crooked ways of Sodom.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't accuse them of doing anything wrong so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. As an Atheist, I find their beliefs silly, but they are free to believe what they want - hence freedom of/from religion.

I rightfully point out the wrongness of any group - religious, political, or otherwise - when they threaten to infringe upon the rights of others. When any group is against same-sex marriage, that's when I accuse them of propagating incorrect beliefs. When any group is against gender equality, that's when I accuse them of propagating incorrect beliefs.

If your beliefs are wrong, I have a right to challenge them. People have this misconceived notion that because they have "beliefs" or "opinions" that these things are beyond question and criticism. They aren't, because what you believe and think may eventually affect what happens to me or someone else.

Well yes, you are right. I mean, if my beliefs are wrong and you challenge them in a manner that is not adversarial I will probably change my own mind. However, note that people won't take anyone seriously if they start insulting each other and they will be more adamant to change because you believe that your religion is superior.

I have nothing against atheism. I may not think the same way you do, but I will never put down your religion or your ideas as "stupid" but at the same time you are right in challenging the ideas of other person. It is how ideas are developed and better ideas come to light. And well, yes, thoughts may or may not become actions, but it is fine to disagree too and I admit I disagree with most anti-gay marriage folks, but I don't necessarily think they are wrong in believing what they believe, as they are in their right to have their own personal moral compass, it doesn't mean it's right, but reality will teach them if they don't want to listen.

[I Want to Smash Them All]

I was not prepared for the shitstorm after all and "real life" can be inconvenient. I apologize for not posting more and, although I have read much of the thread, I am way behind.

So far, I have seen the following categories of "harm" alleged:

1. Offense to those -- religious or otherwise -- oppose or hate same-sex marriage, same-sex relationships, or LGBT individuals
2. Offense to religious individuals and/or deities (somewhat like the above)
3. Administrative problems causing harm to various people
4. Societal decay, rampant immorality, etc.
5. Harm to children raised by same-sex couples
6. Slippery slope "harm" to ?? because incest, polygamy, etc., will be legal
7. And this post, which assets myriad "bad" things (many of which do not seem to be alleged to directly harm anyone)

Please let me know if I have missed any categories or particulars of note.

BTW, although this does not impact the "assertions," I realize many answered who support same-sex marriage and that most asserted harms were on behalf of/to others that the poster did not agree or identify with.

Anyway, with the exception of #3, #5, and parts of #7, these are not direct harms to anyone.

The first two categories are not really "harm" at all. The government or society or others doing things or allowing things that you disapprove of or oppose generally causes no "harm" to you in any meaningful sense (except where you are independently harmed by the "things" in question). More specifically, those opposed to or offended by same-sex marriage are not harmed in any tangible way simply because their view is not enforced by government.

Moral decay, slippery slope, immorality, etc., may ultimately lead to tangible harm to someone. But the connection between government recognition of same-sex marriage and such harm involves many intermediate steps and is too abstract and removed.

As to administrative burdens, costs to taxpayers, costs to businesses, etc., these could count, except that enforcing DOMA is far more costly than allowing same-sex marriage and allowing same-sex marriage is less burdensome, costly, etc., than alternatives like domestic partnerships or civil unions. (I'll elaborate later if necessary and I get a chance.)

As to children of homosexuals or raised by same-sex couples, the claim they suffer any harm is a wicked, wicked lie. But, even if it were not, this argument completely ignores that, whether or not government recognizes same-sex marriages, such children will exist. Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, etc., can still procreate, adopt, etc. And, even the proponents of Prop Hate admitted at trial, such children are worse off if same-sex marriage is not recognized and would benefit if it were recognized.

As for #7, I'll come back to anything not covered above if I feel it necessary and I give a damn.

[Zweite Alaje]

I'm referring to both Christians and Islam. Both stole culture from the Jews. If they weren't, they shouldn't be worshiping a Jewish god.

I can get saying that Christians are "stealing" Jewish culture - though, in reality, belief in the same God (belief Jesus being the difference) requires Christians to use the same manuscript - but Muslims essentially share the same heritage, being a "splinter religion" from Judaism.

I wouldn't even consider Christianity and Islam to be "stealing" Jewish culture, but are instead continuations of it. Both of them are basically just variants of Judaism.

[Menassa]

I can get saying that Christians are "stealing" Jewish culture - though, in reality, belief in the same God (belief Jesus being the difference) requires Christians to use the same manuscript - but Muslims essentially share the same heritage, being a "splinter religion" from Judaism.

I wouldn't even consider Christianity and Islam to be "stealing" Jewish culture, but are instead continuations of it. Both of them are basically just variants of Judaism.

Or so they claim.

[Zweite Alaje]

I wouldn't even consider Christianity and Islam to be "stealing" Jewish culture, but are instead continuations of it. Both of them are basically just variants of Judaism.

Or so they claim.

Meh, I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, so not my business.

[Menassa]

Or so they claim.

Meh, I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, so not my business.

Then it may do you well to not call them variants of Judaism.

[Zweite Alaje]

Meh, I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, so not my business.

Then it may do you well to not call them variants of Judaism.

Ok, ok...no offense meant.

[Menassa]

Then it may do you well to not call them variants of Judaism.

Ok, ok...no offense meant.

None taken.

[Kayato Kawata]

Does anyone on these forums actually claim they personally would suffer some harm if same-sex marriage was allowed and recognized on the same terms as opposite-sex marriage? If you claim you would be harmed, please be specific as to how.

Yes, yes they do. But what a few people say is irrelevant. We are nearing marriage equality in America.

Then can I get married to my sister?

How about my dog?

I also wonder about marriage to intelligent extraterrestrials. Is that counted as Beastiality? Can't be interracial cause its not of the same species. Are people ready to consider these possible future situations now?

[Neutraligon]

Yes, yes they do. But what a few people say is irrelevant. We are nearing marriage equality in America.

Then can I get married to my sister?

How about my dog?

I also wonder about marriage to intelligent extraterrestrials. Is that counted as Beastiality? Can't be interracial cause its not of the same race. Are people ready to consider these problems now?

Sister I have no problem with, but you're dog can't give informed consent.