Healthcare: Right or Privilege?

[Vitaphone Racing]

Which is my point. Natural rights don't exist. Society decides what rights it will recognize and protect.

And the UN, made up of the majority of nations on this planet, decided that health care was a right. Hence why it is in the UDHR.

That's super. Although it isn't like I argued against that.

[Samuraikoku]

Which is my point. Natural rights don't exist. Society decides what rights it will recognize and protect.

Did I mention the word "natural" in any of my posts here?

No, I didn't.

Edit: Before this post where I had to.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Which is my point. Natural rights don't exist. Society decides what rights it will recognize and protect.

Did I mention the word "natural" in any of my posts here?

No, I didn't.

I never said you did. I used your post as a precedent to state that natural rights didn't exist. There is nothing wrong with making a new point from something that somebody else said.

In other words, relax. This isn't really about you or anything you said.

[Esternial]

It's a privilege. Claiming that it is a right basically violates other people's right to economic self-determination and their property rights. Until you can come up with a magic healthcare machine that dispenses health without using any money, healthcare is a privilege that everyone are not entitled to.

I agree, let's get rid of all taxes.

[Samuraikoku]

Is plastic surgery, Botox, and sex change a right?

Do they maintain your right to life? No? Then they're not.

I would argue that sex change surgeries should be included in Article 25's standard of living. See it says "other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control". Certainly trans people's gender identity is beyond their control. Therefore they would have a right to sex change operations covered by healthcare.

Argentina understood this.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[Faolinn]

It is a divine right.I also think it is more logical to treat it as a right.If you want a purely Darwinian view, if you want the species to survive it is only logical to treat healthcare as such because wider availability thereof will increase the odds of survival.That line is not my personal viewpoint, but I figured it would speak to those who don't follow philosophical arguments for some reason.

[Varijnland]

NHS

Free healthcare. Right or privilege.

[Esternial]

Do they maintain your right to life? No? Then they're not.

I would argue that sex change surgeries should be included in Article 25's standard of living. See it says "other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control". Certainly trans people's gender identity is beyond their control.

Argentina understood this.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

I'm inclined to disagree. A sex change operation isn't as essential as most other treatments, and you'd just be draining money from the government if that were covered by public healthcare. A sex change is a very drastic change, and if it were covered by the state people might be more inclined to 'do it on a whim' rather than really consider doing it because they're paying for it themselves.

Be a little realistic here. Healthcare is a very expensive investment, throwing money away to sex change operations is a shitty idea when there are people who need liver transplants to live.

[Socialist States Owen]

Right. Certainly it should be so if the ability to own a firearm should be a 'right'.

[Esternial]

It is a divine right.I also think it is more logical to treat it as a right.If you want a purely Darwinian view, if you want the species to survive it is only logical to treat healthcare as such because wider availability thereof will increase the odds of survival.That line is not my personal viewpoint, but I figured it would speak to those who don't follow philosophical arguments for some reason.

What about "survival of the fittest"? Someone jumps off a roof, so following that viewpoint that man shouldn't be allowed to pass on his genes to introduce another unproductive member in our society.

[Chinese Regions]

Life is a right.

[Esternial]

Life is a right.

So you're anti-abortion, I assume?

[Enadail]

I would argue that sex change surgeries should be included in Article 25's standard of living. See it says "other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control". Certainly trans people's gender identity is beyond their control.

Argentina understood this.

I'm inclined to disagree. A sex change operation isn't as essential as most other treatments, and you'd just be draining money from the government if that were covered by public healthcare. A sex change is a very drastic change, and if it were covered by the state people might be more inclined to 'do it on a whim' rather than really consider doing it because they're paying for it themselves.

Be a little realistic here. Healthcare is a very expensive investment, throwing money away to sex change operations is a shitty idea when there are people who need liver transplants to live.

First, a sex change operation can be essential to the mental health of a patient who truly believes they were born into the wrong body. Secondly, no one gets a sex change "on a whim". It requires numerous psychological evaluations to even get a doctor to perform one.

Mental health is as important as physical health; I fail to see why a liver is more important than someone's sanity.

[Enadail]

It is a divine right.I also think it is more logical to treat it as a right.If you want a purely Darwinian view, if you want the species to survive it is only logical to treat healthcare as such because wider availability thereof will increase the odds of survival.That line is not my personal viewpoint, but I figured it would speak to those who don't follow philosophical arguments for some reason.

What about "survival of the fittest"? Someone jumps off a roof, so following that viewpoint that man shouldn't be allowed to pass on his genes to introduce another unproductive member in our society.

Evolution says nothing about "survival of the fittest".

[Chinese Regions]

Life is a right.

So you're anti-abortion, I assume?

Of all sentient beings, living beings. Foetuses are not sentient.

[Faolinn]

What about "survival of the fittest"? Someone jumps off a roof, so following that viewpoint that man shouldn't be allowed to pass on his genes to introduce another unproductive member in our society.

Evolution says nothing about "survival of the fittest".

Yes.It's more like survival of the best adapted.

[Chinese Regions]

It is a divine right.I also think it is more logical to treat it as a right.If you want a purely Darwinian view, if you want the species to survive it is only logical to treat healthcare as such because wider availability thereof will increase the odds of survival.That line is not my personal viewpoint, but I figured it would speak to those who don't follow philosophical arguments for some reason.

What about "survival of the fittest"? Someone jumps off a roof, so following that viewpoint that man shouldn't be allowed to pass on his genes to introduce another unproductive member in our society.

Well can you prove that was the result of faulty genes?
Instead of survival of the fittest, make everyone the fittest.

[Enadail]

Evolution says nothing about "survival of the fittest".

Yes.It's more like survival of the best adapted.

Not even that really; just that those with adaptions tend to be the ones that survive; sometimes organisms with useless adaptions survive, and those adaptions are passed down

[Oneracon]

I would argue that sex change surgeries should be included in Article 25's standard of living. See it says "other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control". Certainly trans people's gender identity is beyond their control.

Argentina understood this.

I'm inclined to disagree. A sex change operation isn't as essential as most other treatments, and you'd just be draining money from the government if that were covered by public healthcare. A sex change is a very drastic change, and if it were covered by the state people might be more inclined to 'do it on a whim' rather than really consider doing it because they're paying for it themselves.

Be a little realistic here. Healthcare is a very expensive investment, throwing money away to sex change operations is a shitty idea when there are people who need liver transplants to live.

There are physical health benefits to a liver transplant and mental health benefits to sex reassignment (which people don't get "on a whim", in any jurisdiction with universal health care there are extensive psychological consultations that need to be done before you get a referral for SRS)... not to mention that the issue with liver and other organ transplants isn't lack of money but lack of donors.

That, however, is an issue for another thread.

[Esternial]

I'm inclined to disagree. A sex change operation isn't as essential as most other treatments, and you'd just be draining money from the government if that were covered by public healthcare. A sex change is a very drastic change, and if it were covered by the state people might be more inclined to 'do it on a whim' rather than really consider doing it because they're paying for it themselves.

Be a little realistic here. Healthcare is a very expensive investment, throwing money away to sex change operations is a shitty idea when there are people who need liver transplants to live.

First, a sex change operation can be essential to the mental health of a patient who truly believes they were born into the wrong body. Secondly, no one gets a sex change "on a whim". It requires numerous psychological evaluations to even get a doctor to perform one.

Mental health is as important as physical health; I fail to see why a liver is more important than someone's sanity.

Every case is unique. I'm just afraid there will be some abuse. I would consider cases that save a person life to have a higher priority, but if there is enough control in terms of evaluations then I guess it could fall under public healthcare.

Instead of survival of the fittest, make everyone the fittest.

That's not possible. Our society doesn't work that way. This is the real world we're talking about.

[Esternial]

Yes.It's more like survival of the best adapted.

Not even that really; just that those with adaptions tend to be the ones that survive; sometimes organisms with useless adaptions survive, and those adaptions are passed down

Yes, but I'm talking about negative adaptations that get passed down in our society. Mind you, I don't have any issues with that, we have too many people already for it to matter. I was just curious about what he'd say.

[Wind in the Willows]

Deleted.

[Oneracon]

First, a sex change operation can be essential to the mental health of a patient who truly believes they were born into the wrong body. Secondly, no one gets a sex change "on a whim". It requires numerous psychological evaluations to even get a doctor to perform one.

Mental health is as important as physical health; I fail to see why a liver is more important than someone's sanity.

Every case is unique. I'm just afraid there will be some abuse. I would consider cases that save a person life to have a higher priority, but if there is enough control in terms of evaluations then I guess it could fall under public healthcare.

That's actually the very basis of universal health care. People who have more urgent needs get to go first.

I'm not going to die because my tonsils are causing me to have sleep apnea, so people with more urgent surgeries went first.

[Samuraikoku]

I would argue that sex change surgeries should be included in Article 25's standard of living. See it says "other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control". Certainly trans people's gender identity is beyond their control.

Argentina understood this.

I'm inclined to disagree. A sex change operation isn't as essential as most other treatments, and you'd just be draining money from the government if that were covered by public healthcare. A sex change is a very drastic change, and if it were covered by the state people might be more inclined to 'do it on a whim' rather than really consider doing it because they're paying for it themselves.

Be a little realistic here. Healthcare is a very expensive investment, throwing money away to sex change operations is a shitty idea when there are people who need liver transplants to live.

Article says otherwise.

[Frazers]

Healthcare as a right is pretty handy for the economy so i'll go for that. I don't really give a shit about the people who wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise as people really are accountable for their own mistakes and lack of drive to obtain better employment.