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Conservative Discussion Thread.

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Caninope
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Conservative Discussion Thread.

Postby Caninope » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:52 pm

Before I get started, I'd like to point everyone to this thread, the predecessor thread.

What is conservatism? Conservatism is, at it broadest, a broad ideological movement that consists of people wishing to preserve the current status quo. This thread is focused most specifically in conservatism in the West, and the various conservative movements that have sprung up. Do you have a specific conservative ideology that you find yourself adhering to? Are you neoconservative, paleoconservative, social conservative, progressive conservative, etc.? What conservative party (GOP, Tories, CDU, etc.) do you find yourself most supporting?

Moving from the domestic realm into the international realm, how do you formulate your foreign policy? Some ideologies, like neoconservatism, integrate foreign policy initiatives into the package (in this case, a hawkish neoliberalism/idealism mixed with just a twinge of political realism). Others, like American social conservatism have no predefined foreign policy. How does NSG's conservatives view the world? Do you agree with Samuel Huntington's view of the world as divided among civilizations, famed neoconservative scholar Francis Fukuyama's the end of history concept, or something else all together?*

How does NSG's conservatives view the world, economically? Are you an ardent support of neoliberal economic ideas (free market), or are you more constrained? What are the roles of budgets in the governments?

Finally, I'd like to extend an invitation to everyone for a critique of the various conservative ideologies, both theoretically, and in practice. It'd be nice if we could be polite about it, lest we bring down the mods. I'd open the critique with another post of mine from the previous thread:

OK then, I'll start.

Stop with the stupid proposals, ideas, and debating techniques, guys. You cannot go into debate armed with only faith and bad sources. It makes all of us look bad.

Learn what communism actually is, as well as socialism. Political theory is important. While it's easy and somewhat convenient to just point to failed examples in recent history and say "HAHA COMMUNISM" when the USSR wasn't really communist (and is only arguably a failed attempt at the dictatorship of the proletariat). Instead, it's far more satisfying and more effective to criticize the theoretical flaws of Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, etc. To do that, you have to know what those things mean.

Please learn what feminism actually is. It's the same deal, guys. There are reasons to critique academic feminism, as well as reasons to criticize the normative movement, but please don't try and associate the whole movement with a few "feminazis". Some, like our local neighborhood Tahar Joblis, have made the argument that feminism categorically overlooks serious male problems- that's fine. Saying that feminism works only for females, just because, is not.

That about covers it for now. But while I'm at it, I'll go ahead and classify myself and my conservative credentials. I'm an American neoconservative (with some libertarian leanings, and just a few social conservative influences from time to time) who embraces neoliberal market ideas.

That's my largest critique of conservative posters on the board.

And Caninpopus I said unto them, go forth and discuss.

*I'd like to note that there are differences between academic schools of thought (realism, liberalism, etc), and these thoughts as concepts of foreign policy.
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The Realm of God
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Postby The Realm of God » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:16 pm

I believe in a 'Progressive Conservatism' and the concepts of European Christian Democracy, in which change should slowly be implemented though the status quo should be maintained for the longest time possible, for stability and also to ensure that change is well thought out and takes into account 'the social, political and cultural' conditions of the country in which the change is being debated. Of all the conservative parties I mostly identify with the German, Christian Democratic Union, because of their social market economy and slow but progressive program of change.

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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 pm

I figure I'll actually add something useful, since inanity seems to be all you're getting right now (Realm of God aside).

How do you, OP, view the argument that in order to truly have a neoliberal economic system you need a robust welfare state so that corporations can better hire and fire as they please and have a true free market of labor?
Last edited by Choronzon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Realm of God
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Postby The Realm of God » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:27 pm

Choronzon wrote:I figure I'll actually add something useful, since inanity seems to be all you're getting right now (Realm of God aside).

How do you, OP, view the argument that in order to truly have a neoliberal economic system you need a robust welfare state so that corporations can better hire and fire as they please and have a true free market of labor?


The Neoliberal economic system actively needs welfare in order to be successful. In the UK, the place of it's birth, it was the privatisation of previously government owned industry, Thatcher never attacked the NHS and Welfare State. The Christian Democrats and their social market economy actively advocate for a large government and a generous, extensive welfare state.
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:30 pm

I am a social conservative with libertarian leanings on economics, foreign policy, and immigration. I also consider myself a traditionalist conservative. Of the major conservative parties I probably identify most with the GOP, but would prefer there be a different party from it in the U.S.
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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:31 pm

The Realm of God wrote:
Choronzon wrote:I figure I'll actually add something useful, since inanity seems to be all you're getting right now (Realm of God aside).

How do you, OP, view the argument that in order to truly have a neoliberal economic system you need a robust welfare state so that corporations can better hire and fire as they please and have a true free market of labor?


The Neoliberal economic system actively needs welfare in order to be successful. In the UK, the place of it's birth, it was the privatisation of previously government owned industry, Thatcher never attacked the NHS and Welfare State. The Christian Democrats and their social market economy actively advocate for a large government and a generous, extensive welfare state.

I entirely agree with you. I have problems with Neoliberalism, but at least its a lot more sensible than the Randian paradise a lot of conservatives beat off over.

On that note, I actually want to throw this one out there too (I've mentioned it in a few threads but it never gets responded to)- you can't have a free market with healthcare. It makes no sense. It is an essential service that you can't go without, so both sides to not enter into the contract voluntarily. One side needs the service, the other side has all the power and can charge whatever they want. It is not a free market. Thoughts?

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Choronzon wrote:I figure I'll actually add something useful, since inanity seems to be all you're getting right now (Realm of God aside).

How do you, OP, view the argument that in order to truly have a neoliberal economic system you need a robust welfare state so that corporations can better hire and fire as they please and have a true free market of labor?

Are you arguing that a social safety net or a government provided social safety net is necessary? If the former, that the church and private charities should fill the role of providing a safety net.
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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:34 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Choronzon wrote:I figure I'll actually add something useful, since inanity seems to be all you're getting right now (Realm of God aside).

How do you, OP, view the argument that in order to truly have a neoliberal economic system you need a robust welfare state so that corporations can better hire and fire as they please and have a true free market of labor?

Are you arguing that a social safety net or a government provided social safety net is necessary? If the former, that the church and private charities should fill the role of providing a safety net.

I'm not arguing anything here. I'm asking about Neoliberalism specifically, which says that the government should provide the social safety net, and everyone's thoughts on that particular aspect.
Last edited by Choronzon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Benomia
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Postby Benomia » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:35 pm

I'm a far-left-wing socialist.

I know, I know, I'm going...
Last edited by Benomia on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:37 pm

Benomia wrote:I'm a far-left-wing socialist.

I know, I know, I'm going...

I already reported your prior post as spam. I don't say this to be a dick, but to let you know that I really value nuanced political theory discussion and that this site would really benefit from having some well spoken, capable conservatives around. I'd like to know who they are, read their posts, and engage with them.

In short, I don't plan on letting this thread crash and burn because some of you can't just leave well enough alone.

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The Eldritch Isles
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Postby The Eldritch Isles » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:38 pm

Choronzon wrote:
The Realm of God wrote:
The Neoliberal economic system actively needs welfare in order to be successful. In the UK, the place of it's birth, it was the privatisation of previously government owned industry, Thatcher never attacked the NHS and Welfare State. The Christian Democrats and their social market economy actively advocate for a large government and a generous, extensive welfare state.

I entirely agree with you. I have problems with Neoliberalism, but at least its a lot more sensible than the Randian paradise a lot of conservatives beat off over.

On that note, I actually want to throw this one out there too (I've mentioned it in a few threads but it never gets responded to)- you can't have a free market with healthcare. It makes no sense. It is an essential service that you can't go without, so both sides to not enter into the contract voluntarily. One side needs the service, the other side has all the power and can charge whatever they want. It is not a free market. Thoughts?


As long as there's competition for providing Health Care, it's still a free market, because although everyone needs it, you can still opt to get it from someone else.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:38 pm

Choronzon wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Are you arguing that a social safety net or a government provided social safety net is necessary? If the former, that the church and private charities should fill the role of providing a safety net.

I'm not arguing anything here. I'm asking about Neoliberalism specifically, which says that the government should provide the social safety net, and everyone's thoughts on that particular aspect.

Okay- does your question assume that only the government can provide a social safety net?
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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:40 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Choronzon wrote:I'm not arguing anything here. I'm asking about Neoliberalism specifically, which says that the government should provide the social safety net, and everyone's thoughts on that particular aspect.

Okay- does your question assume that only the government can provide a social safety net?

Neoliberalism assumes that the government should provide the social safety net because then companies have a large pool of labor to draw from and may hire and fire at will.

My question assumes nothing. I'm asking for opinions on this particular aspect of neoliberalism.

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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:41 pm

The Eldritch Isles wrote:
Choronzon wrote:I entirely agree with you. I have problems with Neoliberalism, but at least its a lot more sensible than the Randian paradise a lot of conservatives beat off over.

On that note, I actually want to throw this one out there too (I've mentioned it in a few threads but it never gets responded to)- you can't have a free market with healthcare. It makes no sense. It is an essential service that you can't go without, so both sides to not enter into the contract voluntarily. One side needs the service, the other side has all the power and can charge whatever they want. It is not a free market. Thoughts?


As long as there's competition for providing Health Care, it's still a free market, because although everyone needs it, you can still opt to get it from someone else.

But you need to get it from someone. Period. Competition is not a cure all. The history of any industrial society will demonstrate that, especially with essential services, price fixing and trusts are formed.

I still maintain that with healthcare there can be no free market, because the buyer inherently lacks the same level of power as the seller. The agreement is not entered into freely, because you need healthcare.

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Miss Defied
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Postby Miss Defied » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:42 pm

I just want to say that I'm glad you started this. It was painful to watch an actual decent discussion unfold in that chat thread, knowing it would be locked.

I just think the audience may have been lost.

Sorry I don't really have much to add. I've considered myself to be "conservative" (not socially in the least however) in the past but I can't identify at all with the Republican Party. Never have. Never will. I flirted with Libertarian ideals about 10-15 years ago but then the Anarchists started getting loud. Then the Tea Party happened. And then ... well fuck that noise.
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Postby Zweite Alaje » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:45 pm

Benomia wrote:I'm a far-left-wing socialist.

I know, I know, I'm going...

A socialist can still be a social conservative. I'm a good example of that.
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The Realm of God
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Postby The Realm of God » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:50 pm

Choronzon wrote:
The Realm of God wrote:
The Neoliberal economic system actively needs welfare in order to be successful. In the UK, the place of it's birth, it was the privatisation of previously government owned industry, Thatcher never attacked the NHS and Welfare State. The Christian Democrats and their social market economy actively advocate for a large government and a generous, extensive welfare state.

I entirely agree with you. I have problems with Neoliberalism, but at least its a lot more sensible than the Randian paradise a lot of conservatives beat off over.

On that note, I actually want to throw this one out there too (I've mentioned it in a few threads but it never gets responded to)- you can't have a free market with healthcare. It makes no sense. It is an essential service that you can't go without, so both sides to not enter into the contract voluntarily. One side needs the service, the other side has all the power and can charge whatever they want. It is not a free market. Thoughts?


I don't argue a free market, I advocate for a capitalistic, but regulated Social Market Economy with extensive welfare, I think the free-market can deal with some aspects of health care. Such as after patient recovery and comfortable check-in therapists and mental health clinics. However I feel that we should have a government emergancy healthcare service for those who can't afford private care. I believe that the government has a duty to step in when people have no one else to turn to and Rands ideology is re-packaged Herbert Spencer style Social Darwinism and is not really conservative.

I consider Rerum Novarum, the Pope's call for the creation of political parties to create a fairer form of capitalism to be my political manifesto.
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Miss Defied
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Postby Miss Defied » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:50 pm

Choronzon wrote:
The Eldritch Isles wrote:
As long as there's competition for providing Health Care, it's still a free market, because although everyone needs it, you can still opt to get it from someone else.

But you need to get it from someone. Period. Competition is not a cure all. The history of any industrial society will demonstrate that, especially with essential services, price fixing and trusts are formed.

I still maintain that with healthcare there can be no free market, because the buyer inherently lacks the same level of power as the seller. The agreement is not entered into freely, because you need healthcare.

There's also the fact that in an emergency situation, competition goes out the window because you don't have much of a choice than to get to the nearest hospital if you plan on living.

I agree that I just don't see an unfettered free market being ideal when it comes to healthcare.
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Postby Pie-Goat-97 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:51 pm

Free market capitalism is the way, and I think that the GOP should get back into the sense of classic limited government conservatism rather than some of the hypocritical stances they hold now.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:53 pm

Miss Defied wrote:
Choronzon wrote:But you need to get it from someone. Period. Competition is not a cure all. The history of any industrial society will demonstrate that, especially with essential services, price fixing and trusts are formed.

I still maintain that with healthcare there can be no free market, because the buyer inherently lacks the same level of power as the seller. The agreement is not entered into freely, because you need healthcare.

There's also the fact that in an emergency situation, competition goes out the window because you don't have much of a choice than to get to the nearest hospital if you plan on living.

I agree that I just don't see an unfettered free market being ideal when it comes to healthcare.


And leonine contracts.
You are under absolutely no obligation to pay someone something that you had to agree to in order to save your life.

If hanging from a window ledge and I agree to fork over a million if you pull me up, there is no obligation on my part to come through.
This is the same situation as emergency rooms.
Since we either have to take the posistion therefore, that emergency rooms are free for all OR there should be no emergency rooms, we must consider that it is far, far, FAR more cost effective for preventative medicine to be the norm, and as such universal healthcare is the cheapest option.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:53 pm

The Realm of God wrote:I don't argue a free market, I advocate for a capitalistic, but regulated Social Market Economy with extensive welfare, I think the free-market can deal with some aspects of health care. Such as after patient recovery and comfortable check-in therapists and mental health clinics. However I feel that we should have a government emergancy healthcare service for those who can't afford private care. I believe that the government has a duty to step in when people have no one else to turn to and Rands ideology is re-packaged Herbert Spencer style Social Darwinism and is not really conservative.

I consider Rerum Novarum, the Pope's call for the creation of political parties to create a fairer form of capitalism to be my political manifesto.


I would agree with your reasoning (although not your conclusion). I just wanted to see how some of the self identified conservatives thought about it.

Miss Defied wrote:I agree that I just don't see an unfettered free market being ideal when it comes to healthcare.

Not only that, but I don't think its really a free market.
Last edited by Choronzon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:There's also the fact that in an emergency situation, competition goes out the window because you don't have much of a choice than to get to the nearest hospital if you plan on living.

I agree that I just don't see an unfettered free market being ideal when it comes to healthcare.


And leonine contracts.
You are under absolutely no obligation to pay someone something that you had to agree to in order to save your life.

If hanging from a window ledge and I agree to fork over a million if you pull me up, there is no obligation on my part to come through.
This is the same situation as emergency rooms.

Or fire protection. Or the police.

In a situation where the service is essential I still maintain there can never be a truly free market. The buyer fundamentally lacks power.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:56 pm

Choronzon wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
And leonine contracts.
You are under absolutely no obligation to pay someone something that you had to agree to in order to save your life.

If hanging from a window ledge and I agree to fork over a million if you pull me up, there is no obligation on my part to come through.
This is the same situation as emergency rooms.

Or fire protection. Or the police.

In a situation where the service is essential I still maintain there can never be a truly free market. The buyer fundamentally lacks power.


Precisely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability


"Leonine contracts" is what I refered to this as.
If we expand this concept, if also becomes apparent that some basic level of welfare is also necessary to prevent people from theft of bread, and to prevent property damage from riots.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:56 pm

Pie-Goat-97 wrote:Free market capitalism is the way, and I think that the GOP should get back into the sense of classic limited government conservatism rather than some of the hypocritical stances they hold now.

Free market as in Laissez Faire?

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Zweite Alaje
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Postby Zweite Alaje » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Pie-Goat-97 wrote:Free market capitalism is the way, and I think that the GOP should get back into the sense of classic limited government conservatism rather than some of the hypocritical stances they hold now.


Laissez-faire doesn't work, Dirigisme/Keynesianism have it beat every time.
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