If you could change history

[Osterr]

Stop the burning of Alexandria's library
or
Stop the Dark Ages from happening, so that Asia and Europe could both progress.

[The Huskar Social Union]

There was a slim chance they may have surrendered with out an invasion, the soviets did an ungodly amount of damage to the Japanese military in Manchuria and the islands north of the mainland, and they were more than prepared for an invasion. From what ive seen in documentaries this was one of the main reasons they contemplated surrender to the allies, and as far as i know they tried to surrender but the allies would not accept anything short of an unconditional surrender, maybe with someone else as president they may have agreed to a compromise treaty of sorts. But in the end, they were fucking insane (government wise) so it might not have happened.

They were not going to surrender fast enough. The soviets were as their back door, and the US didn't want Japan to be divided like Germany. The use of the nukes may have been evil but it is nothing compared to Japan's many war crimes.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese ... #section_3

In my opinion, first nuke was necessary, the second one, i dont know. But yeah Japan did some pretty horrible things back then.

[The Imperium of Mann]

-Tell Reagan to stick with his acting career and stay out of politics

Say anything you want about his policies but the man scared the shit out of the soviets, and possibly accelerated the end of the Cold War.

[Fintanland]

I would argue the best age in american history was the 1950's.

The 1950's? The time before civil rights for blacks and women caught on? Sucked for anyone who was not white, male and Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Dakini]

...a lot of that is because the military encouraged the civilians to do this.

Imperial Japan was fucking insane.

Indeed. They portrayed the Americans as ruthless animals which resulted in thousands of suicides.

GG Japan.

Not even just that. It seems that the Japanese military did things like give people live hand grenades so they could kill themselves and/or forced people to do it.

[The Imperium of Mann]

Indeed. They portrayed the Americans as ruthless animals which resulted in thousands of suicides.

GG Japan.

Not even just that. It seems that the Japanese military did things like give people live hand grenades so they could kill themselves and/or forced people to do it.

They also commited horrible war crimes.

[Fintanland]

Say anything you want about his policies but the man scared the shit out of the soviets, and possibly accelerated the end of the Cold War.

The Soviet Union had already been going through a long period of economic stagnation. How much the arms race sped up the collapse is very debatable.

[The Imperium of Mann]

Say anything you want about his policies but the man scared the shit out of the soviets, and possibly accelerated the end of the Cold War.

The Soviet Union had already been going through a long period of economic stagnation. How much the arms race sped up the collapse is very debatable.

Everything in this thread is debatable since we don't know for sure what would happen if X never happened. Time travel is confusing as hell.

[Dakini]

I would argue the best age in american history was the 1950's.

The 1950's? The time before civil rights for blacks and women caught on? Sucked for anyone who was not white, male and Dwight D. Eisenhower

Yeah, it's funny how that works, isn't it?

[EnragedMaldivians]

Stopped reading. Stop being so anti-America.

The book is worth a read. The book often uses quotes from Obama's own biography to show why Obama is misguided and potentially dangerous. The book also focuses heavily on Obama's abandonment of Israel. He even said that he supports a Palestine state!

Just like George W.Bush did. Ever heard of the two state solution? Think that was Obama's idea?

The Arabs invade Israel in 1967, Israel takes lands away as a punishment and Obama wants Israel to hand them back.

The 1967 war is more complicated than that. I'll briefly summarise

Due to Fedayeen groups operating from Syria and Israel's policy of disproportionate retaliation the Syrians and Israelis had been engaging in aerial battles over the Golan heights; on one such skirmish the Syrians had six of their planes shot down and, feeling humiliated, they turned to Egypt for assistance.

Egypt's Nasser did not immediate declare war on Israel; he closed the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping (for which the Israelis falsely claimed casus belli) and sent troops into the Sinai, which is Egyptian territory. In the meanwhile he met with other regional Arab leaders to sign defence pacts. Less known is that also in the meanwhile he was sending signals to both Washington and Tel Aviv that he was not unwilling to consider a political solution - which were ignored.

I don't care much for the Arab States' behaviour, and I don't have much sympathy for Syria for having lost the Golan heights, but ultimately it was Israel that declared war. And, broadly speaking, Israel's behaviour towards the Arabs, especially the Palestinians have hardly been innocent.

I suggest you don't talk about things you don't understand.

[Fintanland]

Everything in this thread is debatable since we don't know for sure what would happen if X never happened. Time travel is confusing as hell.

Yeah, let's leave it at that. I would ascribe the collapse of the Soviet Union mainly to other causes: Unresolved nationalism issues, the lack of strong leadership (by which I mean leaders with the will to try and start some reforms), the Afghanistan boondoggle...

[Pirate Girl]

Make my grandparents invest in Apple and Microsoft

[Dakini]

Not even just that. It seems that the Japanese military did things like give people live hand grenades so they could kill themselves and/or forced people to do it.

They also commited horrible war crimes.

Yeah. They were pretty terrible to POWs and civilians (both abroad and in Japan itself).

Like I said, Imperial Japan was fucking insane.

[Suicune]

Not even just that. It seems that the Japanese military did things like give people live hand grenades so they could kill themselves and/or forced people to do it.

They also commited horrible war crimes.

America didn't?

[Neu Niederlande]

Prevent America from funding the Mujahideen and therefore preventing the Taliban (hopefully)

I have no clue what would happen then.

[The Imperium of Mann]

Everything in this thread is debatable since we don't know for sure what would happen if X never happened. Time travel is confusing as hell.

Yeah, let's leave it at that. I would ascribe the collapse of the Soviet Union mainly to other causes: Unresolved nationalism issues, the lack of strong leadership (by which I mean leaders with the will to try and start some reforms), the Afghanistan boondoggle...

The only thing I would change is the outcome of operation Valkyrie. If they succeeded the deaths of many, and the pillaging of Germany by the soviets prevented.

[Fintanland]

The only thing I would change is the outcome of operation Valkyrie. If they succeeded the deaths of many, and the pillaging of Germany by the soviets prevented.

If the allies had agreed to a peace with the Staufenberg crew, that is. Some of the western allied leaders were more on board with that than others.

[The Imperium of Mann]

They also commited horrible war crimes.

America didn't?

Did I say America was innocent in this? No. America commited war crimes but they aren't anywhere near as horrific as the Japanese warcrimes.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Yeah, let's leave it at that. I would ascribe the collapse of the Soviet Union mainly to other causes: Unresolved nationalism issues, the lack of strong leadership (by which I mean leaders with the will to try and start some reforms), the Afghanistan boondoggle...

The only thing I would change is the outcome of operation Valkyrie. If they succeeded the deaths of many, and the pillaging of Germany by the soviets prevented.

I dont think the soviets would simply stop their counter attacks across eastern Europe after everything that was done to them. They were really pissed.

[Central European Commonwealth]

My nation is based on an alternate history where a number of things went different in 1730-1820...

From my factbook:

The foundation of the Central European Commonwealth, 1730-1820
The Central European Commonwealth can trace its origins back to the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This chapter will focus on the development of the modern state.
During the reign of Władysław IV (1632–48), the liberum veto had evolved. This policy of parliamentary procedure was based on the assumption of the political equality of every "gentleman", with the corollary that unanimous consent was needed for all measures. A single member of parliament's belief that a measure was injurious to his own constituency (usually simply his own estate), even after the act had already been approved, became enough to strike the act. It became increasingly difficult to get action taken. The liberum veto also provided openings for foreign diplomats to get their ways, through bribing nobles to exercise it. Thus, one could characterise Poland–Lithuania in its final period (mid-18th century) before the partition as already in a state of disorder and not a completely sovereign state. Alternatively, one might be tempted to visualize it almost as a vassal state, or in modern terms, a Russian satellite state, with Russian tsars effectively choosing Polish kings. This applies particularly to the last Commonwealth King Stanisław August Poniatowski, who for some time had been a lover of Russian Empress Catherine the Great.

In 1730 the neighbours of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita), namely Prussia, Austria and Russia, signed a secret agreement to maintain the status quo: specifically, to ensure that the Commonwealth laws would not change. Their alliance later became known in Poland as the "Alliance of the Three Black Eagles" (or Löwenwolde's Treaty), because all three states used a black eagle as a state symbol (in contrast to the white eagle, a symbol of Poland). The Commonwealth had been forced to rely on Russia for protection against the rising Kingdom of Prussia, while Prussia was demanding a slice of the northwest in order to unite its Western and Eastern portions, although this would leave the Commonwealth with a Baltic coast only in Latvia and Lithuania. The Commonwealth could never be liquidated unless its longtime ally, Austria, allowed it, and first Catherine had to use diplomacy to win Austria to her side.

The Commonwealth fought on the side of Austria and France during the seven years' war, which forced Catherine to ally with Prussia. Frederick II of Prussia retaliated by ordering enough Polish currency counterfeited to severely affect the Polish economy. Through the last Polish nobles whom Russia controlled and the Russian Minister to Warsaw, ambassador and Prince Nicholas Repnin, Empress Catherine the Great tried to force a constitution on the Commonwealth at the so-called Repnin Sejm of 1767, named after ambassador Repnin, which ultimately failed and resulted in the exile of Repnin and his supporters to Kaluga in the Russian Empire. This new constitution would've undone the reforms made in 1764 regarding the liberum veto under Stanisław II. Repnin also demanded religious freedom for the Protestant and Orthodox Christians, which did succeed, however, the deep resentment of Russian intervention in the Commonwealth's domestic affairs, led the Poles to expel all Russian diplomats and officials from Commonwealth territory. The Russians retaliated by allying with the Prussians which would lead to the partition of Poland in 1771.

In July 1771, the agreement of partition was signed in Berlin. Early in August the Russian and Prussian troops simultaneously entered the Commonwealth and occupied the provinces agreed upon among themselves. On August 5, 1771, the occupation manifesto was issued. The partition treaty was ratified by its signatories on September 22, 1771. Frederick II of Prussia was elated with his success; Prussia took most of the Polish Royal Prussia that stood between its possessions in the Kingdom of Prussia and the Margraviate of Brandenburg, taking Ermland (Warmia), Royal Prussia without the city of Danzig (Gdańsk), which in 1772 became a new province called West Prussia, northern areas of Greater Poland along the Noteć River (the Netze District), and parts of Kuyavia, including the Prussian city of Thorn (Toruń). Catherine of Russia was also very satisfied. By this "diplomatic document" Russia came into possession of that section of Livonia that had remained in Commonwealth control, and of Belarus embracing the counties of Vitebsk, Polotsk and Mstislavl.

By this partition the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth lost about 20% of its territory and a third of its population, (three million people), of which a large portion had not been ethnically Polish. By seizing northwestern Poland, Prussia instantly gained control over 80% of the Commonwealth's total foreign trade. Through levying enormous customs duties, Prussia tried to accelerate the collapse of the Commonwealth. After having occupied their respective territories, both partitioning powers demanded that King Stanisław and the Sejm approve their action. When no help was forthcoming and the armies of the combined nations occupied Warsaw to compel by force of arms the calling of the assembly, no alternative could be chosen save passive submission to their will. The so-called Partition Sejm, with Russian military forces threatening the opposition, on March 12, 1773, signed the treaty of cession, renouncing all claims of the Commonwealth to the occupied territories.

The Kraków Uprising

The first partition in 1771 did not directly threaten the stability of the Polish-Lithuanian state. Poland still retained extensive territory that included the Polish heartlands. Moreover, the shock of the annexations made clear the dangers of decay in government institutions, creating a body of opinion favorable to reform along the lines of the European Enlightenment. King Stanisław August supported the progressive elements in the government and promoted the ideas of foreign political figures such as Edmund Burke and George Washington. Polish intellectuals studied and discussed Enlightenment philosophers such as Montesquieu and Rousseau. During the period of Enlightenment in Poland, the concept of democratic institutions for all classes was accepted in the more progressive circles of Polish society. Education reform included the establishment of the first ministry of education in Europe (the Commission of National Education). Taxation and the army underwent thorough reform, and central executive government was established as the Permanent Council. Landholders emancipated large numbers of peasants, although there was no official government decree. Polish cities and business enterprises, in decline for many decades, were revived by the influence of the Industrial Revolution, especially in mining and textiles.

Stanisław August's process of renovation reached its climax when, after three years of intense debate, the "Great Sejm" produced the Constitution of April 17, 1779, which historian Norman Davies called "the first constitution of its kind in the world". Many believe that the liberal spirit of this document inspired the contemporaneous constitution in the United States. The 1779 constitution recast Poland-Lithuania as a hereditary monarchy and got rid of many of the eccentricities and antiquated features of the old system of government. The new constitution abolished the individual veto in parliament; provided a separation of powers among the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government; and established "people's sovereignty" (for the noble and bourgeois classes). The single thing that would be decisive for the survival of this new, democratic state in the heart of Europe in the following years was the formation of a professional army similar to that in the United States of America.

Passage of the constitution alarmed many nobles, some of whom would lose considerable stature under the new order. In autocratic states such as Russia, the democratic ideals of the new constitution also threatened the existing order, and the prospect of Polish recovery threatened to end domination of Polish affairs by Poland's neighbors. In 1785, Polish conservative factions formed the Confederation of Stanisławów and appealed for Russian assistance in restoring the status quo. Empress Catherine was happy to use this opportunity; enlisting Austrian support, she invaded Poland under the pretext of defending Poland's ancient liberties. A defensive war against powerful Russian armies was fought in 1785 with great success, but the irresolute Stanislaw August, who did not believe in the possibility of defeating the Russian Empire, capitulated, defecting to the Stanisławów Confederation. This led to the deposal of King Poniatowski by the more progressive factions in government and the re-establishment of the ancient capital of Kraków, under control of Marcin Krzemiński.

On December 7th, 1785, Krzemiński issued the Declaration of Wadowice, in which he granted full civil liberties to the entire population of the commonwealth. This declaration overhauled the old system and extended the right to vote, which under the previous constitution only applied to nobles and townsfolk, also to the peasants. The Declaration of Wadowice also granted the peasants full access to the judicial system and stripped the Szlachta which sided with the Confederation of Stanisławów of their lands and property. Peasants were organized in Dozorcy, representing about 1000 families and sending one representative to the board of advisers of the newly founded Ministry of Agriculture. Over the next few years, many peasants enlisted in the army, to defend their newly acquired liberties. Survival of the Commonwealth had come at the price of alienating their old ally Austria and one-third of its noble class from it.

By the spring of 1786 the armies under command of Krzemiński outnumbered those under Poniatowski two to one. Austria, although officially siding with the Russians at this stage, never gave anything more than token support to the conservative cause, and Prussia had at this stage the majority of their forces tied up in France, where a revolution against their king took place in 1784, inspired by the Polish cause. By 1787, Krzemiński's forces, now under command of the brilliant general Tadeusz Kościuszko, had all but driven the Russian forces from the Polish heartland. December 12th, 1787 marked the final battle between the armies of Kościuszko and Catharine, near the village of Racławice in Małopolskie, where a 30.000-men strong Russian army was all but routed by 17.000 well-trained Poles. A cease-fire between Russia and Poland-Lithuania was signed in Suwałki on February 1st, 1788. Poniatowski, now stripped of his support surrendered on February 19, 1788 in the town of Kamieniec Podolski. Krzemiński, certain that these men would do more harm than good to the modernized commonwealth, allowed the deposed king to retain the easternmost lands of the old commonwealth, which mark the modern-day Kingdom of Ukraine. On May 3, 1791 the final peace treaty was signed between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the now Kingdom of Ukraine, Austria and Russia, in which the modern eastern border was finalized, as well as a declaration of neutrality in each others affairs. Poland-Lithuania ensured Russian and Austrian neutrality with a centralized, professional army under command of the Sejm.

Westward Expansion, 1794-1820

The events in Poland in the late 1770's and 1780's most likely fueled the French Revolution, although historians nowadays agree that the revolution in France would've happened even if the events in Poland never transpired. Prussia, however, with their own imperial ambitions and with now the first modern democracy on their eastern border, the Dutch Republic on their western border and the events unravelling in France, was eager to help the French monarch when the Bastille was stormed in 1784. The Prussians, however had most of their forces tied up in the western half of Prussia as well as in France, expecting the Russians to deal with the Poles. As of such, the Polish victory in 1787-88 came as a complete shock to the Prussians, although they were reassured when the Poles seemed to exhibit no intention of expanding their country at first. The popular uprisings in Poland and France, however, did spark more of such revolutions throughout Europe, most notably in the Electorate of Hanover, which was in a very uncomfortable position between Prussia and the Dutch. This boiled over in 1794, when the Prussians responded to the request of the Hanover monarchy to put the rebellion down there, the rebels there formally requested the Poles to intervene on their behalf.

The Sejm voted unanimously on March 10, 1795 to send troops to Hanover to fight on the side of the rebels there, officially declaring war on the Prussians. With the Prussians now fighting on three fronts, and their troops unevenly spread, primarily in the western parts of Prussia, it took the Poles less than a year to regain all territory lost in the 1771 partition, and on April 7, 1796, the Polish Army crossed the river Oder. Kościuszko managed to garner support for the Polish cause in the United States, where he had fought side by side with George Washington during the American War of Independence, and the United States officially entered the war on the continent in July 1796, some scholars believe that the primary cause for this eager response was due to the support the Prussians had given the English during the American War of Independence, instead of Kościuszko's influence. With England intervening on the side of the Prussians and the Dutch being officially neutral, but unofficially allowing Poles and Americans to use their ports to supply the rebels in France and Hanover, World War 1 had now begun.

Berlin fell to the Poles on September 25, 1797, and Magdeburg in the first week of March 1798. By the summer of 1798 the only territory the Prussians maintained east of the river Elbe was the fortified city of Königsberg. The fast-paced campaign in Prussia is nowadays attributed to three factors - first, the organized and professional Polish military needed a solid industrial base which had come to existence during their own war of independence in the 1780's and was considered to be by far the most advanced of any nation at that time, second, the professional Polish soldiers went a long way to prevent abuses from taking place among the non-combatants of the areas they conquered, and third the idea of popular sovereignty proved to be decisive in winning support among the already willing peasants of Prussia. This caused the Prussian population to basically switch sides. Königsberg fell to the Poles on January 7th, 1800 and by 1801 the Prussians were reduced to a rump state based along the river Rhine. This is where the remaining Prussian population openly rebelled against their ruler, and King Frederick Wilhelm II was executed by a mob in Düsseldorf on April 19, 1803.

A formal peace was negotiated with the Prussians in 1805, and the treaty was signed in Hanover on December 12, 1805 between Krzemiński and Hans Richter, leader of the new Rhenish Republic. Krzemiński's armies then continued the fight in France, which culminated alongside American and Free French forces in the battle of Marseille of 1807, where the armies of King Louis XVI had made their final stand. This battle, which raged on for 3 months, is most arguably the bloodiest battle in modern European history, where over 200.000 people found their deaths, and the city of Marseille reduced to rubble. Displaced citizens of the region numbered over half a million and the amount of displaced people which found their untimely death during the winter of 1807-1808 is unknown. What is known, is that when the treaty of Versailles was signed in November 1808, the map of Europe was completely redrawn. In forty years, the insignificant and chaotic Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had emerged as the economic powerhouse of Central Europe, and with the exception of England, Austria and Bavaria, ruling monarchies had all but disappeared in Central Europe.

During the following years, the secession of parts of the Netherlands with a Catholic majority as well as Bohemia from Austria required the commonwealth to re-innovate itself, which took place with the constitution of 1820, in which the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ceased to exist as a constitutional monarchy with the king as figurehead, and reappeared as the Central European Commonwealth, a federal, democratic multi-lingual state, led by an elected president.

[Yugoslavia-]

If I could change history, Yugoslavia would democratize at any earlier stage, so that nations would not secede in an inferno of national conflict. All would be happy in a new, big Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Please spoiler the wall of text Central European Commonwealth. Thats a bit much.

[Ifreann]

The US is doing better than ever.

AHAHHAHAHAHAH

No.

I would argue the best age in american history was the 1950's.

People living under the constant threat of nuclear war, with rampant racism and sexism, was the best age in American history? Shit son, you best be trippin balls.

[Dakini]

They also commited horrible war crimes.

America didn't?

I don't think on the same level or scale as Japan during that era.

[EnragedMaldivians]

-Tell Reagan to stick with his acting career and stay out of politics

Say anything you want about his policies but the man scared the shit out of the soviets, and possibly accelerated the end of the Cold War.

Exaggerated. It was Jimmy Carter and Zbiegnew Brezinsky who laid the groundwork for eschewing detente and renewing America's policy of aggressively containing the Soviets late in the Carter administration.

In any event, the Brehznev doctrine and, directly as a result of this doctrine, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (in 1979, before Reagan took office) exacerbated the structural problems that were already evident in their economy.

Their increasing of their defence spending in response to Reagan's announcement of his strategic defence initiative was, at most, among a few of the last straws that finally broke the camel's back.