Why should cultures be kept 'pure'?

[Screensaver]

Where did I say that we should colonize them again? To me I think the best way to change them is to actively engage them in peaceful dialogue so that they may see the errors of their ways. Sure European culture isn't perfect but it is better than savage cultures that entail sexism. bigotry, homophobia, love for violence, etc. I would never advocate violent means to change a culture. We should leave that to the savage cultures.

I'm not sure you understand me. What I'm trying to say is that your 'savage cultures' have noteworthy, decent values mixed in among the bullshit that are worth keeping. Indeed, we should engage them in dialogue - but not in neo-colonialism, which doesn't even really need to be political. We don't need to impose European culture upon them diplomatically any more than we needed to impose it militarily; we need to advocate human, humanist values that have nothing to do with being European besides being somewhat occasionally popular here.

Yes they are some good points in those inferior cultures. But those good points aren't as numerous or significant as the ones in superior European culture. Hence why those cultures are inferior.

[Tsa-la-gi Nation]

Well 1st off I hope we all can agree that no culture is pure & multiculturalism is mostly a good thing.

There are 2 reasons I can think of which warrants a culture to be protected.

1st: if a nation or race of people has been harmed in some way that has altered their natural progression as a culture by the government that oversees them or the majority race or nation from the country that they live in. Examples would be a minority race or culture being a victim of slavery or genocide. Such protection should end when that group of people have reached an economic & life expectancy levels (health) equal too the majority race &/or nation in the same country.

2nd: If another culture or race of people is emigrating to a nation or country at a rate in which it is a undue influence on the government's infrastructure or causes undue influence on a country's tax payers to accommodate the new nation & culture into it's own. In such a case, a government has a responsibility to slow down such emigration to a planned level, as to prevent civil unrest & negative impact on it's own economy.

[Saint Johns]

Don't you think cultures that are intellectually, technologically, scientifically and morally superior have the right (and maybe even responsibility) to annihilate and replace inferior cultures?

absolutely not. you cannot "annihilate" other cultures because they are less important.

[Arglorand]

I'm not sure you understand me. What I'm trying to say is that your 'savage cultures' have noteworthy, decent values mixed in among the bullshit that are worth keeping. Indeed, we should engage them in dialogue - but not in neo-colonialism, which doesn't even really need to be political. We don't need to impose European culture upon them diplomatically any more than we needed to impose it militarily; we need to advocate human, humanist values that have nothing to do with being European besides being somewhat occasionally popular here.

Yes they are some good points in those inferior cultures. But those good points aren't as numerous or significant as the ones in superior European culture. Hence why those cultures are inferior.

Why do you feel the need to assert that it's European culture that is superior? Haven't you been listening to what I'm saying? Humanist values are not exclusively European, nor do you need European culture to have them. These values shouldn't be advocated as part of a greater European culture, these values should be advocated as the new, cool way for indigenous cultures to go.

[Cetacea]

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence.

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman, a history of slavery, gang violence and a high murder rate.

Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

[Saint Johns]

Yes they are some good points in those inferior cultures. But those good points aren't as numerous or significant as the ones in superior European culture. Hence why those cultures are inferior.

Why do you feel the need to assert that it's European culture that is superior? Haven't you been listening to what I'm saying? Humanist values are not exclusively European, nor do you need European culture to have them. These values shouldn't be advocated as part of a greater European culture, these values should be advocated as the new, cool way for indigenous cultures to go.

Amen

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. Are cultures something static that stays the same for a specific period of time or are they in a constant condition of irritation, negotiation and restructuring?

No they are not. Anthropologically speaking all modern cultures have been exposed to elements of other cultures, therefore it would be stupid to think they are static. They are always in a constant condition of irritation, negotiation, and restructuring and this accelerates at any given exposure to new culture (with the internet accelerating cultural exchange at a faster pace than ever before).

2. Are cultures characterized by hybridity, meaning that they are the products of intercultural debates between two different cultures?

I wouldn't say "debates" although in this day and age that is highly the case. Most likely they have been exposed through wars and invasions to their land to these cultures and that's what has promoted the change of ideas and the evolution of an otherwise isolated culture.

3. If so, isn't it dubious to protect the culture you got accustomed to against the (peacefully advanced) influences of other, minority cultures, as every culture will eventually be influenced and transformed?

"Protecting a culture" is stupid, because even a peaceful culture can evolve into a xenophobic, violent culture through the introduction of what they call "inferior cultures". Therefore there is no such thing as cultural preservation because once the culture is introduced the host culture immediately changes their worldview and perspective.

[Arglorand]

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence.

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman. Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

Okay, to be fair, that's a tempting idea.

[Screensaver]

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence.

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman. Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

Where the fuck did I advocate violence as a means to change cultures?

[Puah-Puah Kepulauan]

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence.

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman. Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

There's not too much difference between USA and Europe.

[Ruridova]

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence.

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman, a history of slavery, gang violence and a high murder rate.

Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

I tend to agree with Europe politically, but invade the place where I was born and raised and live? Yeah. Try it. I dare you.

[Arglorand]

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman, a history of slavery, gang violence and a high murder rate.

Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

I tend to agree with Europe politically, but invade the place where I was born and raised and live? Yeah. Try it. I dare you.

We have to get on the same page here, Americans: just saying, Europe is not a unitary state. We find it very difficult for the twenty-something countries that are here to agree, so I'm not sure how you people tend to say that you agree with Europe and feel like it makes sense.

[Cetacea]

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman. Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

There's not too much difference between USA and Europe.

Yeah I know but apparently Europeans are inherently superior regardless of having the same savage traits

[Saint Johns]

So I'm thinking of a culture that does not allow homosexuals to marry, defends the right to bear arms, is known for it's racist hate groups, has a glass ceiling affecting payscales for woman, a history of slavery, gang violence and a high murder rate.

Yes obviously the superior EU needs to immediately invade Washington and wipe that inferior culture of the planet...

I tend to agree with Europe politically, but invade the place where I was born and raised and live? Yeah. Try it. I dare you.

Now homosexuals shouldnt marry and people should have the right to bear arms now the rest i dont mind

[Kilobugya]

They shouldn't be.


/thread

That, and it doesn't even mean anything, no culture even **is** pure, all cultures influence each other and are influenced by history.

[Arglorand]

There's not too much difference between USA and Europe.

Yeah I know but apparently Europeans are inherently superior regardless of having the same savage traits

As an European who has also interacted with Americans, I can say that whoever says Europeans as such are superior is talking fucking bullshit, regardless of the politics of America and of various countries here in Europe.

[Ruridova]

I tend to agree with Europe politically, but invade the place where I was born and raised and live? Yeah. Try it. I dare you.

We have to get on the same page here, Americans: just saying, Europe is not a unitary state. We find it very difficult for the twenty-something countries that are here to agree, so I'm not sure how you people tend to say that you agree with Europe and feel like it makes sense.

Ruridova is only a loose expy of the EU with an extensively different history in an alternate universe.

[Meryuma]

But although I don't want to live in a society characterized by such a culture as well as you probably don't want to, isn't it very 'eurocentric' (I just don't know the English expression including Northern America, too) to think that such cultures should be abolished? And again, what is a 'superior' culture? Is it a culture that pays regard to Western values?

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence. While no culture truly meets those requirements there are some cultures that come much closer to these ideals than others. All races are equal. Cultures are NOT equal. European culture for example is superior to cultures that treat women as second class citizens, execute homosexuals, rape infants to cure HIV/AIDS, and kill albinos for witchcraft rituals.

There is no such thing as "European culture". Also, Western societies in some regards still treat women as second class citizens and executed homosexuals until fairly recently.

A superior culture is a culture that doesn't entail the elements of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, or a love for violence. While no culture truly meets those requirements there are some cultures that come much closer to these ideals than others. All races are equal. Cultures are NOT equal. European culture for example is superior to cultures that treat women as second class citizens, execute homosexuals, rape infants to cure HIV/AIDS, and kill albinos for witchcraft rituals.

But that's subjective. Some people might think a culture is superior when women are treated according to the traditions, homosexuality is a crime against nature etc.

As a member of a human rights organization, I agitate against such cultures by organizing lectures about discrimination of women and similar things. But the more I think about that in a reflexive way, the more I feel that I represent an eurocentric, dogmatic attitude myself.

Opposing genocide isn't being "eurocentric and dogmatic".

Give me a culture you would consider entirely violent and hateful. For now, since your definition sounds like nearing it, I will provide examples from Tanzania.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ving_1.jpg
^Tanzanian carvings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A
^Tanzanian music.

The first link is just a picture of carvings. The second link is a music video. What you fail to recognize is that Tanzania is a multicultural country. There is some civilization these but there are other areas that are uncivilized.

Yes, and it's often the civilized groups who commit the atrocities.

So what about this Ayn Rand quote:

"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using.... What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."

Isn't she right? Maybe not in justifing the killing of native americans, but in the sense that native american culture was outdated and doomed to fail. It has no place in a modern world.

There is no such thing as Native American culture. A continent doesn't have a unified culture.

Don't you think cultures that are intellectually, technologically, scientifically and morally superior have the right (and maybe even responsibility) to annihilate and replace inferior cultures?

No. A culture that practices genocide is by definition morally inferior to a culture which doesn't.

Also, technology isn't a linear, one-size-fits all progression of increasingly beneficial developments and I'd argue a culture that practices traditional methods of sustainable horticulture is technologically superior to one that brought us factory farming and Monsanto in that its agricultural technologies produce more good compared to harm. That's not even getting into historical conquests such as those by Spain in which natives were fed alive to dogs for practicing gay sexual acts. Ain't Western civilization grand?

define superior
define inferior

In the sense that something is better and something is worse. The PS3 is better than the PS2.

Not sure if that comparison works in your favor. The iPhone is newer and more advanced than the N64, but who in their right mind would call it a better gaming platform? Similarly, the democratic and egalitarian Iroquois Confederacy were less flashy than the European cultures of the time, but who in their right mind would call the repressive, power-hungry and genocidal colonial powers morally superior?

[Arglorand]

Similarly, the democratic and egalitarian Iroquois Confederacy were less flashy than the European cultures of the time, but who in their right mind would call the repressive, power-hungry and genocidal colonial powers morally superior?

Ayn Rand.

Wait, that means nothing.
Right.

[Esternial]

If your cultures aren't pure you should start over with a fresh petri dish and inoculate it *nod*

[Puah-Puah Kepulauan]

But that's subjective. Some people might think a culture is superior when women are treated according to the traditions, homosexuality is a crime against nature etc.

As a member of a human rights organization, I agitate against such cultures by organizing lectures about discrimination of women and similar things. But the more I think about that in a reflexive way, the more I feel that I represent an eurocentric, dogmatic attitude myself.

Opposing genocide isn't being "eurocentric and dogmatic".

I didn't want to include genocide as genocide is a phenomenon concerning not only the culture tolerating genocide, but also a culture threatend by genocide.
But Arglorand already gave a nice response that could be an answer to my dilemma:

Why do you feel the need to assert that it's European culture that is superior? Haven't you been listening to what I'm saying? Humanist values are not exclusively European, nor do you need European culture to have them. These values shouldn't be advocated as part of a greater European culture, these values should be advocated as the new, cool way for indigenous cultures to go.

[Puah-Puah Kepulauan]

If your cultures aren't pure you should start over with a fresh petri dish and inoculate it *nod*

With you being the second one to say something like that, I wonder if there's something ambiguous about my question caused by some lack of language skills? ^^

[Ruridova]

If your cultures aren't pure you should start over with a fresh petri dish and inoculate it *nod*

With you being the second one to say something like that, I wonder if there's something ambiguous about my question caused by some lack of language skills? ^^

A culture can refer to multiple things. You'll just have to deal with it.

[Meryuma]

Opposing genocide isn't being "eurocentric and dogmatic".

I didn't want to include genocide as genocide is a phenomenon concerning not only the culture tolerating genocide, but also a culture threatend by genocide.
But Arglorand already gave a nice response that could be an answer to my dilemma:

Why do you feel the need to assert that it's European culture that is superior? Haven't you been listening to what I'm saying? Humanist values are not exclusively European, nor do you need European culture to have them. These values shouldn't be advocated as part of a greater European culture, these values should be advocated as the new, cool way for indigenous cultures to go.

I'm not saying European culture is superior, as should be established by my replies to people who said it is. The genocide I'm speaking is the genocide of gays in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and parts of Nigeria, which is sometimes downplayed or excused through appeals to cultural relativism.

[The USOT]

So, there are some questions I'd like to discuss with you. I will ask you them right away:

1. Are cultures something static that stays the same for a specific period of time or are they in a constant condition of irritation, negotiation and restructuring?

2. Are cultures characterized by hybridity, meaning that they are the products of intercultural debates between two different cultures?

3. If so, isn't it dubious to protect the culture you got accustomed to against the (peacefully advanced) influences of other, minority cultures, as every culture will eventually be influenced and transformed?

1) No. Culture is constantly changing, including our view of the past. Romanticism for instance has massivly glorified a poverty filled past to an epic one.

2) Yes always. Much of British culture for instance has been a combination of continental values under an empirical standpoint (amongst other things). Likewise our influence on and from India is enormous.

3) Depends on the minority culture. Westboro Baptist church as an example are a minority hate filled culture without any violent means of promoting their goals and a generally peaceful agenda in achieving their aims. That does not mean however their influence should become a meaningful part of our culture and this effort should be highly rejected.