The Mod-Sanctioned Israel/Palestine thread

[Divair]

So to those in the middle east at the moment, how calm is the situation in and around Gaza? Not heard anything about it as of recent so I take it's a good sign? Can't imagine Likud is keen to get negotiations happening again though.

Strangely quiet. Some conflicts at the border, but no rockets.



In other news, Obama is in Israel for the next two days. Kerry will be returning 24 hours after Obama's trip is over to pressure Bibi to pursue peace.

[DogDoo 7]

So to those in the middle east at the moment, how calm is the situation in and around Gaza? Not heard anything about it as of recent so I take it's a good sign? Can't imagine Likud is keen to get negotiations happening again though.

Strangely quiet. Some conflicts at the border, but no rockets.



In other news, Obama is in Israel for the next two days. Kerry will be returning 24 hours after Obama's trip is over to pressure Bibi to pursue peace.

How's the traffic down there? It's great being the forgotten city sometimes.

[Divair]

Strangely quiet. Some conflicts at the border, but no rockets.



In other news, Obama is in Israel for the next two days. Kerry will be returning 24 hours after Obama's trip is over to pressure Bibi to pursue peace.

How's the traffic down there? It's great being the forgotten city sometimes.

Absolutely horrible. If your road wasn't shut down, it's overloaded with traffic.

[Ralkovia]

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

[img]
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vbKhZZPFehc/T ... dscopy.gif[/img]



Africa hasn't improved much since we left. But to be honest, I don't support colonialism. Colonialism is stupid and inefficient. Corporations do the same things as Colonies but for a few hundred times less.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Then I'll just wear the kippah in Jordan and forego the Israel/US besties t-shirt. Makes it too easy.

How nice are your Arab friends:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 43,00.html

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

[DogDoo 7]

How nice are your Arab friends:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 43,00.html

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

oy

[Ralkovia]

How nice are your Arab friends:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 43,00.html

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

But Dogdoo and people like him have their role. Anytime the Arabs advocate murdering all the Jews in Israel, I usually cite leftist Jews, so they have the reclarify that they just mean zionist Jews. Then I bring up the fact that many zionists have helped the Palestinians. So they have to reclarify that they're only against the oppressive zionists. Then I bring up the fact that the Arabs have many of the same policies as the "Oppressive Zionists." And then they either shut or they have a limited number of responses either admitting that they actually only care about Arab Muslims(which discredits them.) or they have to support a peace solution(which can further be debated into a 2 state solution). Breaking down someones argument is always easiest by making them look inconsistent, because people try to seek consistency in their views.

[Souseiseki]

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

But Dogdoo and people like him have their role. Anytime the Arabs advocate murdering all the Jews in Israel, I usually cite leftist Jews, so they have the reclarify that they just mean zionist Jews. Then I bring up the fact that many zionists have helped the Palestinians. So they have to reclarify that they're only against the oppressive zionists. Then I bring up the fact that the Arabs have many of the same policies as the "Oppressive Zionists." And then they either shut or they have a limited number of responses either admitting that they actually only care about Arab Muslims(which discredits them.) or they have to support a peace solution(which can further be debated into a 2 state solution). Breaking down someones argument is always easiest by making them look inconsistent, because people try to seek consistency in their views.

did you ever have someone say "yeah i'm against oppresssion in general"

[DogDoo 7]

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

But Dogdoo and people like him have their role. Anytime the Arabs advocate murdering all the Jews in Israel, I usually cite leftist Jews, so they have the reclarify that they just mean zionist Jews. Then I bring up the fact that many zionists have helped the Palestinians. So they have to reclarify that they're only against the oppressive zionists. Then I bring up the fact that the Arabs have many of the same policies as the "Oppressive Zionists." And then they either shut or they have a limited number of responses either admitting that they actually only care about Arab Muslims(which discredits them.) or they have to support a peace solution(which can further be debated into a 2 state solution). Breaking down someones argument is always easiest by making them look inconsistent, because people try to seek consistency in their views.

I've been here long enough to know that the most consistent people have the stupidest solutions. Eventually you just gotta say fuck it, and go with practicality.
We wouldn't be a minority. We'd be HALF. That's not a minority. It wouldn't devolve into armed ethnic conflict. Most people here really and truly just want to live their lives. People like you are just consumed with fear.

[Ralkovia]

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

But Dogdoo and people like him have their role. Anytime the Arabs advocate murdering all the Jews in Israel, I usually cite leftist Jews, so they have the reclarify that they just mean zionist Jews. Then I bring up the fact that many zionists have helped the Palestinians. So they have to reclarify that they're only against the oppressive zionists. Then I bring up the fact that the Arabs have many of the same policies as the "Oppressive Zionists." And then they either shut or they have a limited number of responses either admitting that they actually only care about Arab Muslims(which discredits them.) or they have to support a peace solution(which can further be debated into a 2 state solution). Breaking down someones argument is always easiest by making them look inconsistent, because people try to seek consistency in their views.

did you ever have someone say "yeah i'm against oppresssion in general"

Different argument entirely, which also leads people to the 2 state solution.

[Ralkovia]

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

But Dogdoo and people like him have their role. Anytime the Arabs advocate murdering all the Jews in Israel, I usually cite leftist Jews, so they have the reclarify that they just mean zionist Jews. Then I bring up the fact that many zionists have helped the Palestinians. So they have to reclarify that they're only against the oppressive zionists. Then I bring up the fact that the Arabs have many of the same policies as the "Oppressive Zionists." And then they either shut or they have a limited number of responses either admitting that they actually only care about Arab Muslims(which discredits them.) or they have to support a peace solution(which can further be debated into a 2 state solution). Breaking down someones argument is always easiest by making them look inconsistent, because people try to seek consistency in their views.

I've been here long enough to know that the most consistent people have the stupidest solutions. Eventually you just gotta say fuck it, and go with practicality.
We wouldn't be a minority. We'd be HALF. That's not a minority. It wouldn't devolve into armed ethnic conflict. Most people here really and truly just want to live their lives. People like you are just consumed with fear.

"The 1932 census stated that Christians made up 54% of the population of Lebanon. Maronites, largest among the Christian denomination and then largely in control of the state apparatus, accounted for 29% of the total resident population. But since the 19th century, Muslim birth rates have been continually higher than Christian birth rates. Also, far larger numbers of Christians emigrated from Lebanon than Muslims. According to recent statistics by the CIA Factbook, 59,7% of the Lebanese population are Muslims, while 39,7% are Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Civil_War

150-200,000 dead.

By the way, we'd only be even amount of population if all the other Palestinians gave up their right to return.

People like me aren't consumed by fear. I'm just not stupid enough to believe everything would be okie dokie.

[Souseiseki]

I've been here long enough to know that the most consistent people have the stupidest solutions. Eventually you just gotta say fuck it, and go with practicality.
We wouldn't be a minority. We'd be HALF. That's not a minority. It wouldn't devolve into armed ethnic conflict. Most people here really and truly just want to live their lives. People like you are just consumed with fear.

"The 1932 census stated that Christians made up 54% of the population of Lebanon. Maronites, largest among the Christian denomination and then largely in control of the state apparatus, accounted for 29% of the total resident population. But since the 19th century, Muslim birth rates have been continually higher than Christian birth rates. Also, far larger numbers of Christians emigrated from Lebanon than Muslims. According to recent statistics by the CIA Factbook, 59,7% of the Lebanese population are Muslims, while 39,7% are Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Civil_War

150-200,000 dead.

"The government of Lebanon had been dominated by Maronite Christians since the state was created as a safe haven for them by the French colonial powers. However, the country had a large Muslim population and many pan-Arabist and Left Wing groups which opposed the pro-western government. "

"The Cold War had a powerful disintegrative effect on Lebanon, which was closely linked to the polarization that preceded the 1958 political crisis, since Maronites sided with the West while Left Wing and pan-Arab groups sided with Soviet aligned Arab countries."

i dunno, the message i'm getting from this is that a state dominatd by one ethnic/religious group is actually a bad idea. but you seem to using it in support?

[Ralkovia]

"The 1932 census stated that Christians made up 54% of the population of Lebanon. Maronites, largest among the Christian denomination and then largely in control of the state apparatus, accounted for 29% of the total resident population. But since the 19th century, Muslim birth rates have been continually higher than Christian birth rates. Also, far larger numbers of Christians emigrated from Lebanon than Muslims. According to recent statistics by the CIA Factbook, 59,7% of the Lebanese population are Muslims, while 39,7% are Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Civil_War

150-200,000 dead.

"The government of Lebanon had been dominated by Maronite Christians since the state was created as a safe haven for them by the French colonial powers. However, the country had a large Muslim population and many pan-Arabist and Left Wing groups which opposed the pro-western government. "

"The Cold War had a powerful disintegrative effect on Lebanon, which was closely linked to the polarization that preceded the 1958 political crisis, since Maronites sided with the West while Left Wing and pan-Arab groups sided with Soviet aligned Arab countries."

i dunno, the message i'm getting from this is that a state dominatd by one ethnic/religious group is actually a bad idea. but you seem to using it in support?

All I see is an argument against letting the Arab Muslims become a majority.

[DogDoo 7]

I've been here long enough to know that the most consistent people have the stupidest solutions. Eventually you just gotta say fuck it, and go with practicality.
We wouldn't be a minority. We'd be HALF. That's not a minority. It wouldn't devolve into armed ethnic conflict. Most people here really and truly just want to live their lives. People like you are just consumed with fear.

"The 1932 census stated that Christians made up 54% of the population of Lebanon. Maronites, largest among the Christian denomination and then largely in control of the state apparatus, accounted for 29% of the total resident population. But since the 19th century, Muslim birth rates have been continually higher than Christian birth rates. Also, far larger numbers of Christians emigrated from Lebanon than Muslims. According to recent statistics by the CIA Factbook, 59,7% of the Lebanese population are Muslims, while 39,7% are Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Civil_War

150-200,000 dead.

By the way, we'd only be even amount of population if all the other Palestinians gave up their right to return.

People like me aren't consumed by fear. I'm just not stupid enough to believe everything would be okie dokie.

Then I guess we better build in stronger minority protections into the apparatus of the state...

[Souseiseki]

"The government of Lebanon had been dominated by Maronite Christians since the state was created as a safe haven for them by the French colonial powers. However, the country had a large Muslim population and many pan-Arabist and Left Wing groups which opposed the pro-western government. "

"The Cold War had a powerful disintegrative effect on Lebanon, which was closely linked to the polarization that preceded the 1958 political crisis, since Maronites sided with the West while Left Wing and pan-Arab groups sided with Soviet aligned Arab countries."

i dunno, the message i'm getting from this is that a state dominatd by one ethnic/religious group is actually a bad idea. but you seem to using it in support?

All I see is an argument against letting the Arab Muslims become a majority.

The state collapsed in part because the government was dominated by one group. The failing in this you see is not that the state was dominated by one group, but that the group that was dominat was not oppressive enough and did not use ECONOMIC INCENTIVES and forced abortions to retain their dominance. Am I getting this right?

[Ralkovia]

All I see is an argument against letting the Arab Muslims become a majority.

The state collapsed in part because the government was dominated by one group. The failing in this you see is not that the state was dominated by one group, but that the group that was dominat was not oppressive enough and did not use ECONOMIC INCENTIVES and forced abortions to retain their dominance. Am I getting this right?

They lost the second they became a minority. All those things only help before hand.

[Ralkovia]

"The 1932 census stated that Christians made up 54% of the population of Lebanon. Maronites, largest among the Christian denomination and then largely in control of the state apparatus, accounted for 29% of the total resident population. But since the 19th century, Muslim birth rates have been continually higher than Christian birth rates. Also, far larger numbers of Christians emigrated from Lebanon than Muslims. According to recent statistics by the CIA Factbook, 59,7% of the Lebanese population are Muslims, while 39,7% are Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Civil_War

150-200,000 dead.

By the way, we'd only be even amount of population if all the other Palestinians gave up their right to return.

People like me aren't consumed by fear. I'm just not stupid enough to believe everything would be okie dokie.

Then I guess we better build in stronger minority protections into the apparatus of the state...

And if they get voted down? Or a constitution change like that of Egypt?

[DogDoo 7]

Then I guess we better build in stronger minority protections into the apparatus of the state...

And if they get voted down? Or a constitution change like that of Egypt?

we do the minority protections now, as we WRITE A FUCKING CONSTITUTION. We can even do it Latin American post-dictator style, where there are certain fundamental rights that are beyond the ability of the state to strip. Or at minimum require 3/4ths to amend.

We're not Egypt. We have a revolving door of politicians, not only one guy.

[Ralkovia]

And if they get voted down? Or a constitution change like that of Egypt?

we do the minority protections now, as we WRITE A FUCKING CONSTITUTION. We can even do it Latin American post-dictator style, where there are certain fundamental rights that are beyond the ability of the state to strip. Or at minimum require 3/4ths to amend.

We're not Egypt. We have a revolving door of politicians, not only one guy.

Except, Egypt voted Shariah in.

Israel should never be put in a situation where that needs to happen. So the 2 State solution is the only answer.

[DogDoo 7]

we do the minority protections now, as we WRITE A FUCKING CONSTITUTION. We can even do it Latin American post-dictator style, where there are certain fundamental rights that are beyond the ability of the state to strip. Or at minimum require 3/4ths to amend.

We're not Egypt. We have a revolving door of politicians, not only one guy.

Except, Egypt voted Shariah in.

Israel should never be put in a situation where that needs to happen. So the 2 State solution is the only answer.

Well, we STILL don't have reliable intercity transportation on Saturday. I'd gladly take Sharia if it means I can get from the airport to my house when I get back next Tuesday.

[Velthannen]

I can give you better than that Yorkopolis. I'll even pay for the plane ticket for you. All you gotta do is get on the plane and fly into any of those arab countries and then step off the plane wearing a yarmulke and a white T-shirt with a huge flag of Israel on the front of it and a huge flag of the United States on the back of it. IF you survive it I'll have to eat crow and shut up about the arabs/palestinians. Deal?

He probably would survive. People in arab countries aren't bloodthirsty child murderers, ready to kill any unprotected (white) American , contrary to what you may have heard from Bill O'rielly

[Yorkopolis]

Source this bullshit right now.

I can give you better than that Yorkopolis. I'll even pay for the plane ticket for you. All you gotta do is get on the plane and fly into any of those arab countries and then step off the plane wearing a yarmulke and a white T-shirt with a huge flag of Israel on the front of it and a huge flag of the United States on the back of it. IF you survive it I'll have to eat crow and shut up about the arabs/palestinians. Deal?

Obviously that is if I wear a white T-shirt with a huge flag of Israel, yarmulke and with the flag of the US on the back of it. If I don't I'm going to be just fine.

You don't seem to get it, do you. Let me explain lowly
That. Will. Never. Happen.
If Israel tried to expel the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, it would become a pariah state on the scale of North Korea. Not even the United States would support it after that. There may even be a call for regime change, and the establishment of a one-state solution, after a brief international occupation. In effect the hubris and overconfidence of the right wing expansionists would do more to destroy their own state than the Arab nations ever could.

. Terrorists fire rocket artillery into Israel........ Israel in turn invades terrorists territory, kills them all, and then annexes said territory. Do you really think the world is going to intervene on behalf of terrorists? There is no power on earth that can militarily crush Israel. Looks to me like the terrorists are fucked.

Except that when Israel invades the other nations around it, kills every single "terrorist" (which could just as easily be someone who you suspect as terrorist resulting in massacres like in Vietnam), they're going to make the terrorists only ever-more determined to defeat Israel. Plus, Israel would probably be stopped by an international coalition, don't overestimate Israel. While it may have a large army, its army can only go ever so large considering how small its population is. And besides, intervening like that would flush your reputation down the toilet and make you go down like a wannabe-Nazi Germany.

[Hitlerobamanation]

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

You lack an understanding of African History. Societal relations between groups were bad to begin with. Arab conquerors to the North had already begun expanding into and enslaving most of Northern Africa. A large number of the genocide so far has been Arabs/Muslims vs. Blacks.

Colonialism in reality likely brought closer communication to and the creation of actual urbanized cities in Africa. As much as you like to play white guilt and cry about colonialism, the fact of the matter is that the Tuareg have practiced slavery on their neighbors before colonialism and still continue to do so. And so on and so forth. Colonialism is a small factor in the over all "Fuck ton of things wrong with Africa." The first and foremost is the fact that colonialism was replaced by the corporation.

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

I'm just going to drop Rwanda and Sudan here, and walk away. Colonialism is a problem not a solution and as it stood it made it so development after was harder because the infrastructure they built was for their own interests and not the people's. Now there is no way to maintain it which is why there are problems with development and raising the quality of living. If you can't maintain infrastructure, you will never have anything. China might have fucked up relations even more between the Arabs and the blacks in Sudan, but at least they found a way to help Africa help itself, and really help it, not oppress them and destroy any remnants of what their culture used to be. Also, if you think Colonialism really did anything for the people that lived in these places I raise you the Herero and Namaqua Genocide. Colonialism was good for Africa my fucking ass.

[Hitlerobamanation]

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

Yeah no war before the British empire and colonialism. oh wait no ever since records began they have recorded wars and conflict. Really the zulu's, the Benin empire the ancient Egyptian, the numidians, Ethiopian's, all big Waring nations before Europeans arrived that had conquered neighboring tribes. Actually as stated earlier it was the fact that instead of helping them develop we just totally fucked off like a rapist fleeing the crime seen due to liberal guilt that caused the problems. I might want to also add what do you think about the genocidal killings of the native american Indians, groups that until the revolution were treated by the crown as trade partners and allies for the most part?

I didn't say everyone was living peacefully together since the beginning of time, I said colonialism created new conflicts between native groups where previously there were none, or not in any way substantial to what they were after. I agree with you about how you left, that wasn't great, but that doesn't mean that colonialism is the solution.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

That's why the bi-national plan is impossible. If the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

In reality, it wouldn't be genocide. It'd likely end in civil war as millions of returning Palestinians would feel hostility towards the Jewish residents. It'd likely be a repeat of Lebanon, but the Arabs would definitely throw weapons towards the Palestinians. If it didn't end in Civil War it would likely end in the implementation of revenge politics or isolation and denigration of the Jewish Community. We'd once again be a minority and we have never fared well as a minority.

So either a 2 state solution with 100,000's dead or the establishment of an Aparteid state against Jews. Neither sound good.

What anyone who wants the 1 State Solution is actually advocating is the return to the times when a Jew depended on another state for protection.

Which is something that hasn't exactly worked out all that well.