Healthcare: Right or Privilege?

[Celritannia]

Paying for a service you have used is stealing apparently.

Given the choice she would have likely opted out of the system meaning no money out and no benefits in. She had no choice but to be part of the system. She used a service she was forced to pay for.

Seeing as you are an American, I am going to guess you are big on democracy, so I shall use a simple scenario.

A political Party has announced in their manifesto they will set up a universal healthcare system if they win the election.
This political party then wins with a landslide majority and thus establishes a UHS as promised in their political platform.
Is that wrong?

Also, Healthcare is a RIGHT!

[Samuraikoku]

You steal from me and offer me my money back, what should I say? 'No, I hate theft but if I take back my money it means I support theft'?

She took her money back, she was selfish as we should be. 'Virtue of Selfishness' she followed that code in this case.

Hypocrite.

[Twilliamson]

yes the right to be able to live even if you are poor and sick seems preety good.

[Sciongrad]

Of course it's a right. Unless you think that the lives of the poor and unfortunate mean less than the lives of the well-to-do.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

I think healthcare is a privilege. Why should anyone be entitled to the hard work of doctors and nurses? If you can not pay for something, the responsibility does not then fall on the government to pay for it. Unless it is provided by a private charitable organization, healthcare should absolutely not be free or paid for by the government.

I go to Veterans Administration hospitals, and never, ever leave with the contempt for my fellow Americans required to wish government were in charge of their healthcare as well.

[Wisconsin9]

Here is what a smart lady believed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

But-but-but taxes are theft!

Which we've already established as bullshit in another thread because the Union has specific rights to collect tax from you.
Apologies if you were being sarcastic, I can't recall what your actual opinion on that topic was.

Well, I have a communist version of the Wisconsin flag, so... yes. I was absolutely serious. Taxes are theft, people kill people, impeach Obama.

[Freiheit Reich]

Given the choice she would have likely opted out of the system meaning no money out and no benefits in. She had no choice but to be part of the system. She used a service she was forced to pay for.

Seeing as you are an American, I am going to guess you are big on democracy, so I shall use a simple scenario.

A political Party has announced in their manifesto they will set up a universal healthcare system if they win the election.
This political party then wins with a landslide majority and thus establishes a UHS as promised in their political platform.
Is that wrong?

Also, Healthcare is a RIGHT!

Democracy can be dangerous (tyranny by majority). Certain rights and freedoms must be unalienable.

Healthcare should never be required (including having to pay for healthcare coverage).

Perhaps a clause that nobody should be forced to purchase a private company's goods (such as health insurance).

Democracy will cause more civil liberties to erode (such as gun rights). No, democracy is not always good unless some rights are unalienable.

Hitler had the popular majority on his side, does this mean the NAZIs were right? Today, many people say no but at the time most Germans loved Hitler and his crew. Yes, he did not have an election BUT judging by thousands cheering him it seems he would have done quite well in an election.

[Samuraikoku]

Hitler had the popular majority on his side, does this mean the NAZIs were right? Today, many people say no but at the time most Germans loved Hitler and his crew. Yes, he did not have an election BUT judging by thousands cheering him it seems he would have done quite well in an election.

WRONG!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

[Enadail]

Seeing as you are an American, I am going to guess you are big on democracy, so I shall use a simple scenario.

A political Party has announced in their manifesto they will set up a universal healthcare system if they win the election.
This political party then wins with a landslide majority and thus establishes a UHS as promised in their political platform.
Is that wrong?

Also, Healthcare is a RIGHT!

Democracy can be dangerous (tyranny by majority). Certain rights and freedoms must be unalienable.

Healthcare should never be required (including having to pay for healthcare coverage).

Perhaps a clause that nobody should be forced to purchase a private company's goods (such as health insurance).

Democracy will cause more civil liberties to erode (such as gun rights). No, democracy is not always good unless some rights are unalienable.

Hitler had the popular majority on his side, does this mean the NAZIs were right? Today, many people say no but at the time most Germans loved Hitler and his crew. Yes, he did not have an election BUT judging by thousands cheering him it seems he would have done quite well in an election.

When he first came to power, most Germans loved him. As soon as he became a dictator, he instantly lost popularity. What does that say to your example?

[Enadail]

Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

I think healthcare is a privilege. Why should anyone be entitled to the hard work of doctors and nurses? If you can not pay for something, the responsibility does not then fall on the government to pay for it. Unless it is provided by a private charitable organization, healthcare should absolutely not be free or paid for by the government.

I go to Veterans Administration hospitals, and never, ever leave with the contempt for my fellow Americans required to wish government were in charge of their healthcare as well.

Very strange, as I also have friends who go ot the VA and are thankful they have someone who can help cover their health concerns when they can't.

Of course, public healthcare would be the government funding you to go to the same doctors most of us are going to now, so I fail to see why it'd be an issue?

[Celritannia]

Democracy can be dangerous (tyranny by majority). Certain rights and freedoms must be unalienable.

Healthcare should never be required (including having to pay for healthcare coverage).

Perhaps a clause that nobody should be forced to purchase a private company's goods (such as health insurance).

Democracy will cause more civil liberties to erode (such as gun rights). No, democracy is not always good unless some rights are unalienable.

Hitler had the popular majority on his side, does this mean the NAZIs were right? Today, many people say no but at the time most Germans loved Hitler and his crew. Yes, he did not have an election BUT judging by thousands cheering him it seems he would have done quite well in an election.

The Labour victory in 1946 UK General Election (which was my scenario) never seemed to be tryannical. On the contrary, people applauded Attlee's government. He was not one for power, but rather, he wanted to ensure the people were safe and secure, thus his government established the wealfare system.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

Classic liberal argument, she addressed in in 1966 and liberals ignore her comments:

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/libera ... -benefits/

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/blo ... ecting-it/

Hipocrisy is hipocrisy, can't justify doing against what you preach now can you?

I'm not sure you can rape someone and then call her a slut for putting out before marriage.

Rand exercised her choice to collect money from a fund she had no choice in paying into. If paying into Social Security were voluntary, she would indeed be a hypocrite if she did not pay into it yet collected from it.

I'm no Rand fan, but the "Ayn Rand took welfare" line of attack is too facile to bring to an intellectual discussion.

[Samuraikoku]

Hipocrisy is hipocrisy, can't justify doing against what you preach now can you?

I'm not sure you can rape someone and then call her a slut for putting out before marriage.

Rand exercised her choice to collect money from a fund she had no choice in paying into. If paying into Social Security were voluntary, she would indeed be a hypocrite if she did not pay into it yet collected from it.

I'm no Rand fan, but the "Ayn Rand took welfare" line of attack is too facile to bring to an intellectual discussion.

This assuming taxation is theft. It's not.

[Divair]

I'm not sure you can rape someone and then call her a slut for putting out before marriage.

Rand exercised her choice to collect money from a fund she had no choice in paying into. If paying into Social Security were voluntary, she would indeed be a hypocrite if she did not pay into it yet collected from it.

I'm no Rand fan, but the "Ayn Rand took welfare" line of attack is too facile to bring to an intellectual discussion.

This assuming taxation is theft. It's not.

It's rent.

[Samuraikoku]

It's rent.

If you think taxation in terms of a contract, the an-caps and Randroids will tell you "BUT TEH STATE FORCED ME TO TEH CONTRACT!!!111". There is a legal obligation to pay taxes, in return for the State to provide basic subsistence means for the survival of the community. There is no contract, there is only the law. What citizens may think is irrelevant.

[Celritannia]

It's rent.

If you think taxation in terms of a contract, the an-caps and Randroids will tell you "BUT TEH STATE FORCED ME TO TEH CONTRACT!!!111". There is a legal obligation to pay taxes, in return for the State to provide basic subsistence means for the survival of the community. There is no contract, there is only the law. What citizens may think is irrelevant.

According to Wikipedia, cited from Black's Law Dictionary, a tax is 'an enforced contribution'.
A person forced to contribute to the upkeep of the state they live in

[Saiwania]

Pfft, healthcare. I am young and healthy, I will not need any doctors for a long while if everything goes right. But if I did, I might be just as content to go without medical help and try to get better on my own.

[Samuraikoku]

According to Wikipedia, cited from Black's Law Dictionary, a tax is 'an enforced contribution'.
A person forced to contribute to the upkeep of the state they live in

What good is a law if it cannot be enforced?

[Divair]

If you think taxation in terms of a contract, the an-caps and Randroids will tell you "BUT TEH STATE FORCED ME TO TEH CONTRACT!!!111". There is a legal obligation to pay taxes, in return for the State to provide basic subsistence means for the survival of the community. There is no contract, there is only the law. What citizens may think is irrelevant.

According to Wikipedia, cited from Black's Law Dictionary, a tax is 'an enforced contribution'.
A person forced to contribute to the upkeep of the state they live in

Well, yes, so is rent.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

I go to Veterans Administration hospitals, and never, ever leave with the contempt for my fellow Americans required to wish government were in charge of their healthcare as well.

Very strange, as I also have friends who go ot the VA and are thankful they have someone who can help cover their health concerns when they can't.

Of course, public healthcare would be the government funding you to go to the same doctors most of us are going to now, so I fail to see why it'd be an issue?

It's not quite the same. We don't and won't have a government takeover of healthcare, even with Obamacare. But with the VA, you have a model of what that would look like. More Walter Reed and less Mayo Clinic. Another analogy would be FEMA trailers and slums everywhere if some genius decided the government needed to take over housing people.

The health care given to veterans by VA hospitals is mostly abominable compared to what people (with money) are getting in the private sector. The government needs to show it can handle the health care industry that is already under its purview before taking over the entire industry.

But, the argument is moot, really, as there is no government takeover of health care now or later.

[Vitaphone Racing]

According to Wikipedia, cited from Black's Law Dictionary, a tax is 'an enforced contribution'.
A person forced to contribute to the upkeep of the state they live in

Well, yes, so is rent.

I wouldn't compare it to rent, personally. Rent is rent, tax is tax, the two are ultimately similar in concept but not interchangable terms. Rent is based on an agreement, you are mandated to pay your taxes whether you agree to the terms or not.

[Divair]

or later.

Don't count your eggs before they hatch.

[Celritannia]

According to Wikipedia, cited from Black's Law Dictionary, a tax is 'an enforced contribution'.
A person forced to contribute to the upkeep of the state they live in

What good is a law if it cannot be enforced?

Law? I just said Black's Law Dictionary
But then again, wouldn't taxes be enforced by certain agencies, like HM Revenue and Customs (UK) and Internal Revenue Service (US)?

[Poloian]

Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

I think healthcare is a privilege. Why should anyone be entitled to the hard work of doctors and nurses? If you can not pay for something, the responsibility does not then fall on the government to pay for it. Unless it is provided by a private charitable organization, healthcare should absolutely not be free or paid for by the government.

Indeed, why should anyone have the right to not die a horrible death and go bankrupt in the process?

Yes because that never happens in Canadian hospitals.

[Divair]

Indeed, why should anyone have the right to not die a horrible death and go bankrupt in the process?

Yes because that never happens in Canadian hospitals.

Well, no, it doesn't. Free healthcare and what not.