Healthcare: Right or Privilege?

[Samozaryadnyastan]

I understand I'm coming in late to this conversation.

Perhaps it would help to define what a right is?

I define a right as a guarantee to action, not a tangible thing or service provided.

Rights belong to individual humans. This is due to the metaphysical nature of the human condition.

So therefore there's no right to Healthcare because that would make doctors and nurses slaves to the sick.

Society should strive to be based on voluntary transactions.

UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Article 25.
Read it.

In a way, even in the US, doctors and nurses are slaves to the sick anyway. They're duty-bound to provide life-saving care if necessary.

[Sociobiology]

Privledge, agree with OP.

People will abuse things that are free. Look at public housing projects. You see vandalism and grafitti everywhere there. Instead of people living there being grateful, they often whine about how society is keeping them down (while having babies out of wedlock, smoking, drinking booze, and buying expensive sneakers like Adidas and Nike).

Healthcare costs are too high because of insurance and regulations. I think people should be able to be doctors with a 4 year degree and OJT. This will cause doctor's wages to drop. Lower nursing requirements as well, 1 year and OJT. Import more drugs from overseas (and medical personnel as well).

End Medicare and other govt. insurance programs.

Lowering costs will help many people out.

and fuck the rest, am I right. :S

[New England and The Maritimes]

It is a right.

[Orham]

Perhaps it would help to define what a right is?

I define a right as a guarantee to action, not a tangible thing or service provided.

I define rights with reference to four conceivable characteristics:

Universal: A right which is conferred to every individual in a given society.
Selective: A right which is conferred to part, but not the whole, of society.
Positive: A right which obliges action.
Negative: A right which obliges inaction.

Guaranteeing provision of healthcare for all individuals in society would be providing a universal positive right to healthcare.

Rights belong to individual humans. This is due to the metaphysical nature of the human condition.

Rights can be conferred to non-human entities, and there are perfectly practical reasons for creating such rights. An example of a right given to non-human entities is national sovereignty, the negative right which prevents Nation A from violating Nation B's force monopoly within the boundaries of Nation B's territory.

So therefore there's no right to Healthcare because that would make doctors and nurses slaves to the sick.

Given that it is conceivable a state might compensate doctors and nurses for their services and provide incentives to voluntarily take on healthcare positions in the context of a society which provides a universal positive right to said services, I find myself unable to accept the suggested case of entailment between creation of a positive right to healthcare services and the creation of a slave class.

Society should strive to be based on voluntary transactions.

That's how you feel, and I respect that. It is not my position that everything which can be made into a voluntary transaction ought to be.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Nothing is voluntary. We are all shaped by our experiences and circumstances. We have no free will in some absolute mystical sense, and it's pretty harmful to the general good to say otherwise.

[Chestaan]

Privledge, agree with OP.

People will abuse things that are free. Look at public housing projects. You see vandalism and grafitti everywhere there. Instead of people living there being grateful, they often whine about how society is keeping them down (while having babies out of wedlock, smoking, drinking booze, and buying expensive sneakers like Adidas and Nike).

Healthcare costs are too high because of insurance and regulations. I think people should be able to be doctors with a 4 year degree and OJT. This will cause doctor's wages to drop. Lower nursing requirements as well, 1 year and OJT. Import more drugs from overseas (and medical personnel as well).

End Medicare and other govt. insurance programs.

Lowering costs will help many people out.

How can free healthcare be abused? Either you're sick or your not. Your not going to cut your own leg off just because healthcare is free.

[Orham]

Nothing is voluntary. We are all shaped by our experiences and circumstances. We have no free will in some absolute mystical sense, and it's pretty harmful to the general good to say otherwise.

So you take the position that the human condition is composed of nothing more than a very large list of "stimulus ---> response" relationships of varying complexity? You reject the assumption of a calculating, rational individual? Or have I misunderstood you?

[Chestaan]

Nothing is voluntary. We are all shaped by our experiences and circumstances. We have no free will in some absolute mystical sense, and it's pretty harmful to the general good to say otherwise.

So you take the position that the human condition is composed of nothing more than a very large list of "stimulus ---> response" relationships of varying complexity? You reject the assumption of a calculating, rational individual? Or have I misunderstood you?

Nothing that New England has said is incompatible with the assumption of rational individuals.

Think about it this way, a rational individual will choose the action that he believes will make him best off at that time. But given a specific set of circumstances, and an individuals particular desires, there is only ever ONE outcome he will arrive at at any given time. He was always going to choose that outcome from the beginning of time.

[Orham]

Nothing that New England has said is incompatible with the assumption of rational individuals.

Think about it this way, a rational individual will choose the action that he believes will make him best off at that time. But given a specific set of circumstances, and an individuals particular desires, there is only ever ONE outcome he will arrive at at any given time. He was always going to choose that outcome from the beginning of time.

No, I suppose it's not a rejection of the rational individual after all. But I'm finding it difficult to accept that there is absolutely no possible world where an individual with a particular set of circumstances might be presented with two or more equally optimal courses.

[Nuevo Val Verde]

It is a human right.

[Chestaan]

Nothing that New England has said is incompatible with the assumption of rational individuals.

Think about it this way, a rational individual will choose the action that he believes will make him best off at that time. But given a specific set of circumstances, and an individuals particular desires, there is only ever ONE outcome he will arrive at at any given time. He was always going to choose that outcome from the beginning of time.

No, I suppose it's not a rejection of the rational individual after all. But I'm finding it difficult to accept that there is absolutely no possible world where an individual with a particular set of circumstances might be presented with two or more equally optimal courses.

But are two things ever truly equal? Say I showed you two planks of wood and I told you they were both 20cm long. Are they equally long? No, they only appear to be because of the units of measurement I have used. One might be 20.0001cm and the other might be 20.000000000001cm long.

But I see your point. There may be a very, very slight chance that a person will perceive that two actions are exactly equal. But I would think that in this case that there would be something which would push the individual in one way or the other at one point.

You may well be correct, though. I cannot say for sure and I'm not sure that anyone can.

[Freiheit Reich]

Privledge, agree with OP.

People will abuse things that are free. Look at public housing projects. You see vandalism and grafitti everywhere there. Instead of people living there being grateful, they often whine about how society is keeping them down (while having babies out of wedlock, smoking, drinking booze, and buying expensive sneakers like Adidas and Nike).

Healthcare costs are too high because of insurance and regulations. I think people should be able to be doctors with a 4 year degree and OJT. This will cause doctor's wages to drop. Lower nursing requirements as well, 1 year and OJT. Import more drugs from overseas (and medical personnel as well).

End Medicare and other govt. insurance programs.

Lowering costs will help many people out.

This ignores the fact that you are outright disagreeing with the international court of human rights on the issue.

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

The human rights issue sounds great BUT does not address who will pay for these things. You have to steal from Peter to pay for Paul's medical care. Is this fair to Peter? Maybe Peter worked hard in school, never did drugs, works hard at work, and should enjoy his bread. Paul was a bully in high school. He used drugs and never studied. He dropped out if school. Paul likes to party hard and drink heavily. He has been fired for showing up to work drunk or not showing up at all. Paul is a bum and Peter works hard. Paul got liver disease from heavy drinking. He needs medical care. The govt. steals Peter's bread to pay for Paul's medical care.

Is this right? Does Paul the worthless bum deserve Peter's hard earned bread? Let charities pay if they wish, if not then let Paul die.

[Samuraikoku]

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

In no way. Lrn2international law.

[Freiheit Reich]

Privledge, agree with OP.

People will abuse things that are free. Look at public housing projects. You see vandalism and grafitti everywhere there. Instead of people living there being grateful, they often whine about how society is keeping them down (while having babies out of wedlock, smoking, drinking booze, and buying expensive sneakers like Adidas and Nike).

Healthcare costs are too high because of insurance and regulations. I think people should be able to be doctors with a 4 year degree and OJT. This will cause doctor's wages to drop. Lower nursing requirements as well, 1 year and OJT. Import more drugs from overseas (and medical personnel as well).

End Medicare and other govt. insurance programs.

Lowering costs will help many people out.

How can free healthcare be abused? Either you're sick or your not. Your not going to cut your own leg off just because healthcare is free.

Going to the doctor to get a sick day from work.

Wanting pain pills and faking an injury to get them.

Wanting to look pretty and getting plastic surgery (if this is covered).

Going to the doctor for minor issues like colds, upset stomaches, simple diarreha or constipation, and common non-migrane headaches instead of dealing with issues by resting and eating certain foods.

[Freiheit Reich]

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

In no way. Lrn2international law.

Ignore international law, what happens in the borders would be the US business, nobody else's.

[Wisconsin9]

This ignores the fact that you are outright disagreeing with the international court of human rights on the issue.

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

Literally no binding resolution can go through the UN without an American vote in favor, and we basically run NATO. Seriously, next time you're going to advocate something spiteful and absolutely pointless, do some damn research.

[Wisconsin9]

In no way. Lrn2international law.

Ignore international law, what happens in the borders would be the US business, nobody else's.

Yes, because fuck basic decency, amirite?

[Samozaryadnyastan]

This ignores the fact that you are outright disagreeing with the international court of human rights on the issue.

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

The human rights issue sounds great BUT does not address who will pay for these things. You have to steal from Peter to pay for Paul's medical care. Is this fair to Peter? Maybe Peter worked hard in school, never did drugs, works hard at work, and should enjoy his bread. Paul was a bully in high school. He used drugs and never studied. He dropped out if school. Paul likes to party hard and drink heavily. He has been fired for showing up to work drunk or not showing up at all. Paul is a bum and Peter works hard. Paul got liver disease from heavy drinking. He needs medical care. The govt. steals Peter's bread to pay for Paul's medical care.

Is this right? Does Paul the worthless bum deserve Peter's hard earned bread? Let charities pay if they wish, if not then let Paul die.

This is not possible.
The whole point of the Declaration of Human Rights is that they apply to all nations, whether UN member states or not (and the US should be setting a fucking example, being a permanent security council seat holder).

I find it rather telling that your opposition to state-funded healthcare is 'who will pay for it'?
Especially since you don't realise that it doesn't demean doctors, push them into any kind of 'slavery' or bullshit , the UK does decently well funding vital care through taxes and elective surgeries and such through the private sector.

[Wisconsin9]

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

The human rights issue sounds great BUT does not address who will pay for these things. You have to steal from Peter to pay for Paul's medical care. Is this fair to Peter? Maybe Peter worked hard in school, never did drugs, works hard at work, and should enjoy his bread. Paul was a bully in high school. He used drugs and never studied. He dropped out if school. Paul likes to party hard and drink heavily. He has been fired for showing up to work drunk or not showing up at all. Paul is a bum and Peter works hard. Paul got liver disease from heavy drinking. He needs medical care. The govt. steals Peter's bread to pay for Paul's medical care.

Is this right? Does Paul the worthless bum deserve Peter's hard earned bread? Let charities pay if they wish, if not then let Paul die.

This is not possible.
The whole point of the Declaration of Human Rights is that they apply to all nations, whether UN member states or not (and the US should be setting a fucking example, being a permanent security council seat holder).

I find it rather telling that your opposition to state-funded healthcare is 'who will pay for it'?
Especially since you don't realise that it doesn't demean doctors, push them into any kind of 'slavery' or bullshit , the UK does decently well funding vital care through taxes and elective surgeries and such through the private sector.

But-but-but taxes are theft!

[Samuraikoku]

Ignore international law, what happens in the borders would be the US business, nobody else's.

Why do you hate the U.S. so much?

[Freiheit Reich]

The US needs to pull out of those international agreements and become fully independent. The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. decrease the nation's sovereignty.

Literally no binding resolution can go through the UN without an American vote in favor, and we basically run NATO. Seriously, next time you're going to advocate something spiteful and absolutely pointless, do some damn research.

I believe I said we should PULL OUT of those organizations and declare ourselves free of international laws.

[Samuraikoku]

I believe I said we should PULL OUT of those organizations and declare ourselves free of international laws.

Again, why do you hate the U.S. so much?

[Freiheit Reich]

Privledge, agree with OP.

People will abuse things that are free. Look at public housing projects. You see vandalism and grafitti everywhere there. Instead of people living there being grateful, they often whine about how society is keeping them down (while having babies out of wedlock, smoking, drinking booze, and buying expensive sneakers like Adidas and Nike).

Healthcare costs are too high because of insurance and regulations. I think people should be able to be doctors with a 4 year degree and OJT. This will cause doctor's wages to drop. Lower nursing requirements as well, 1 year and OJT. Import more drugs from overseas (and medical personnel as well).

End Medicare and other govt. insurance programs.

Lowering costs will help many people out.

and fuck the rest, am I right. :S

Let charities take care of the rest. Don't force people to 'be their brothers' keepers'

[Wisconsin9]

Literally no binding resolution can go through the UN without an American vote in favor, and we basically run NATO. Seriously, next time you're going to advocate something spiteful and absolutely pointless, do some damn research.

I believe I said we should PULL OUT of those organizations and declare ourselves free of international laws.

... why?

[Samuraikoku]

... why?

I believe he doesn't know why the U.S. needs the UN.