Your transition from liberalism to conservatism

[Free Detroit]

it is wrong that as someone who definitely leans right economically, that both mainstream parties are further right than I am.

This is more or less the point I was making. In the past, this wasn't really the case - both parties were much more center-right, as was the population at large. A good chunk of the population was openly leftist. Not the case anymore - now, both parties are different textures of far-right and the people have tended to shift to match that. The most far left people one finds in the mainstream today would likely not have had a problem voting for Nixon a few decades ago. We've moved right.

By "making greed fashionable", I was referring to the dramatic right turn the country took in the 80s, which was largely a post-boomer movement (the original "yuppies"). "Greed is good" was one of the key slogans, and American politics have had that air of Ayn Rand-ian nihilism about them ever since.

I think that the pressing issue is the military spending, we could afford all these things (that we need) if we cut down dramatically on the insane military spending, and both parties are pretty guilty of this.

I agree completely.

[Grenartia]

Ayn Rand, the author of Atlas Shrugged (of which John Galt is a character), is well known to have said that altruism is a mental illness, that selfishness is a good thing, among other things. She also implicitly (if not explicitly) said that government assistance programs are a bad idea, but when she died, she was getting a check from Uncle Sam.

When I was a conservative, I was a social conservative. Extremely so. Anti-LGBT equality, anti-abortion (to the point of feeling that women who got them should've been tried for murder, with possibility of capital punishment), etc.

As a conservative Ayn Rand had a point, but she took it a little far, that doesn't mean conservative economic principles are all shit though.

What informed your transition socially, if I may ask? I really dislike the narrow minded moral values of social conservatives, perhaps they have a point but it is heavily informed by personal bias which causes them to miss how they are wrong when one looks at the bigger picture.

Well, for one, growing up did play a fairly large role in opening my eyes, as did becoming a Christian. By the time I turned 14, I was more moderate. Still anti-abortion (after the end of the 1st trimester, anyways), and I was anti-death penalty, and felt that rape/incest/life of the mother were justifiable situations. I was also more open to LGBT equality, though I still looked down on LGBT people (that changed a year later when I realized I was bi, and after talking with somebody who was transgender).

Currently, I'm more or less apathetic on the issue of abortion, to be honest. Yeah, abortion should be something that nobody should have to get, but all too often, its necessary. Banning it only means people who need it will resort to getting it in ways that will put their health at risk, and could result in a deformed child, among other things.

[Free Soviets]

The most far left people one finds in the mainstream today would likely not have had a problem voting for Nixon a few decades ago.

see, that's insane. nixon is well to the right of today's median democrat. the fact that he signed some democrat-passed bills into law on shit he didn't care about doesn't change that.

[Free Detroit]

... as did becoming a Christian...

And this turned you away from conservatism? +1 cookie for you, my friend.

My father's conversion to Catholicism (followed some years later by my aunts and grandparents due to his evangelism) really moved our family away from conservatism.

[Trotskylvania]

The most far left people one finds in the mainstream today would likely not have had a problem voting for Nixon a few decades ago.

see, that's insane. nixon is well to the right of today's median democrat. the fact that he signed some democrat-passed bills into law on shit he didn't care about doesn't change that.

We're dealing with different conceptions of left-wing here.

If you limit it to economic issues, than Nixon is undoubtedly more left-wing than the current Democratic Party; his universal health care proposal was considerably more radical than Obamacare. He also invoked considerable federal control into the economy during the economic crises of the early 70s, and did support a number of federal economic initiatives (like new city planning, energy projects, etc.) that simply are not on the table today.

That said, he most certainly campaigned and postured himself as a rightist. And nowhere was that more evident than the "Southern Strategy".

[Cameroi]

i doubt very much that i shall every prefer to be mistaken for "conservative" over being mistaken for "liberal". it should go without saying that they are a side issue and a distraction, from what really matters, which is the kind of world, real people, places and things, have to live in. not corporate economic interests or little green pieces of paper.

there are certainly things worth conserving. some have been around a long time. many more are waiting in the wings to be created. to much that is called conservatism conserves nothing, and only destroys and destroys far more then any liberal focus that does not put a high premium on conserving. in today's world it is the liberals who conserve, and conservatives who conserve only hatered, warfare, and the modes of getting away with extremes of inconsiderateness which have been longest familiar to them.

if aging is supposed to make us conservatives who conserve nothing, perhaps this is a form of senile dementia.

[Grenartia]

... as did becoming a Christian...

And this turned you away from conservatism? +1 cookie for you, my friend.

My father's conversion to Catholicism (followed some years later by my aunts and grandparents due to his evangelism) really moved our family away from conservatism.

Yeah. *noms cookie*

That's my problem with evangelism. It tends to push people away from Christianity (and make others think we're intolerant asshats who like shoving our religion down peoples' throats) more than attract them to it, or at least respectfully disagreeing.

[Free Detroit]

The most far left people one finds in the mainstream today would likely not have had a problem voting for Nixon a few decades ago.

see, that's insane. nixon is well to the right of today's median democrat. the fact that he signed some democrat-passed bills into law on shit he didn't care about doesn't change that.

I was exaggerating a bit, yes, but I don't think it's insane. A median Democrat of today would not support to a lot of the shit Dick was willing to compromise on. Maybe it's a genuine shift in political leanings, maybe it's spinelessness, but I can't see Dems supporting any legislation equivalent to the EPA or real welfare reform or the kinds of Indian affairs bills that they produced, and got passed, under Nixon.

Todays Dems are beholden only to their corporate masters, they have 0% populism, minimal concern for environmental issues (they just don't care about them, because the industries they support tend not to depend overmuch on a heavy carbon footprint), a full dependence on increased military spending, and even more imperialist ambitions for the country than the Republicans.

I stand by it... Republicans are just stupid and corrupt oligarchs - Democrats are truly vile, totalitarian imperialists.

[Free Detroit]

see, that's insane. nixon is well to the right of today's median democrat. the fact that he signed some democrat-passed bills into law on shit he didn't care about doesn't change that.

We're dealing with different conceptions of left-wing here.

If you limit it to economic issues, than Nixon is undoubtedly more left-wing than the current Democratic Party; his universal health care proposal was considerably more radical than Obamacare. He also invoked considerable federal control into the economy during the economic crises of the early 70s, and did support a number of federal economic initiatives (like new city planning, energy projects, etc.) that simply are not on the table today.

That said, he most certainly campaigned and postured himself as a rightist. And nowhere was that more evident than the "Southern Strategy".

Thanks, Trots. I mentioned definitions before, but you've come to my rescue once again.

[Herador]

...as did becoming a Christian.

Holy crap, someone else had this happen to them? I thought I was just weird.

[Christian Democrats]

I would like to when/why/what caused any fellow libertarian/conservative/capitalist NSGers to "see the light" so to speak.

I never haven't "seen the light." As long as I can remember, my political views have been center-right or right-wing.

Of course, I have changed my opinions on some particular issues; but my general outlook has stayed basically the same.

[Free Soviets]

see, that's insane. nixon is well to the right of today's median democrat. the fact that he signed some democrat-passed bills into law on shit he didn't care about doesn't change that.

We're dealing with different conceptions of left-wing here.

If you limit it to economic issues, than Nixon is undoubtedly more left-wing than the current Democratic Party; his universal health care proposal was considerably more radical than Obamacare. He also invoked considerable federal control into the economy during the economic crises of the early 70s, and did support a number of federal economic initiatives (like new city planning, energy projects, etc.) that simply are not on the table today.

That said, he most certainly campaigned and postured himself as a rightist. And nowhere was that more evident than the "Southern Strategy".

see, i tend to take that the other way. conservatives apparently go through some periods of crazed market worship and others where economics is an afterthought. and that means that we can't really read too much into 'government control' or the like. instead we need to look at the abiding interest of conservatism - the defense of hierarchy.

on healthcare specifically, i think the real issue is that all the previous plans anyone attempted to pass have failed, and the factors that made them fail have not gone away - we'd actually gained an important new one in the filibuster. so everybody was operating with lowered expectations this time.
...and then it turned out they still weren't low enough, because lieberman is an asshole.

if we had been operating in 2009 on the old 'only filibuster giving black people rights' model, we'd have had something much closer to universal healthcare. maybe even an outright medicare buy-in. which says that we had a congress that in previous eras could have passed at least some of those bills that failed before.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I would like to when/why/what caused any fellow libertarian/conservative/capitalist NSGers to "see the light" so to speak. Partly because I'm reflecting on my own course and would like to hear others'.

I would say I followed a not uncommon path in terms of politcal beliefs. In high-school and early university I was definitely liberal in terms of my political opinions. Won't go into why because I couldn't exactly say why - I can only theorize. Once I aged a bit more, became totally obsessed with libertarian/capitalist ideals. Not saying that age is the sole key to holding conservative beliefs, nor that liberals are more immature biologically. But I see so often that older people tend to be more conservative than younger people. I'm 26 now and still so many of my friends are liberal, so I can't chalk it up to just aging/maturing. I had specific experiences that led to my beliefs and would like to hear yours.

To the fellow libertarian/conservative/capitalist NSGers, what was your magic formula to becoming capitalist from once being liberal?

I am a "capitalist" although not a libertarian or conservative. Far from it.

As I saw multiple theories of government and economics and how they could be applied I have gathered a somewhat moderate stance. I am left-leaning for sure, but I am more center-left rather than a solid left or a radical left. I just took the best ideas and combined them with my own philosophy of how things should run.

I did read Ayn Rand (I saw someone making such a point at the beginning) but I think she is too radical for even ME, and I am an introvert intellectual in personality who believes in order and structure and freedom of markets, but she goes too far on her philosophy when you see beyond Atlas Shrugged. Her epistemology is flawed with so many errors in logic and her economics were not even practical at the time (I mean, really? She even advocated not having social security and other benefits Americans enjoy nowadays, plus other stuff that she took way too far. My opinion of her is that she was paranoid about communism, and she turned out to be a radical capitalist) which is when I decided to move a bit to the left. Not a lot though since I also think Karl Marx thinks of an utopia that just can't be possible because people are focused on themselves, not on their community, and so socialism and collectivist ideologies fall flat because of this very premise of self-interest.

All in all I have to say this for myself: I am more of a left-leaning capitalist rather than a true conservative as I have the leanings towards free enterprise and other stuff, but I also have some left-leaning tendencies on some issues (especially on civil rights and political freedoms), which is not bad at all, it's just how I am.

[Grenartia]

...as did becoming a Christian.

Holy crap, someone else had this happen to them? I thought I was just weird.

Yeah. It seems we're a rare breed.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Holy crap, someone else had this happen to them? I thought I was just weird.

Yeah. It seems we're a rare breed.

I was brought up into a Christian upbringing (going to both evangelical and catholic schools and going to church). My parents were strict, which is where some of my conservative ideas come from, but also where I got my left-leanings on civil rights

[Free Detroit]

Holy crap, someone else had this happen to them? I thought I was just weird.

Yeah. It seems we're a rare breed.

Christians who actually pay attention to your deity? Yeah, you're needles in a crapstack.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Christians who actually pay attention to your deity? Yeah, you're needles in a crapstack.

This is actually very true indeed

[Grenartia]

Yeah. It seems we're a rare breed.

Christians who actually pay attention to your deity? Yeah, you're needles in a crapstack.

Yeah. To the point where I once got into a TG debate with one of this site's Mormons (ironic, seeing how many other Christians consider Mormons heretics), and got called a heretic for my stance on what the Bible says about homosexuality.

Yeah. It seems we're a rare breed.

I was brought up into a Christian upbringing (going to both evangelical and catholic schools and going to church). My parents were strict, which is where some of my conservative ideas come from, but also where I got my left-leanings on civil rights

I know the feeling. I used to go to a Southern Baptist-run school near an area of Louisiana that's mostly Catholic. And was partially raised by homophobic, slightly racist grandparents.

[Grave_n_idle]

... as did becoming a Christian...

And this turned you away from conservatism? +1 cookie for you, my friend.

My father's conversion to Catholicism (followed some years later by my aunts and grandparents due to his evangelism) really moved our family away from conservatism.

Converting to Christianity should turn people away from typical (American) rightwing politics, because Jesus preached a message far closer to a leftwing ideology than a rightwing ideology.

The fact that Christianity and rightwing politics go together so well in the US, is evidence of what is wrong with American Christianity - it's not based on Jesus.

[The Archregimancy]

And this turned you away from conservatism? +1 cookie for you, my friend.

My father's conversion to Catholicism (followed some years later by my aunts and grandparents due to his evangelism) really moved our family away from conservatism.

Converting to Christianity should turn people away from typical (American) rightwing politics, because Jesus preached a message far closer to a leftwing ideology than a rightwing ideology.

The fact that Christianity and rightwing politics go together so well in the US, is evidence of what is wrong with American Christianity - it's not based on Jesus.

It's a rare (though not wholly unique) day when GnI and I agree on a issue relating to Christianity, but I would wholly endorse the above sentiment.


American conservative evangelical protestantism is a cancerous pox on the American body politic, and I'd personally go so far as to argue that it's actively damaging to Christianity generally.

[Esternial]

Converting to Christianity should turn people away from typical (American) rightwing politics, because Jesus preached a message far closer to a leftwing ideology than a rightwing ideology.

The fact that Christianity and rightwing politics go together so well in the US, is evidence of what is wrong with American Christianity - it's not based on Jesus.

It's a rare (though not wholly unique) day when GnI and I agree on a issue relating to Christianity, but I would wholly endorse the above sentiment.


American conservative evangelical protestantism is a cancerous pox on the American body politic, and I'd personally go so far as to argue that it's actively damaging to Christianity generally.

I guess that makes a whole lot of sense, though European Christianity also exhibits some conservative sentiment within their ranks, by which I mean the folks down at Vatican City. Maybe this has something to do with many of them being well-aged men that want to preserve the 'purity' of their religion, thus making certain progressive changes that would benefit the Church's public image a lot harder to achieve.

[Grenartia]

Converting to Christianity should turn people away from typical (American) rightwing politics, because Jesus preached a message far closer to a leftwing ideology than a rightwing ideology.

The fact that Christianity and rightwing politics go together so well in the US, is evidence of what is wrong with American Christianity - it's not based on Jesus.

It's a rare (though not wholly unique) day when GnI and I agree on a issue relating to Christianity, but I would wholly endorse the above sentiment.


American conservative evangelical protestantism is a cancerous pox on the American body politic, and I'd personally go so far as to argue that it's actively damaging to Christianity generally.

Well, one should think its a fairly obvious statement, anyways. Its like saying the sky is blue.

[Forster Keys]

A lot of recent history's great social progress has been driven groups which you could probably could Christian fundamentalists.

[Grenartia]

It's a rare (though not wholly unique) day when GnI and I agree on a issue relating to Christianity, but I would wholly endorse the above sentiment.


American conservative evangelical protestantism is a cancerous pox on the American body politic, and I'd personally go so far as to argue that it's actively damaging to Christianity generally.

I guess that makes a whole lot of sense, though European Christianity also exhibits some conservative sentiment within their ranks, by which I mean the folks down at Vatican City. Maybe this has something to do with many of them being well-aged men that want to preserve the 'purity' of their religion, thus making certain progressive changes that would benefit the Church's public image a lot harder to achieve.

I'd say its more due to most of the Church's influence being in the Americas and certain 3rd world countries that are more likely to be socially conservative anyways. Not to mention that the very structure of the Church's hierarchy seems to support conservatism. It seems specifically designed to always be at least two generations behind the times. How young was the youngest papal candidate? And how young was the youngest cardinal in the Papal Conclave?

[Chelta]

When I was a lefty I wasn't very er... politically aware. I just supported the (Australian) Labor Party because my parents did. But I went to a private school and a lot of my peers were politically conservative and came from Liberal-supporting families. So when I actually started to become properly politically aware I found I instinctively agreed with the conservative points of view on most things. So I guess I was never actually a proper liberal in the first place, more like a pseudo-Laborite.