All Abortion Illegal in North Dakota

[Ceannairceach]

Because abortion can end in the expulsion without termination of the fetus' life. But it would die anyway. So the killing of it is a merciful act.

So depriving someone of oxygen, then stabbing them, is just mercy killing because they were going to die of asphyxiation anyways?

Yup. But the merciful act is kind of pointless, as it lacks the mental function necessary to identify what mercy is.

[Auralia]

But that doesn't change the fact that custody is initially assigned to the biological parent, and the parent must go through proper legal channels to reassign custody to someone else.

Great idea! Let's appeal to religion and assign abortion centers the legal ability to assign God the custody of aborted fetuses.

That's not a response to my argument.

[Ujh Uhj]

But the adoption system is so messed up in America that we're importing babies instead of adopting actual Americans. There is an argument that women shouldn't have abortions because they can utilize adoption, but that view is clouded and ignorant and takes into account none of the opinions of the woman.

My point was actually that you do not have an obligation to have your child even after birth. You can use adoption.

I understand your argument; and I apologize for implying otherwise. I was just noting that adoption is not any reason that abortion should be outlawed.

[Lunalia]

Hmm, put it up for adoption?
/thread

Adoption and abortion are two different things. You cannot use that as your end-all answer, as that still implies that women are born to be baby incubators.

This. Exactly this.

[Kengburg]

A man walks through urban Detroit at 1:00 AM. He gets robbed by a thug, who takes all the money he has for rent, and the money in his wallet. Isn't the man entitled to the money back even though he knew the risks of walking through Detroit at 1:00 AM?

The same goes for unintentionally pregnant women, they knew the risks that the condom might break, but they should be able to resume they're lives and not have to raise a child (which is a big responsibility) that they probably do not have the funds to raise. Did you know just a regular vaginal birth at a hospital costs $9,000+? Who the hell can afford that when working a $20,000 a year job!

[Ceannairceach]

Great idea! Let's appeal to religion and assign abortion centers the legal ability to assign God the custody of aborted fetuses.

That's not a response to my argument.

No, its a solution to a problem.

[Christian Democrats]

If most abortions are not late-term, how can "the baby . . . [theoretically] live after abortion" (your words)?

Because abortion can end in the expulsion without termination of the fetus' life. But it would die anyway. So the killing of it is a merciful act.

Killing is not a merciful act if it were possible to "save" the individual who is dying.

Do I show mercy toward a starving woman if I kill her to stop her suffering when I had the means to feed her?

[Atnae]

But the adoption system is so messed up in America that we're importing babies instead of adopting actual Americans. There is an argument that women shouldn't have abortions because they can utilize adoption, but that view is clouded and ignorant and takes into account none of the opinions of the woman.

Not to mention, Russian President, Valdimir Putin's American Adoption Ban (which bans Americans from adopting Russian children) cuts off a good deal of adoptions from another country.
I actually support these bans, not on the ground that I think Americans shouldn't be able to adopt from Russia, but I support it on the grounds that it's their country, and they can pass whatever they want. Just so you know,

So you support all the crazy BS that china pulls off on the grounds that it's their country, and they can pass whatever they want.

[Carpathia and Moldova]

The issue here is a lot more complicated. Yes, I support this legislation, due to the fact that I consider abortion to be murder of the worse kind. While I would approve of it in situations that are endangering a mother's life, abortion because a woman "doesn't feel like it" is evil and wrong.

As for cases of rape-induced pregnancy, I agree that women are victims, but what fault does the child have? Is the child guilty that some deranged idiot raped a woman? No. Then why should the child die?

Its true that in many cases, women find themselves in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, but those children didn't ask to be conceived. The blame should not be put on them. Usually with unwanted pregnancy, the fault belongs to the consenting couple. If they were irresponsible enough not to use protection, then they should face the consequences. Saying that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion because it was a mistake, would be like saying that someone who ran over a person with a car should not go to jail, because, you know, it was a mistake and no one wanted that.

On the other hand, the law should be more strict with the father. In other words, the biological father should be forced by the law to provide for the child. Same goes for rapists. And also, the penalty for rape is too small.

Oh, good, so we'll force a rape victim or someone who gets pregnant because she had a tad too much to drink to not only have a child but we'll force her into a relationship with someone who either violated her or can't even remember her name. Excellent plan.

I'm not saying anything about forcing anyone into a relationship. By providing for the child, I mean financially. As for the ones who get pregnant because they had too much to drink, well its their own fault. If we go along the line of what you say, then we should let the people who drive drunk and kill someone go free, because, you know, it was a mistake and poor souls just had a bit too much to drink.

The point is, people should be held responsible for their actions. If you make a mistake, you must face the consequences. No exceptions whatsoever. I am one of those who believe that the law should be absolute and no clemency should be given, ever. Justice before mercy.

[Lunalia]

Is it the fault of the lifeform inside you that he was conceived?

Uh, yes? Do you not know how conception happens?

A sperm cell beats the other sperm cells to an egg
So yes. By winning said race, it is the sperm cell's fault that it won.

[Vazdania]

Yeah, you heard me right.

North Dakota lawmakers voted on Friday afternoon to pass a “personhood” abortion ban, which would endow fertilized eggs with all the rights of U.S. citizens and effectively outlaw abortion. The measure, which passed the Senate last month, passed the House by a 57-35 vote and now heads to a ballot vote, likely in the next November election.

A personhood ban could have far-reaching consequences even beyond abortion care, since it will charge doctors who damage embryos with criminal negligence. Doctors in the state say it will also prevent them from performing in vitro fertilization, and some medical professionals have vowed to leave the state if it is signed into law.

Personhood measures are so extreme that some pro-life Republicans in the state have come out against them, planning to join a pro-choice rally in the state capital on Monday to oppose the far-right abortion restriction. “We have stepped over the line,” Republican state Rep. Kathy Hawken (R-Fargo) said of the recent push to pass personhood. “North Dakota hasn’t even passed a primary seatbelt law, but we have the most invasive attack on women’s health anywhere.”

Personhood advocates have pushed their agenda in states throughout the country over the past several years, but their measures have so far been unable to advance. Anti-choice lawmakers in North Dakota, who have already pushed through a stringent six-week abortion ban, were actually considering two different types of personhood legislation — one to immediately amend the state’s constitution to redefine life as beginning at conception, and one to put a personhood amendment on the ballot. The House voted down the first and passed the second.

I'm so appalled I can't even make light of this. I cannot believe it will be upheld by the inevitable SCOTUS challenge, but I'm literally so in shock I can't even make light of it. I can't quite imagine what

I mean, in the event of fetal resorption, should the surviving fetus be charged with homicide?

Should charges be laid before birth? Or after?

And in either event, should it be tried as an adult?

If fertilized eggs are US Citizens in North Dakota, does this mean birth certificates are issued at the first sign of pregnancy? Social Security numbers? Child support hearings held? Will the 2020 Census be required to list them, maybe with ages measured in Expected Negative Age? Or does one's age now begin counting upwards at the likely date of conception? Or the day the pregnancy is verified? Is that retroactive?


But there I go, thinking about things.

GOOD JOB NORTH DAKOTA

[Ceannairceach]

GOOD JOB NORTH DAKOTA

Vazzy, Christ doesn't like slavery.

[Fintanland]

I understand your argument; and I apologize for implying otherwise. I was just noting that adoption is not any reason that abortion should be outlawed.

Very true. Sure, contraception and adoption are alternatives to abortion that should be encouraged, but I realize that one is not always 100 % efficient, and the other one is much more painful for the mother, who still has to go through pregnancy.

[Vazdania]

GOOD JOB NORTH DAKOTA

Vazzy, Christ doesn't like slavery.

Its not slavery. It gives person-hood to embryos!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

how come is it that I'm against abortion and I have empirical proof coming from a country with a ban on abortions,and I know why is it a bad idea and these fundamentalists are not even capable of seeing it?!

[Ceannairceach]

Vazzy, Christ doesn't like slavery.

Its not slavery. It gives person-hood to embryos!

In exchange for enslaving women to nonsentient, nonsapient beings.

[Fintanland]

Its not slavery. It gives person-hood to embryos!

And then gives them the right to enslave women

[Farnhamia]

Oh, good, so we'll force a rape victim or someone who gets pregnant because she had a tad too much to drink to not only have a child but we'll force her into a relationship with someone who either violated her or can't even remember her name. Excellent plan.

I'm not saying anything about forcing anyone into a relationship. By providing for the child, I mean financially. As for the ones who get pregnant because they had too much to drink, well its their own fault. If we go along the line of what you say, then we should let the people who drive drunk and kill someone go free, because, you know, it was a mistake and poor souls just had a bit too much to drink.

The point is, people should be held responsible for their actions. If you make a mistake, you must face the consequences. No exceptions whatsoever. I am one of those who believe that the law should be absolute and no clemency should be given, ever. Justice before mercy.

Driving drunk is a crime. Getting pregnant accidentally isn't, or at least, shouldn't be. I do get the impression that some people here think it is, morally, anyway.

[Geilinor]

It can survive. For a few moments. Then it dies all on its own.

Most abortions are not late-term, and thus do not involve limb removal.

If most abortions are not late-term, how can "the baby . . . [theoretically] live after abortion" (your words)?

In the abortions that are late-term. In those abortions, they need to do dilation and evacuation and the fetus is viable.

[Atnae]

how come is it that I'm against abortion and I have proof why is it a bad idea and these fundamentalists are not even capable of seeing it?!

because your proof is airtight in the same way that walrus is Australia

[Vazdania]

Its not slavery. It gives person-hood to embryos!

In exchange for enslaving women to nonsentient, nonsapient beings.

That are still human.

[Kengburg]

GOOD JOB NORTH DAKOTA

Vazzy, Christ doesn't like slavery.

Titus 2:9 - "Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative."

[Individuality-ness]

Vazzy, Christ doesn't like slavery.

Its not slavery. It gives person-hood to embryos!

Shall I wear the pink shackes to the hospital bed?

[Carpathia and Moldova]

The issue here is a lot more complicated. Yes, I support this legislation, due to the fact that I consider abortion to be murder of the worse kind.

Fine jail "god" he is the one most guilty of the most.

I would, if God existed.

[Ceannairceach]

In exchange for enslaving women to nonsentient, nonsapient beings.

That are still human.

Sure, they are of our species. But that doesn't give them the right to enslave people.