Your transition from liberalism to conservatism

[Soldati Senza Confini]

They don't use monopoly money in England. Continental Europe, the Netherlands, Zuid-Holland, urban area.

In all seriousness, I'm going to go google this now, it sounds like paradise.

Those who want to get ahead can get ahead because they're not competing with people who are desperately clamouring for work they don't want... what a joy!

Well, the Netherlands has always been a bit of an eccentric nation in Europe

[Durvya]

From liberal to conservative. This will never happen

[Quintium]

They get 91 euros a month per child, and you think this is an income source? Wait, you said "up to" so, what's the average? Holy shit you must have really low cost of living.

Again, that's in addition to regular benefits. And those alone can stack up to well above minimum wage, which in this country means 'enough to feed a family of four with'.

[Chinese Regions]

Left-Right is economics

[Khadgar]

Where you live sounds wonderful. I think I'm moving there.

Did I mention the tax rates? If you decide to work or study something useful, you'll give away much more than half of your income in taxes one way or another. If you own a home, you're punished for that with some extra local taxes that can be several hundreds a year, as well as 'sewer access taxes' and taxes on energy and probably the highest fuel tax in the world, and a massive vehicle tax, and taxes on companies that are eventually pushed onto consumers and make this place hideously expensive to buy anything. We're pretty much the only country that has the worst of both worlds - a cruel income tax and a cruel tax on everything you buy.

Those who want to get ahead can get ahead because they're not competing with people who are desperately clamouring for work they don't want... what a joy!

Yeah, there you go. If you want to work, you'll be the one complaining.

Hm, Turkey has the highest fuel tax I can find, but they don't use the Euro. Norway maybe?

[Divair]

Where you live sounds wonderful. I think I'm moving there.

Did I mention the tax rates? If you decide to work or study something useful, you'll give away much more than half of your income in taxes one way or another. If you own a home, you're punished for that with some extra local taxes that can be several hundreds a year, as well as 'sewer access taxes' and taxes on energy and probably the highest fuel tax in the world, and a massive vehicle tax, and taxes on companies that are eventually pushed onto consumers and make this place hideously expensive to buy anything. We're pretty much the only country that has the worst of both worlds - a cruel income tax and a cruel tax on everything you buy.

Those who want to get ahead can get ahead because they're not competing with people who are desperately clamouring for work they don't want... what a joy!

Yeah, there you go. If you want to work, you'll be the one complaining.

Maximum taxes are 52%. If you earn 55,000 Euros a year.



That's not bad at all.

[Chinese Regions]

First off. I want to know how Mr. OP here defines Liberalism.

I define it through European and Classical Liberalism.

Sorry I forget a lot of people here aren't North American. I mean collectivist leanings. Generally the way "liberal" is used in US politics.

I'm certain "Liberal" is both left leaning and supporting social freedom USA not solely one or the other.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Did I mention the tax rates? If you decide to work or study something useful, you'll give away much more than half of your income in taxes one way or another. If you own a home, you're punished for that with some extra local taxes that can be several hundreds a year, as well as 'sewer access taxes' and taxes on energy and probably the highest fuel tax in the world, and a massive vehicle tax, and taxes on companies that are eventually pushed onto consumers and make this place hideously expensive to buy anything. We're pretty much the only country that has the worst of both worlds - a cruel income tax and a cruel tax on everything you buy.

"The brackets are now 2.35%, 10.85%, 42%, and 52%."

"These two categories [food/essentials and non-food/non-essentials] have rates of 6% and 21%, respectively."

"Possessions like savings, shares, houses etc. over € 20,315. are assumed to have an annual 4% yield which is taxed at 30%, regardless of the actual annual yield achieved. Things like furniture, cars etc. are excluded."

"20.0% for the first € 275,000 and above that a corporate tax rate of 25.5% (determined in December 2008 for the tax year 2008 and may be the same rates in 2009 and 2010) 20.0% for the first € 200,000" - Corporate Taxes

And well, the property taxes are dependent upon area in the Netherlands, so yea I don't know how much is in your respective district.

These are just quick figures I found googling

[Divair]

Did I mention the tax rates? If you decide to work or study something useful, you'll give away much more than half of your income in taxes one way or another. If you own a home, you're punished for that with some extra local taxes that can be several hundreds a year, as well as 'sewer access taxes' and taxes on energy and probably the highest fuel tax in the world, and a massive vehicle tax, and taxes on companies that are eventually pushed onto consumers and make this place hideously expensive to buy anything. We're pretty much the only country that has the worst of both worlds - a cruel income tax and a cruel tax on everything you buy.

The brackets are now 2.35%, 10.85%, 42%, and 52%.

These two categories [food/essentials and non-food/non-essentials] have rates of 6% and 21%, respectively.

Possessions like savings, shares, houses etc. over € 20,315. are assumed to have an annual 4% yield which is taxed at 30%, regardless of the actual annual yield achieved. Things like furniture, cars etc. are excluded.

20.0% for the first € 275,000 and above that a corporate tax rate of 25.5% (determined in December 2008 for the tax year 2008 and may be the same rates in 2009 and 2010) 20.0% for the first € 200,000

And well, the property taxes are dependent upon area in the Netherlands, so yea I don't know how much is in your respective district.

These are just quick figures I found googling

In summary, not bad at all, especially given some of the benefits you're receiving.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

In summary, not bad at all, especially given some of the benefits you're receiving.

In a way, I wish America could see that higher taxes doesn't necessarily equal less power of the bag. -sigh- but I guess you can't make people learn about higher taxation and its benefits from one day to the other lol.

Reason I say that is because, bigger government sure, it will create some waste, but the government should be more transparent and less ambitious and competitive for higher taxes to work, otherwise we are just pissing money at the wind and letting politicians keep it.

[Khadgar]

If he's from the Netherlands he's really overstating his fuel taxes. They're not even in the top 10 in the EU.

http://visual.ly/worldwide-cost-fuel

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If he's from the Netherlands he's really overstating his fuel taxes. They're not even in the top 10 in the EU.

http://visual.ly/worldwide-cost-fuel

Wait, how is Holland's 60% of petrol tax not higher than UK's 59%?

The diesel rates, yea they're lower lol

[Khadgar]

If he's from the Netherlands he's really overstating his fuel taxes. They're not even in the top 10 in the EU.

http://visual.ly/worldwide-cost-fuel

Wait, how is Holland's 60% of petrol tax not higher than UK's 59%?

The diesel rates, yea :D they're lower lol

I think it sorts by diesel because that has a big impact on the price of well everything. It's the more important number really.

[Grave_n_idle]

Did I mention the tax rates? If you decide to work or study something useful, you'll give away much more than half of your income in taxes one way or another.

Fine by me. Sounds like you get plenty in return.

You want a zero tax rate, go live in Somalia - you'll quickly understand why that's not a popular tax model.

If you own a home, you're punished

'Punished'. I rarely type this on NSG but 'lol'.

...for that with some extra local taxes that can be several hundreds a year, as well as 'sewer access taxes' and taxes on energy and probably the highest fuel tax in the world, and a massive vehicle tax, and taxes on companies that are eventually pushed onto consumers and make this place hideously expensive to buy anything.

Hundreds a year? How monstrous!

Civilised nations pay taxes.

*shrugs*

We're pretty much the only country that has the worst of both worlds - a cruel income tax and a cruel tax on everything you buy.

I looked it up. I think your use of the word 'cruel' is more than a little hyperbolic.

Yeah, there you go. If you want to work, you'll be the one complaining.

You know, I don't think I would be the one complaining. It sounds okay to me.

It sounds like what you pay in taxes is more than compensated by what it saves, overall - and what it would do for competition in the employment market.

Besides, I'm an altruistic sort - I don't need to suffer on the backs of others who have it worse than me. It sounds ideal.

[Grave_n_idle]

They get 91 euros a month per child, and you think this is an income source? Wait, you said "up to" so, what's the average? Holy shit you must have really low cost of living.

Again, that's in addition to regular benefits. And those alone can stack up to well above minimum wage, which in this country means 'enough to feed a family of four with'.

So all the families of four are fed?

That sounds wonderful.

I'm hard pressed to find anything in this description to dislike.

Do they still wear clogs? I don't like clogs - I could get right behind hating on that.

[Quintium]

Maximum taxes are 52%. If you earn 55,000 Euros a year.

Nah, that's just the highest income tax bracket. Income tax certainly isn't the only tax - by the time you can spend some money, three quarters will generally have evaporated.

You want a zero tax rate, go live in Somalia - you'll quickly understand why that's not a popular tax model.

I don't want zero taxes, but if I work from monday to friday, I don't want to work at least until wednesday afternoon before the money I make starts ending up in my pockets instead of the government's. They're taking the fruits of my labour in order to pay for a lot of people I don't want to pay for.

Fine by me. Sounds like you get plenty in return.

I don't get what I want in return. In fact, I get preciously little in return. They take half of my income and what do I get? A small part of that back, as if they're giving me the privilege of getting a pittance back after I've given them a fortune.

If he's from the Netherlands he's really overstating his fuel taxes. They're not even in the top 10 in the EU.

According to that website, I'd be paying €1.42 / l for diesel and €1.70 for petrol. It's either based on very outdated information or it's done something wrong in converting those currencies. If that website was accurate, I'd be the happiest man in the world - and I'd be grabbing my car keys and heading for the nearest petrol station right now, because the prices would be at their lowest point in six years. At the moment, fuel prices stand at around €1.50 / l for diesel and around €1.82 / l for petrol, with urban petrol stations and those along major roads having even more inflated prices.

As for taxes, check out the third page of
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/observatory/ ... -taxes.pdf

It might be a bit more recent - a week old - and not a simple infographic that seems to have been made to 'stop people moaning about fuel prices'.
According to that, current taxes levied per 1000 l of petrol in euros are:

Austria 525.74
Belgium 613.57
Bulgaria 363.02
Cyprus 439.7
Czech Republic 502.7
Denmark 591.26
Estonia 422.77
Finland 623.7
France 612.5
Germany 654.5
Greece 684.25
Hungary 406.39
Ireland 607.72
Italy 728.4
Latvia 432.41
Lithuania 434.43
Luxembourg 462.09
Malta 469.38
Netherlands 752.45
Poland 402.24
Portugal 585.27
Romania 371.97
Slovakia 570.17
Slovenia 565.93
Spain 464.26
Sweden 676.2
United Kingdom 663.54

Tell me, who's paying most out of these?

This is why I really do resent the government. It punishes people who get into their cars at eight in the morning on monday, knowing they'll be working until wednesday for taxes alone.

[Meryuma]

Left-Right is economics

No, it refers to one's overarching view on society.

[Terrordome]

I am not a conservative by any means but as I have grown up I have turned from anti-revisionist communism as an idealistic teenager/student to more of a centrist as I grew up and experienced to real world. The main reason for this is discarding the idealism of my youth and looking at things through more pragmatic eyes.

I have no faith whatsoever in utopian ideals whether they be a true communist egalitarian paradise or an individualistic tax-free libertarian paradise. They are all impractical pipe dreams. I believe in pragmatism and compromise.

Well that's my point of view! Hope it is of some help to your studies. I also try (sometimes unsuccessfully!) to tolerate and accept other people's political beliefs. I think it is generally a good thing that some people actually care how the world is run. There is lots of political apathy and while I completely disagree with your libertarian principles at least you have an opinion unlike most average people.

[Grenartia]

It happened along with my transition from Atheism to Theism.

Thats weird. My transition from atheism to Christianity (which I assume you mean by theism) sent me from conservative to liberal.

No you didn't. For example - your anecdote about girls popping out babies as a kind of cottage business - which is basically this generations retelling of Reagan's great 'welfare queen' lie. And worse - everyone knew it was a lie back then, and the people telling the lie now, know it's a lie now.

1. It's not a lie. In this country, and everywhere, more and more children are growing up in this situation. 2. And actually, having children you can't afford to take care of is profitable. 3. Aside from indirect welfare increases, which include the right to a house with garden paid for by the state, and free health care for those children, they can get up to 4. €273 per child every three months in direct payments from the state. In addition, the state funds most of the costs of professional childcare, 5. meaning the state pays for someone to take care of your child during the day.

You want to talk reality? People with no money and no safety net will starve, or they'll survive. And some will starve and some will survive. And if you give them no alternatives, history tells us that they survive through two chief mechanisms - crime, and bloody, bloody revolt.

It's not about whether or not a safety net exists. Actually, I'm all in favour of a safety net - but it should be just that. 6. A safety net, not a hammock. I live in a country where the safety net includes alternative medicine, free housing, free or heavily-subsidised health care, welfare payments that often stack up above minimum wage, a state-subsidised artist class, state-subsidised cultural festivals for every minority, free public transport for many people and cheap public transport for most, pensions even for those who haven't worked a day in their lives, and much more. That's where I'd draw the line. Welfare shouldn't be an end in itself, it should be a means to an end. That end should be financial self-sufficiency and a net contribution to society whenever possible.

And if people - though a majority here wants cuts in those frivolous fields - want to revolt over things like art subsidies and child benefits, then we'll just laugh at them and turn the riot police on them. It's never been any worse than that since the 1980s, and we've had massive budget cuts since then.

1. Source it, then. If its not a lie, then you should obviously be able to prove it.

2. Again, I'm going to call bullshit, and demand a source.

3. Again, I find it incredibly fucking hard to believe there's a right to a house with a garden. So source the bullshit.

4. I don't know how much that is in American money, but I know for fact that even one person can't survive on $273 (American, of course) only every three months, much less one person and a kid. And having more kids ONLY increases the cost to keep them alive. There cannot be a break-even point.

5. Yes, the state paying for childcare for working-class parents who could not otherwise afford it is a good thing.

6. I don't know what shit's like in the Netherlands, but here in America, the safety net is only a string. The thread that held Damocles' Sword was more substantial in comparison to our safety net. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the Netherlands has made an entire "hammock".

[The Horror Channel]

I'm about to turn 37, and i'm more liberal now than I was at 17.

[Grave_n_idle]

I don't want zero taxes, but if I work from monday to friday, I don't want to work at least until wednesday afternoon before the money I make starts ending up in my pockets instead of the government's.

This is a silly argument.

It's like me saying that if I earn a thousand dollars a week, and I want to earn two thousand dollars a week, someone has to be to blame for that shortfall - even though it's in my head.

Taxation is functionally just a modifier on the value of a unit of currency - you're complaining because you want the currency per hour to be 'worth' twice as much. You should work longer hours, or get a better paid job.

They're taking the fruits of my labour in order to pay for a lot of people I don't want to pay for.

No, they're not. Value of currency is collaborative. Even when it's linked to something solid (like gold), it's not actually based on the intrinsic worth of gold, but the perceived worth, determined by market forces - value of currency is ALWAYS collaborative.

Your complaint is that the collaborative value of your labour is half what you think it should be, but rather than work harder, or get a better paid job, you're going to complain about other people.

I don't get what I want in return. In fact, I get preciously little in return. They take half of my income and what do I get? A small part of that back, as if they're giving me the privilege of getting a pittance back after I've given them a fortune.

The problem here is that you've started from a flawed assumption about the 'value' of your labour, and then you've compounded the error by assuming that what you get back is based an equivalent monetary remuneration. That's rarely how transactions work.

[Khadgar]

I don't know how much that is in American money, but I know for fact that even one person can't survive on $273 (American, of course) only every three months, much less one person and a kid. And having more kids ONLY increases the cost to keep them alive. There cannot be a break-even point.

$351.90 at today's exchange rate.

[Tagmatium]

Not made that transition.

[Luziyca]

When I first started, I had no real views except being pro-tax hikes. Then, in 2010, I dashed to the DPRK-side before flowing to democratic socialism, and a hodge-podge of views in it.

[Lenninists]

Well besides getting a job and paying taxes (that was a big one) I also began to understand individualism and how it can bring great happiness to everyone, besides that one of the greatest questions I was ever asked.

"Is it right to take something away from a man who has done nothing wrong."
I answered "no"
"Then is it right to give something to someone who has done nothing right."
To which I then answered "no"

Also I classify myself as a centrist libertarian.