Does unemployment insurance (UI) incentivise unemployment?

[Neo Art]

This is a typical example of the way progressives conduct business.

They call it politics, but free and peaceful people call it extortion.

For example, progressive can't get what they want in a free, competitive, voluntary and peaceful society so.....

they form a duopoly with govt. to coercive others to bend to their will.

In this case, politicians buy votes from lower income voters in a quid pro quo for preferential labor regulations and UI handouts taken from taxpayers (libertarian and conservative voters). Essentially, this is tyranny of the majority -- you buy votes for handouts gained at the point of a gun.

The problem is when this destructive scheme disincentivises merit and incentivises sloth -- thereby creating a dysfunctional society in economic decline.

Sound familiar?

To quote Maggie, "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money"

oddly enough I would much rather live in a country where votes are "bought" by making sure that we have a strong prosperous middle class than a country were votes are "bought" by making sure that the 1% pay low taxes.

I mean, it's kinda like the "you didn't build that" moment, isn't it? If you're going to endlessly harp on something the president said, shouldn't you first be sure your audience doesn't agree with him?

I mean his whole whine is how the working class majority is using the democratic system to prevent being taken advantage of by the powerful minority.

......good.

Let's have more of that.

[The Black Forrest]

Having used it under the great god Reagan; I can tell you without question NO!

It barely covers anything.

[Choronzon]

oddly enough I would much rather live in a country where votes are "bought" by making sure that we have a strong prosperous middle class than a country were votes are "bought" by making sure that the 1% pay low taxes.

I mean, it's kinda like the "you didn't build that" moment, isn't it? If you're going to endlessly harp on something the president said, shouldn't you first be sure your audience doesn't agree with him?

I mean his whole whine is how the working class majority is using the democratic system to prevent being taken advantage of by the powerful minority.

......good.

Let's have more of that.

but muh freedom

[Neo Art]

I mean, it's kinda like the "you didn't build that" moment, isn't it? If you're going to endlessly harp on something the president said, shouldn't you first be sure your audience doesn't agree with him?

I mean his whole whine is how the working class majority is using the democratic system to prevent being taken advantage of by the powerful minority.

......good.

Let's have more of that.

but muh freedom

What's the point? I'm saying that people can't control everything, but what they can control they should. If Bob owns a business, Bob does not get to decide govt. budgets, he get's to decide what happens at Bob's business.

If Bob wants to open his business in the wildnerness, produce his entire supply and distribution networks solely on his property, and get paid in goats and chickens and shiny rocks, then fine, Bob can do what he wants, free of governmental intervention.

But if Bob wants to to ensure that the people who build his storefront comply with safety regulations, if Bob wants to have his heat, hot water, electricity and natural gas lines hooked up to public utilities, if Bob wants his supplies to also meet safety standards, if Bob wants those supplies delivered to his store on public roads, if Bob wants to have his contracts with his supplies, distributors, and associates supported by the court system, if Bob wants to have his store's reputation protected by intellectual property laws, if Bob wants to have his property protected against fire, theft and natural disasters by the police and fire departments, if Bob wants to conduct business with governmentally backed and supported legal tender, then Bob can suck it the fuck up.

[SaintB]

To quote Maggie, "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money"

You and your ilk wouldn't know socialism if it resided in your back left pants pocket.

[SaintB]

Its either greed, indifference, or a lack of understanding of how economies work.

"Or"?

I triid to give the benefit of a doubt.

[Cerod]

no /thread

[Ashmoria]

oddly enough I would much rather live in a country where votes are "bought" by making sure that we have a strong prosperous middle class than a country were votes are "bought" by making sure that the 1% pay low taxes.

I mean, it's kinda like the "you didn't build that" moment, isn't it? If you're going to endlessly harp on something the president said, shouldn't you first be sure your audience doesn't agree with him?

I mean his whole whine is how the working class majority is using the democratic system to prevent being taken advantage of by the powerful minority.

......good.

Let's have more of that.

American socialism has been an amazing success since FDR got it going. why would we stop it now?

[The Black Forrest]

To quote Maggie, "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money"

You and your ilk wouldn't know socialism if it resided in your back left pants pocket.

His ilk have been depressed since the Soviets folded.

They really don't have bogeyman to scare the simple people anymore.

They keep trying with socialism but it doesn't have the effect of the dreaded commie.

So they manufactured the "fiscal cliff" to pad it more.....

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

When Brits call Thatcher "Britain's Reagan" it's not a compliment.

Margaret Thatcher, with all due respect, was a fucking nut.

No respect due to that...abomination.

[Neo Art]

I mean, it's kinda like the "you didn't build that" moment, isn't it? If you're going to endlessly harp on something the president said, shouldn't you first be sure your audience doesn't agree with him?

I mean his whole whine is how the working class majority is using the democratic system to prevent being taken advantage of by the powerful minority.

......good.

Let's have more of that.

American socialism has been an amazing success since FDR got it going. why would we stop it now?

I wonder if the right wing doesn't take flu shots because flu shots have some of the virus inside it.

The fact is, a little bit of targeted socialism is the only thing that kept a full on revolt in this country from happening. What's amazing is that all the right wing who talk about "human nature", how it's just "human nature" that if you pay someone to sit home they won't find a job, forget the most single, true part of human nature.

If someone gets hungry enough, if their family gets hungry enough, if they get desperate enough, they WILL do something about it. Including going down to the home of the local wealthy "job creator" and leaving his corpse strung up in a tree.

[Cannot think of a name]

Read that again. That's right. The OP has presented us with a 'smoking gun' study to demonstrate to us that Unemployment Insurance functions as intended. That unemployment is kept from severely suppressing wages.

Hi there Page Two. I'm Page One. Can we be friends?

I just woke up, when I started you were all just "No", my browser has been on all night so things were going slow, and *$*@&#$ ninjas.

One day...one day you'll feel compelled to comment on the media because I made a snarky one word post and you figured the coast was clear, and then I'll ninja the fuck out of you.

Also, you know full well that this nugget will have to be repeated every page as people come in and pretend it's never been said.

So there.

[Free Tristania]

No, every single person I've talked too who has been on Employment insurance (and I have talked to many, this being Newfoundland) have universally said it was an extremely shitty thing and hated being out of work and relying on it.

Exactly. There is nothing as socially degrading as being unemployed and unemployment benefits merely keep you alive and if anything the pure social stigma that rests on unemployment is, in my experience, enough to drive people to work.

Besides: I believe that those cause unemployment by closing down their businesses and moving them abroad should be punished by denying any future access to the market.

[Radiatia]

What is unemployment insurance?

Is that when couples kill themselves because their lives are fucking miserable because benefits aren't "generous" enough? Is it just a fancy way of saying benefits?

If I recall correctly - I'm no expert on the subject - but my understanding is that rather than fund benefits through general taxation, in the US they fund them through a direct tax on employers.

Personally, I can sort of see the logic in Obamacult's argument thus far, without condoning or condemning, although I'm not an expert on the subject and haven't had time to delve too deeply into it. I do believe that there should be unemployment benefits, I'm a little bit sceptical as to the methods the US uses to raise the money for them.

[The Truth and Light]

American socialism has been an amazing success since FDR got it going. why would we stop it now?

I wonder if the right wing doesn't take flu shots because flu shots have some of the virus inside it.

The fact is, a little bit of targeted socialism is the only thing that kept a full on revolt in this company from happening. What's amazing is that all the right wing who talk about "human nature", how it's just "human nature" that if you pay someone to sit home they won't find a job, forget the most single, true part of human nature.

If someone gets hungry enough, if their family gets hungry enough, if they get desperate enough, they WILL do something about it. Including going down to the home of the local wealthy "job creator" and leaving his corpse strung up in a tree.

Oh my god. Everything you say is brilliant.

[Neo Art]

Hi there Page Two. I'm Page One. Can we be friends?

I just woke up, when I started you were all just "No", my browser has been on all night so things were going slow, and *$*@&#$ ninjas.

One day...one day you'll feel compelled to comment on the media because I made a snarky one word post and you figured the coast was clear, and then I'll ninja the fuck out of you.

Also, you know full well that this nugget will have to be repeated every page as people come in and pretend it's never been said.

So there.

I'm rocking the East Coast advantage right now, it's ok. I'm sure I'll wake up one morning to find my brilliant reply posted while I slept.

[The Black Forrest]

American socialism has been an amazing success since FDR got it going. why would we stop it now?

I wonder if the right wing doesn't take flu shots because flu shots have some of the virus inside it.

The fact is, a little bit of targeted socialism is the only thing that kept a full on revolt in this company from happening. What's amazing is that all the right wing who talk about "human nature", how it's just "human nature" that if you pay someone to sit home they won't find a job, forget the most single, true part of human nature.

If someone gets hungry enough, if their family gets hungry enough, if they get desperate enough, they WILL do something about it. Including going down to the home of the local wealthy "job creator" and leaving his corpse strung up in a tree.

Indeed. You can use a little money to ease their suffering or you can take your savings and spend it on security forces.

[Ashmoria]

Hi there Page Two. I'm Page One. Can we be friends?

I just woke up, when I started you were all just "No", my browser has been on all night so things were going slow, and *$*@&#$ ninjas.

One day...one day you'll feel compelled to comment on the media because I made a snarky one word post and you figured the coast was clear, and then I'll ninja the fuck out of you.

Also, you know full well that this nugget will have to be repeated every page as people come in and pretend it's never been said.

So there.

oh no

you are a great addition to the "no". someone has to check out the "proof" provided by the OP.

better you than me.

it was a great post. the only sad thing is that our dear OP will use them again and again regardless of how many times they are shown to be poorly chosen.

[Vetalia]

Indeed. You can use a little money to ease their suffering or you can take your savings and spend it on security forces.

Or a helicopter to avoid the congested and dangerous surface streets as in Sao Paulo...I wouldn't be surprised if the wealthy are spending considerably more to keep themselves safe from the byproducts of a dangerously unequal society than it would cost them in taxes to resolve that inequality.

[Cannot think of a name]

I just woke up, when I started you were all just "No", my browser has been on all night so things were going slow, and *$*@&#$ ninjas.

One day...one day you'll feel compelled to comment on the media because I made a snarky one word post and you figured the coast was clear, and then I'll ninja the fuck out of you.

Also, you know full well that this nugget will have to be repeated every page as people come in and pretend it's never been said.

So there.

oh no

you are a great addition to the "no". someone has to check out the "proof" provided by the OP.

better you than me.

it was a great post. the only sad thing is that our dear OP will use them again and again regardless of how many times they are shown to be poorly chosen.

Well, I mean, the real knife in the chest was the guy who found one of the authors pulling the Annie Hall, "You know nothing of me or my work." Can't get any better than that.

[Ceannairceach]

No, it doesn't. Unemployment pay is shit compared to work pay, and it doesn't last forever.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

I wonder if the right wing doesn't take flu shots because flu shots have some of the virus inside it.

The fact is, a little bit of targeted socialism is the only thing that kept a full on revolt in this company from happening. What's amazing is that all the right wing who talk about "human nature", how it's just "human nature" that if you pay someone to sit home they won't find a job, forget the most single, true part of human nature.

If someone gets hungry enough, if their family gets hungry enough, if they get desperate enough, they WILL do something about it. Including going down to the home of the local wealthy "job creator" and leaving his corpse strung up in a tree.

Indeed. You can use a little money to ease their suffering or you can take your savings and spend it on security forces.

That's the thing really...by providing for those less fortunate through education, jobs, health care and the like you are probably doing more in terms of providing security for your society than any amount of Homeland Security/TSA bollocks. In fact the more you spend on stuff that not only takes away from peoples well being but also restricts peoples movement or freedom of expression or even just giving rise to anxiety that one is not exactly "liked" by those security forces...well I can imagine that in the long term society will suffer. Not the 1% of course.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

To quote Maggie, "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money"

I don't think either you or her know what that word means.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

To quote Maggie, "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money"

I don't think either you or her know what that word means.

Well one could say that Monetarism is great until you run out of tax revenue from the gas fields in the North Sea...somehow I suspect my comment is more to the point that the Grantham Bloodsucker.

[Obamacult]

The empirical research:

data

Experience has taught me that I cannot expect a reciprocal level of fair brokerage to warrant going through the sources in detail in this particular instance, but I will give an over view of the reading so far.

First of all is to acknowledge the smoke screen. Three of these are studies and equal over 200 to 300 page studies. I am not reading that much and I suspect neither has the OP. What is expected is that we read the abstract and take it at face value as the OP has or be accused of being 'afraid of the facts.' While not being a particular honest tactic, it is effective on open forums such as these. I in fact expect to be lambasted for even suggesting such as a way to dodge facts.

From there the argument is nothing more than 'Oh yeah?' 'Yeah!'. Rather than participate, search for Rabbit Seasonings, at least that one is funny.

The last two or three, I lost a little track, are actually self referential. That is, the quoted relevant part deal with the same study that was so delightfully included because of the author being an Obama and Clinton appointee.

But the real delight is that the study does not actually suggest the OP's premise, the underlying one anyway. What it suggests, which will become a theme, is that unemployment is optimal just where it is. From the OPs sources we learn that unemployment insurance is about half of the wages the person was receiving, and the OP's prize study shows that this is, in fact, optimal. The sticking point, the smoking gun that the OP thinks he's found is that UI allows people to hold out for jobs closer to the wage they left.

Let's say that again: Unemployment insurance allows people to hold out for a wage closer to the one they left.

Read that again. That's right. The OP has presented us with a 'smoking gun' study to demonstrate to us that Unemployment Insurance functions as intended. That unemployment is kept from severely suppressing wages.

Wow. Well, we must act immediately on this entirely intended consequence. What kind of monster would want that?

The source that doesn't circle around to these studies that show that unemployment insurance does what it's supposed to is one that presents a fantasy case instead:

Consider, for example, an unemployed person who is accustomed to making $15.00 an hour. On unemployment insurance this person receives about 55 percent of normal earnings, or $8.25 per lost work hour. If that person is in a 15 percent federal tax bracket and a 3 percent state tax bracket, he or she pays $1.49 in taxes per hour not worked and nets $6.76 per hour after taxes as compensation for not working. If that person took a job that paid $15.00 per hour, governments would take 18 percent for income taxes and 7.65 percent for Social Security taxes, netting him or her $11.15 per hour of work. Comparing the two payments, this person may decide that an hour of leisure is worth more than the extra $4.39 the job would pay. If so, this means that the unemployment insurance raises the person’s reservation wage to above $15.00 per hour.

This apparently assumes that everyone lives at 45% of their means and when provided with a few months of that wage, well...party time.

Unlike the studies included, this is just the reasoning the author comes up with. You know, like someone trying to guess why Bronies like MLP or rabid Windows users prescribing motives to Apple users.

And about as useful.

So, thank you OP, for confirming that UI is an essential program that is apparently operated at an optimal level.

Economic reality exposes and debunks your progressive rant.

For example, when labor compensation is based on how many special interest votes you bring to the table the first Tuesday in November -- economic reality and thus economic sustainability, growth and living standards take a back seat.

You can't legislate pay without breeding corruption and cronyism in politics.

Essentially what you advocate is a govt. that can and will be bought for political favors -- in this case, a quid pro quo of votes for plunder or theft at the point of a gun.

Eventually, this kind of criminal enterprise either leaves its citizens destitute or citizens simply leave for more rational and moral states.

Moreover, the most effective social tool known to mankind is a private sector job.

The most effective safety net known to mankind has been and always will be the family.

Yet disturbingly, progressives seek to undermine both under the illusion that their self-serving politically corrupt policies can deliver the poor from poverty.

A look at the recent record of progressive dogma provides a more accurate answer to this myth:

record debt increases,
anemic growth rate,
wage stagnation,
increased income inequality,
long term unemployment at decade high levels,
poverty at decade high levels,
food stamps at record levels,
welfare recipients at record levels,
surging education costs,
surging energy costs,
surging food costs,
high wage jobs replaced with low wage jobs,
increase in Americans rejecting citizenship,
local and state govt. cutting jobs and services,
labor participation rate at decade low levels.

the list goes on and on.......