Same-Sex Marriage: Point of View

[CVT Temp]

Why are we still arguing about what the big book of multiple choice says?

[The Realm of God]

I will not go as far as some and apply pejoratives to your beliefs. However you will need to consider the fact that biblical fundamentalism is the primary cause of misery for the LGBTQ community. As you seem to be deeply concerned with matters of personal morality I will tell you that I disagree with your views, however it seems that you also care about the well being of people as well. Therefore I shall give you two pieces of advice and two theological theories and statements to procrastinate on. Firstly the country you reside in is a secular state, therefore we must discount religion in matters of public governance, secondly is to take the limitation on gay marriage and apply it to yourself, how would you feel if you were not allowed to marry someone who you loved and wanted to spend your life with, is that person's happiness unimportant to you?

Theologically you will find no prohibition against same sex marriage (however to be intellectually honest I have to admit that there is criticism of gay sex) nowhere is marriage defined in the way social conservatives describe it. You also have to consider that the bible is not the be all and end all of Christianity, I encourage you to read some well thought out theological tracts and to explore the world outside of sola scriptura. Finally consider that Jesus brought a message of forgivness and tolerance, do not be lead down the path of hate and accidentaly oppress people in the name of morality "he who is without sin cast the first stone."

With Sincerity.

RoG.

Within the New Testament? 1 Corinthians 6:1-20 (sorry, stated 12-20 earlier).

Yet still, I understand that somewhat. Not nearly as much as a homosexual myself, but I understand, to an extent. I don't want to offend someone, or hurt someone, or prevent someone from loving their partner. But at the same time... what if I'm right, and they're wrong? Is it just for me to say 'OK, go ahead', only to know in the end, when they die, they go to hell? Or what if you're right? What if I'm crying 'Lord, Lord' and not really know what God's trying to do here?

It's... not simply a matter of morality. It's a matter of I care about my friend. I care that he is being made fun of for being homosexual, and being avoided by some of my friends. I care that, according to what I believe, and what I have read, my friend is committing a sin every time he even thinks of a man in that way. I care that, if he doesn't come to know the Lord, he will have eternal damnation.

Quite frankly, that scares me. It scares me more than my car crash, where someone almost died. It scares me more than knowing my Dad was flying home from Boston during 9/11. It scares me more than knowing a tornado passed through my hometown, and 'curved' around our property line. It keeps me up at night.

And you know the worst part? No matter who is right, someone's wrong. If I'm right, then homosexuals are sinning day in and day out, and they go to hell unless they come to know the Lord. If you're right, millions upon millions of Christians are putting people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of God in the wrong light, causing them to stumble, and are thus condemned to hell. And if the atheists are right - well, we all die in the end anyways. Eventually this planet will be engulfed by the sun and this galaxy will collide with another, and 50 billion years or so or whatever it was in the future, it doesn't matter.

God, this is depressing.

Hell, oh they only taught you St Augustine in your Sunday School didn't they. I was an atheist growing up so I never went to Sunday school but really should read up on the apocastatsis. In Eastern Orthodoxy, all people who are not unrepentantly evil will one day ascend to heaven. This is because God is infinitly merciful and Jesus said he would 'gather everyone to him.'This is called Origenist theology

Here are some passages Orthodox Christians use to promote this view.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

[Dooom35796821595]

Your religion is not my problem. My sexuality is not your business.

Exactly. So then why should the Church have to marry you? If it's outside the Church, then we don't have to condone it.

the church is still subject to the law, law says its legal and refusal could be illegal in itself.
besides, have you read the bible? one half contradicts the other.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Exactly. So then why should the Church have to marry you? If it's outside the Church, then we don't have to condone it.

the church is still subject to the law, law says its legal and refusal could be illegal in itself.
besides, have you read the bible? one half contradicts the other.

Refusal would not be illegal. Churches have never, ever been forced to marry any two people whatsoever by the U.S. government. Never. Not at any point that I'm aware of in the entire history of our nation, no matter what the reasons given may have been. To this day, there are churches that will refuse to marry interracial couples, and the U.S. government will not force them to do so.

[New Chalcedon]

the church is still subject to the law, law says its legal and refusal could be illegal in itself.
besides, have you read the bible? one half contradicts the other.

Refusal would not be illegal. Churches have never, ever been forced to marry any two people whatsoever by the U.S. government. Never. Not at any point that I'm aware of in the entire history of our nation, no matter what the reasons given may have been. To this day, there are churches that will refuse to marry interracial couples, and the U.S. government will not force them to do so.

Oh, leave him be. He's having far too much fun being persecuted to deal with the plebian reality that no Christian church in the USA has ever been forced to go against its conscience.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Refusal would not be illegal. Churches have never, ever been forced to marry any two people whatsoever by the U.S. government. Never. Not at any point that I'm aware of in the entire history of our nation, no matter what the reasons given may have been. To this day, there are churches that will refuse to marry interracial couples, and the U.S. government will not force them to do so.

Oh, leave him be. He's having far too much fun being persecuted to deal with the plebian reality that no Christian church in the USA has ever been forced to go against its conscience.

Argh. If he really wants to be a martyr that badly, lumber and nails are cheap.

[Distruzio]

It's the other way around, lad

So man created God, therefore the deeds of God are actually the deeds of man. This means that God evolves.

Actually, it would mean that our understanding of God evolves and changes. Even if Man created God.

[Vredlandia]

Isn't "to lay with a man as you would with a man, or lay with a woman as you would with a woman" out of context? I'm not sure, but I think I saw this statement a while ago and someone proved it to be out of context.

Well, but regarding the topic: I'm gay myself and see no reason not to allow same sex marriages. If one loves eachother one should have the right to marry. That simple.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

[Grenartia]

I will not go as far as some and apply pejoratives to your beliefs. However you will need to consider the fact that biblical fundamentalism is the primary cause of misery for the LGBTQ community. As you seem to be deeply concerned with matters of personal morality I will tell you that I disagree with your views, however it seems that you also care about the well being of people as well. Therefore I shall give you two pieces of advice and two theological theories and statements to procrastinate on. Firstly the country you reside in is a secular state, therefore we must discount religion in matters of public governance, secondly is to take the limitation on gay marriage and apply it to yourself, how would you feel if you were not allowed to marry someone who you loved and wanted to spend your life with, is that person's happiness unimportant to you?

Theologically you will find no prohibition against same sex marriage (however to be intellectually honest I have to admit that there is criticism of gay sex) nowhere is marriage defined in the way social conservatives describe it. You also have to consider that the bible is not the be all and end all of Christianity, I encourage you to read some well thought out theological tracts and to explore the world outside of sola scriptura. Finally consider that Jesus brought a message of forgivness and tolerance, do not be lead down the path of hate and accidentaly oppress people in the name of morality "he who is without sin cast the first stone."

With Sincerity.

RoG.

Within the New Testament? 1 Corinthians 6:1-20 (sorry, stated 12-20 earlier).

Yet still, I understand that somewhat. Not nearly as much as a homosexual myself, but I understand, to an extent. I don't want to offend someone, or hurt someone, or prevent someone from loving their partner. But at the same time... what if I'm right, and they're wrong? Is it just for me to say 'OK, go ahead', only to know in the end, when they die, they go to hell? Or what if you're right? What if I'm crying 'Lord, Lord' and not really know what God's trying to do here?

It's... not simply a matter of morality. It's a matter of I care about my friend. I care that he is being made fun of for being homosexual, and being avoided by some of my friends. I care that, according to what I believe, and what I have read, my friend is committing a sin every time he even thinks of a man in that way. I care that, if he doesn't come to know the Lord, he will have eternal damnation.

Quite frankly, that scares me. It scares me more than my car crash, where someone almost died. It scares me more than knowing my Dad was flying home from Boston during 9/11. It scares me more than knowing a tornado passed through my hometown, and 'curved' around our property line. It keeps me up at night.

And you know the worst part? No matter who is right, someone's wrong. If I'm right, then homosexuals are sinning day in and day out, and they go to hell unless they come to know the Lord. If you're right, millions upon millions of Christians are putting people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of God in the wrong light, causing them to stumble, and are thus condemned to hell. And if the atheists are right - well, we all die in the end anyways. Eventually this planet will be engulfed by the sun and this galaxy will collide with another, and 50 billion years or so or whatever it was in the future, it doesn't matter.

God, this is depressing.

Of course, the only option that is consistent with the known facts of homosexuality, and the theology of a merciful, loving God is that "millions upon millions of Christians are putting people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of God in the wrong light". Obviously, a God that creates somebody with an attraction to the same gender as themselves, and then arbitrarily declares that attraction (which does no inherent harm to anybody) to be a sin of cannot be considered merciful or loving by any sane definition. Such a God would be a colossal dick who should be opposed at every turn (it is also because of this logic that I cannot reconcile my Christian beliefs with a permanent Hell).

[Essos]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

What's inherently wrong with prostitution?

Also, tangent, I dislike applying phobia to hate of gays. We don't call racism against blacks negrophobia, lets call it what it is. Hate, not fear.

[Lesbia]

You do not have the right to force your religion on others.

Marriage is a union between any two people, regardless of gender or sexuality.

> Says one cannot "force" religion on another
> "Forces" opinion on another

[The Steel Magnolia]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

What's inherently wrong with prostitution?

Also, tangent, I dislike applying phobia to hate of gays. We don't call racism against blacks negrophobia, lets call it what it is. Hate, not fear.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with prostitution, so long it is consensual and only filled with adults.

I'm personally friends with people who went into the sex trade industry at 13. Others, at 12 or 11 precisely because of (specifically anti-trans) bigotry.

And okay, fine, if you want to have a semantic argument that's at this point in time irrelevant to how the majority of the population uses the word.

[Grenartia]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

The point of gay marriage, aside from the obvious points of equality that I'm sure you are already aware, is that it makes us more easy to identify with. And therefore more likely for people to change negative views.

[Zweite Alaje]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

What's inherently wrong with prostitution?

Also, tangent, I dislike applying phobia to hate of gays. We don't call racism against blacks negrophobia, lets call it what it is. Hate, not fear.

Negrophobia?!?!

Anyway, prostitution is a huge problem. It is often connected to increases in STDs and substance abuse.

[Christian Democrats]

I oppose same-sex marriage because men and women complement each other, and the law ought to reflect that. I oppose polygamy because an individual ought to devote his or her full attention to a single spouse and because our population is half male and half female. In short, marriage is a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

[Essos]

What's inherently wrong with prostitution?

Also, tangent, I dislike applying phobia to hate of gays. We don't call racism against blacks negrophobia, lets call it what it is. Hate, not fear.

Negrophobia?!?!

Anyway, prostitution is a huge problem. It is often connected to increases in STDs and substance abuse.

Prostitution, selling sex for money, is not inherently a bad thing. Criminal prostitution, where sex workers are villified and treated like shit or subhumans, is bad.

Prostitution is linked to those things because it is so heavily stigmatized by society.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Gay marriage is great and doesn't do shit for LGBT people who really need help.

And I can very, very easily see people saying "You can get married now, what more do you want?" when there are countless issues still at hand. Homelessness, employment, health care, widespread discrimination and societal oppression, increased risks of suicide, prostitution, alcoholism, drug abuse. Homophobia and transphobia is widespread, and must be dealt with.

The point of gay marriage, aside from the obvious points of equality that I'm sure you are already aware, is that it makes us more easy to identify with. And therefore more likely for people to change negative views.

Obviously I support gay marriage. I'm gay. I'd like to marry my partner some day.

I also think that, while it's important, it's also a distraction from many of the issues.

Recently. Maryland, which voted for marriage equality, killed off a bill that would have given trans* folk the same rights as gays.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/03/1 ... otections/

One of the Democrats who voted against the protections was Sen. Norman Stone, who in 1967 voted to maintain the state’s ban on interracial marriage and who opposed same-sex marriage in 2012. Another was Sen. James Brochin, who was actually convinced to vote for marriage equality because of how “appalling” opponents’ testimony was. Apparently when the Family Research Council’s Peter Sprigg testified that trans people are “suffering” from a “delusion” and require therapy instead of protections, it just wasn’t appalling enough.

Gay marriage is a distraction. The T is largely ignored in GBLT spaces. I can't tell how many times I've been in a queer space and I've been the token trans* person, or how many times queer activist groups have shafted trans* people in favour of cis white gay dudes (this is also why I dislike pride parades, and also the HRC). For example, in NY, activism pushed hard for gay marriage - ignoring the fact that the initial focus was on passing GENDA, aka the Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act, which would have provided things like housing or job discrimination protection for transgender persons.

So yes. I think gay marriage is a fucking distraction.

[Grenartia]

You do not have the right to force your religion on others.

Marriage is a union between any two people, regardless of gender or sexuality.

> Says one cannot "force" religion on another
> "Forces" opinion on another

There's a difference. Anti-SSM activists are inherently forcing their views down the throats of every same-sex couple who wishes to marry.

On the other hand, SSM shoves NOTHING down the throats of ANYBODY. If you have an objection to same-sex marriage, you're in luck, because NOBODY'S forcing you to get one. If you're a member of the clergy, and you have an objection to performing same-sex marriages, again, you're in luck, because NOBODY'S forcing you to perform them.

[Essos]

I oppose same-sex marriage because men and women complement each other, and the law ought to reflect that. I oppose polygamy because an individual ought to devote his or her full attention to a single spouse and because our population is half male and half female. In short, marriage is a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

Why? And source your reasoning.

Why? And source your reasoning.

You are incorrect on this point. Mena and women are not 1:1 ratio. Please try again.

[Tlaceceyaya]

I oppose same-sex marriage because men and women complement each other, and the law ought to reflect that. I oppose polygamy because an individual ought to devote his or her full attention to a single spouse and because our population is half male and half female. In short, marriage is a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

Some men complement men, and some women complement women.
Why oppose them getting hospital visitation rights for the people they love?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I oppose same-sex marriage because men and women complement each other, and the law ought to reflect that. I oppose polygamy because an individual ought to devote his or her full attention to a single spouse and because our population is half male and half female. In short, marriage is a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

Yes we know you hate freedom.

[Maurepas]

The South beat you to it, and beat you to being wrong about it as well.

Separate-but-equal is anything but equal. Marriage is marriage, and I, nor does the Constitution, care about your religious beliefs with regard to it.

[Zweite Alaje]

Negrophobia?!?!

Anyway, prostitution is a huge problem. It is often connected to increases in STDs and substance abuse.

Prostitution, selling sex for money, is not inherently a bad thing. Criminal prostitution, where sex workers are villified and treated like shit or subhumans, is bad.

Prostitution is linked to those things because it is so heavily stigmatized by society.

Eh, I don't see how prostitution a can be justified by a moral civilization. It is unclean.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Prostitution, selling sex for money, is not inherently a bad thing. Criminal prostitution, where sex workers are villified and treated like shit or subhumans, is bad.

Prostitution is linked to those things because it is so heavily stigmatized by society.

Eh, I don't see how prostitution a can be justified by a moral civilization. It is unclean.

Morality is of course relative however.