The Mod-Sanctioned Israel/Palestine thread

[Imperiatom]

What crazy american logic is this? Palestine is not a bread basket, its a shit hole because of all the conflict and Israelite belief in a fictional book. And the fact the UN thought it was a good idea to insert a Jewish state into the middle east, that was going to end well if at all. They only had the example off 250 years of crusades to know it would not work.

Except Israel under the Jews has prospered. Israel has become a technology super power pumping out medicine and technology.

Yeah no thanks to $115b of your US tax dollars whilst nothing to Palestine, not to mention the various economic blockades that the Palestinians have suffered from Israel. Its like watching Monty python play kick the beggar.

[DogDoo 7]

Except Israel under the Jews has prospered. Israel has become a technology super power pumping out medicine and technology.

Yeah no thanks to $115b of your US tax dollars whilst nothing to Palestine, not to mention the various economic blockades that the Palestinians have suffered from Israel. Its like watching Monty python play kick the beggar.

It's rather more complicated than that. Most of the roads between Palestinian villages were built with USAID money. There's large signs saying "this road is a gift from the American people to the Palestinian people."

[Imperiatom]

Yeah no thanks to $115b of your US tax dollars whilst nothing to Palestine, not to mention the various economic blockades that the Palestinians have suffered from Israel. Its like watching Monty python play kick the beggar.

It's rather more complicated than that. Most of the roads between Palestinian villages were built with USAID money. There's large signs saying "this road is a gift from the American people to the Palestinian people."

Correction This road was a gift from the american people, but Santa came a dropped another gift from the american people and sadly the road is no-more. There is something distinctly two faced in helping somebody to build a road and then giving the other side the means to destroy it. Or is this standard american policy?

[DogDoo 7]

It's rather more complicated than that. Most of the roads between Palestinian villages were built with USAID money. There's large signs saying "this road is a gift from the American people to the Palestinian people."

Correction This road was a gift from the american people, but Santa came a dropped another gift from the american people and sadly the road is no-more. There is something distinctly two faced in helping somebody to build a road and then giving the other side the means to destroy it. Or is this standard american policy?

That's pretty standard American policy.

[Imperiatom]

Correction This road was a gift from the american people, but Santa came a dropped another gift from the american people and sadly the road is no-more. There is something distinctly two faced in helping somebody to build a road and then giving the other side the means to destroy it. Or is this standard american policy?

That's pretty standard American policy.

Ah Bringing freedom to the world and hate back home to america.

[Ralkovia]

I'd accept that challenge with exception to the bourekas(which are shit) and the Hamas flag. I'd be willing to wear a "Kiss Me, I'm a Jewish Leftist" shirt instead.

Not good enough. Fine, regular pita sandwich on passover, regular Palestinian flag, and you have to do it in Kiryat Arba instead.

No to the Palestinian flag. I'll eat the Pita. It'll give me a chance to visit Kahane park as well.

[New Rogernomics]

I have Armenian ancestry on my mothers side, some married into Palestinian Arab christian families; heard the horror stories i.e. what really happened during the Israeli war of independence. Don't hold grudges, it was war; though it was ironic that they fled one country i.e. Turkey, only to be forcibly evicted from another. Many Palestinians fled and resettled in Lebanon, and I still would have distant relatives in Lebanon.

[Calenhardon]

You don't seem to get it, do you. Let me explain lowly
That. Will. Never. Happen.
If Israel tried to expel the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, it would become a pariah state on the scale of North Korea. Not even the United States would support it after that. There may even be a call for regime change, and the establishment of a one-state solution, after a brief international occupation. In effect the hubris and overconfidence of the right wing expansionists would do more to destroy their own state than the Arab nations ever could.

Except, it wouldn't. There would be no occupation, because at this point only a western power could take out Israel. And Israel has nukes, and no one would risk that. Instead, people would likely cut off all trade with Israel and Israel would have 1 of 3 options. Cede to International Pressure or become an Internation pariah. There is a third option on the table as well. Cozy up to China and offer them everything military they could want. That would likely see the end of all the good grace Israel has in America however.

Unless, of course, something like the following scenario happens...
1) Israel annexes Palestinian territories
2) General Arab declaration of war
3) Turkey moves additional forces to borders, puts ships in Eastern Med.
4) Israel, fearing a Turkish surprise attack, preventively strikes Turkish forces.
5) Turkey invokes Article V of the North Atlantic Charter
-while the US and Germany would probably stand on the letter of the Charter and not actually declare war, other NATO states less fearful of Israeli and domestic political backlash might do so. However this would still mean a near-certain cut-off of Israel's military supplies from the US. And no military force, however superb, can fight very long without ammunition.

[DogDoo 7]

Not good enough. Fine, regular pita sandwich on passover, regular Palestinian flag, and you have to do it in Kiryat Arba instead.

No to the Palestinian flag. I'll eat the Pita. It'll give me a chance to visit Kahane park as well.

Then I'll just wear the kippah in Jordan and forego the Israel/US besties t-shirt. Makes it too easy.

[Ralkovia]

Except Israel under the Jews has prospered. Israel has become a technology super power pumping out medicine and technology.

Yeah no thanks to $115b of your US tax dollars whilst nothing to Palestine, not to mention the various economic blockades that the Palestinians have suffered from Israel. Its like watching Monty python play kick the beggar.

You do realize nearly all that money goes towards Israel buying weapons from America? It's literally just a subsidy to the American Arms companies. The fact of the matter is that it's not just the Palestinians, it's the entire Arab World in general. So if you honestly believe the Palestinians were going to magically become technology experts or produce medicine you'd be stupid. Fact of the matter is in terms of benefit to the World of technology and pushing the World forward you'd find yourself wanting Israel. That comes from cultural differences and emphasis on secularism and education that exist in Israel.

I honestly wonder though, Imperiatom, you being British(I assume) how East London is working out for you guys.

[Imperiatom]

Yeah no thanks to $115b of your US tax dollars whilst nothing to Palestine, not to mention the various economic blockades that the Palestinians have suffered from Israel. Its like watching Monty python play kick the beggar.

You do realize nearly all that money goes towards Israel buying weapons from America? It's literally just a subsidy to the American Arms companies. The fact of the matter is that it's not just the Palestinians, it's the entire Arab World in general. So if you honestly believe the Palestinians were going to magically become technology experts or produce medicine you'd be stupid. Fact of the matter is in terms of benefit to the World of technology and pushing the World forward you'd find yourself wanting Israel. That comes from cultural differences and emphasis on secularism and education that exist in Israel.

I honestly wonder though, Imperiatom, you being British(I assume) how East London is working out for you guys.

I don't know? i live in the country never been to the east end. I only go to the west end, Kensington or knightsbridge.

[Ralkovia]

Except, it wouldn't. There would be no occupation, because at this point only a western power could take out Israel. And Israel has nukes, and no one would risk that. Instead, people would likely cut off all trade with Israel and Israel would have 1 of 3 options. Cede to International Pressure or become an Internation pariah. There is a third option on the table as well. Cozy up to China and offer them everything military they could want. That would likely see the end of all the good grace Israel has in America however.

Unless, of course, something like the following scenario happens...
1) Israel annexes Palestinian territories
2) General Arab declaration of war
3) Turkey moves additional forces to borders, puts ships in Eastern Med.
4) Israel, fearing a Turkish surprise attack, preventively strikes Turkish forces.
5) Turkey invokes Article V of the North Atlantic Charter
-while the US and Germany would probably stand on the letter of the Charter and not actually declare war, other NATO states less fearful of Israeli and domestic political backlash might do so. However this would still mean a near-certain cut-off of Israel's military supplies from the US. And no military force, however superb, can fight very long without ammunition.

Turkey wouldn't move to declare war. It couldn't. Not without setting off the Kurds. Syria is in no position to fight and won't be for decades. Jordan wouldn't declare war either, not without fear of having their main water supply gone. And if they did, they'd find that their capital and most of their important cities are in range of Israeli planes. Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything but fund the war, because anything else might end up fucking with World Oil Prices too much. And Israel could shut down Egypt with a single attack on the Aswan Dam. As in, Egypt would be completely destroyed for ever.

There's a reason why the Arabs haven't declared war on Israel since '73.

[Imperiatom]

Unless, of course, something like the following scenario happens...
1) Israel annexes Palestinian territories
2) General Arab declaration of war
3) Turkey moves additional forces to borders, puts ships in Eastern Med.
4) Israel, fearing a Turkish surprise attack, preventively strikes Turkish forces.
5) Turkey invokes Article V of the North Atlantic Charter
-while the US and Germany would probably stand on the letter of the Charter and not actually declare war, other NATO states less fearful of Israeli and domestic political backlash might do so. However this would still mean a near-certain cut-off of Israel's military supplies from the US. And no military force, however superb, can fight very long without ammunition.

Turkey wouldn't move to declare war. It couldn't. Not without setting off the Kurds. Syria is in no position to fight and won't be for decades. Jordan wouldn't declare war either, not without fear of having their main water supply gone. And if they did, they'd find that their capital and most of their important cities are in range of Israeli planes. Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything but fund the war, because anything else might end up fucking with World Oil Prices too much. And Israel could shut down Egypt with a single attack on the Aswan Dam. As in, Egypt would be completely destroyed for ever.

There's a reason why the Arabs haven't declared war on Israel since '73.

Israel would not use nukes on the US that really would be reaping the whirlwind. it would stay conventional. if the US wanted it i doubt they would even fight. All the Arab nations would join in Britain too at the very least. Actually now i think about it sacrifice Israel and the middle east might like and co-operate with the US more, great bit of foreign policy.

[Souseiseki]

Er, what?

Basically, Sous wants Israel to die off as quick as possible and would like my analysis to be taken seriously by Washington. I agree to the latter part, the World would be amazing if it was run under an America whose foreign policy was dominated by me. First of all, Sweden would be our first target.

yep, that's me

"death to israel" -souseiseki (me)

[Souseiseki]

Source this bullshit right now.

I can give you better than that Yorkopolis. I'll even pay for the plane ticket for you. All you gotta do is get on the plane and fly into any of those arab countries and then step off the plane wearing a yarmulke and a white T-shirt with a huge flag of Israel on the front of it and a huge flag of the United States on the back of it. IF you survive it I'll have to eat crow and shut up about the arabs/palestinians. Deal?

i dunno man, being deliberately obnoxious and plastering yourself in the symbols of really unpopular states isn't going to go well in any country

Lesson of the story stick with the British empire!! Huzzar!!!.

If only.

Africa would be a lot better off if the British still retained control of it.

They could stop genociding each other over ethnicity and hate the Brits instead.

itt ralkovias continued support of colonialism (sorry progress, britain and france and belgium will spread civilization :-) )

[Hitlerobamanation]

Lesson of the story stick with the British empire!! Huzzar!!!.

If only.

Africa would be a lot better off if the British still retained control of it.

They could stop genociding each other over ethnicity and hate the Brits instead.

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

[Ralkovia]

Turkey wouldn't move to declare war. It couldn't. Not without setting off the Kurds. Syria is in no position to fight and won't be for decades. Jordan wouldn't declare war either, not without fear of having their main water supply gone. And if they did, they'd find that their capital and most of their important cities are in range of Israeli planes. Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything but fund the war, because anything else might end up fucking with World Oil Prices too much. And Israel could shut down Egypt with a single attack on the Aswan Dam. As in, Egypt would be completely destroyed for ever.

There's a reason why the Arabs haven't declared war on Israel since '73.

Israel would not use nukes on the US that really would be reaping the whirlwind. it would stay conventional. if the US wanted it i doubt they would even fight. All the Arab nations would join in Britain too at the very least. Actually now i think about it sacrifice Israel and the middle east might like and co-operate with the US more, great bit of foreign policy.

US wouldn't enter. Not only does AIPAC form a powerful lobby to block that but most Americans don't even want war with Iran. In a fight between Europe and Israel, Germany would be counted out. France might fight, but the chances of Europe being able to effectively attack Israel decrease dramatically when you realize that Israel could effectively intercept with a competent US armed air force. Britain likely wouldn't join either.

In reality, if Israel waits until the US becomes Oil Producer numero uno and and Israel becomes a powerful oil producer as well, the Arab governments will shut up quickly once they realize either of them could undercut oil profits and sink the market. I don't think you understand how much the Arabs depend on oil revenue to run their economy.

There is also a growing shift to the right in Europe. Muslim immigration and the Euro crisis have seen a spike in Nationalism and Anti-immigrant/Islam parties some of which are quite sympathetic to Israel. I'm sure even you were somewhat surprised with the growth in the UKIP party in the UK.

[Ralkovia]

If only.

Africa would be a lot better off if the British still retained control of it.

They could stop genociding each other over ethnicity and hate the Brits instead.

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

You lack an understanding of African History. Societal relations between groups were bad to begin with. Arab conquerors to the North had already begun expanding into and enslaving most of Northern Africa. A large number of the genocide so far has been Arabs/Muslims vs. Blacks.

Colonialism in reality likely brought closer communication to and the creation of actual urbanized cities in Africa. As much as you like to play white guilt and cry about colonialism, the fact of the matter is that the Tuareg have practiced slavery on their neighbors before colonialism and still continue to do so. And so on and so forth. Colonialism is a small factor in the over all "Fuck ton of things wrong with Africa." The first and foremost is the fact that colonialism was replaced by the corporation.

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

[Ralkovia]

Basically, Sous wants Israel to die off as quick as possible and would like my analysis to be taken seriously by Washington. I agree to the latter part, the World would be amazing if it was run under an America whose foreign policy was dominated by me. First of all, Sweden would be our first target.

yep, that's me

"death to israel" -souseiseki (me)

Nope. Death to Israel makes you sound bad. Deconstruction of Zionism sounds so much better.

[Costa Alegria]

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

You lack an understanding of African History. Societal relations between groups were bad to begin with. Arab conquerors to the North had already begun expanding into and enslaving most of Northern Africa. A large number of the genocide so far has been Arabs/Muslims vs. Blacks.

Colonialism in reality likely brought closer communication to and the creation of actual urbanized cities in Africa. As much as you like to play white guilt and cry about colonialism, the fact of the matter is that the Tuareg have practiced slavery on their neighbors before colonialism and still continue to do so. And so on and so forth. Colonialism is a small factor in the over all "Fuck ton of things wrong with Africa." The first and foremost is the fact that colonialism was replaced by the corporation.

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

Do you know anything about the Berbers?

[Ralkovia]

You lack an understanding of African History. Societal relations between groups were bad to begin with. Arab conquerors to the North had already begun expanding into and enslaving most of Northern Africa. A large number of the genocide so far has been Arabs/Muslims vs. Blacks.

Colonialism in reality likely brought closer communication to and the creation of actual urbanized cities in Africa. As much as you like to play white guilt and cry about colonialism, the fact of the matter is that the Tuareg have practiced slavery on their neighbors before colonialism and still continue to do so. And so on and so forth. Colonialism is a small factor in the over all "Fuck ton of things wrong with Africa." The first and foremost is the fact that colonialism was replaced by the corporation.

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

Do you know anything about the Berbers?

Yeah. But it's 4 AM here and going on about the complexity of Africa's situation is not something i want to do.

Plus I was hoping someone would mention leopold.

[Imperiatom]

If only.

Africa would be a lot better off if the British still retained control of it.

They could stop genociding each other over ethnicity and hate the Brits instead.

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

Yeah no war before the British empire and colonialism. oh wait no ever since records began they have recorded wars and conflict. Really the zulu's, the Benin empire the ancient Egyptian, the numidians, Ethiopian's, all big Waring nations before Europeans arrived that had conquered neighboring tribes. Actually as stated earlier it was the fact that instead of helping them develop we just totally fucked off like a rapist fleeing the crime seen due to liberal guilt that caused the problems. I might want to also add what do you think about the genocidal killings of the native american Indians, groups that until the revolution were treated by the crown as trade partners and allies for the most part?

[Imperiatom]

Israel would not use nukes on the US that really would be reaping the whirlwind. it would stay conventional. if the US wanted it i doubt they would even fight. All the Arab nations would join in Britain too at the very least. Actually now i think about it sacrifice Israel and the middle east might like and co-operate with the US more, great bit of foreign policy.

US wouldn't enter. Not only does AIPAC form a powerful lobby to block that but most Americans don't even want war with Iran. In a fight between Europe and Israel, Germany would be counted out. France might fight, but the chances of Europe being able to effectively attack Israel decrease dramatically when you realize that Israel could effectively intercept with a competent US armed air force. Britain likely wouldn't join either.

In reality, if Israel waits until the US becomes Oil Producer numero uno and and Israel becomes a powerful oil producer as well, the Arab governments will shut up quickly once they realize either of them could undercut oil profits and sink the market. I don't think you understand how much the Arabs depend on oil revenue to run their economy.

There is also a growing shift to the right in Europe. Muslim immigration and the Euro crisis have seen a spike in Nationalism and Anti-immigrant/Islam parties some of which are quite sympathetic to Israel. I'm sure even you were somewhat surprised with the growth in the UKIP party in the UK.

Not really i support ukip in some respect myself, The conservatives are not Conservative anymore, most ukip supporters are really Conservative's unhappy with DC big time for drifting to the center. The only difference between ukip and traditional conservatism is that Ukip want's us out of the political union with Europe, they are on the whole in favor of a free market or linked foreign policy but not political and monetary union. Its not a growth in the right wing more DC trying to do a tony Blair and move to the center so some have followed whilst the rest jointed ukip, its been coming for the last couple of years really. i was surprised it took so long if i am honest.

[Imperiatom]

You lack understanding of African history. Colonial control of African territories is responsible for most of the genocide that is or has taken place there by disrupting the previous societal relations between groups that had been living together peacefully before then.

You lack an understanding of African History. Societal relations between groups were bad to begin with. Arab conquerors to the North had already begun expanding into and enslaving most of Northern Africa. A large number of the genocide so far has been Arabs/Muslims vs. Blacks.

Colonialism in reality likely brought closer communication to and the creation of actual urbanized cities in Africa. As much as you like to play white guilt and cry about colonialism, the fact of the matter is that the Tuareg have practiced slavery on their neighbors before colonialism and still continue to do so. And so on and so forth. Colonialism is a small factor in the over all "Fuck ton of things wrong with Africa." The first and foremost is the fact that colonialism was replaced by the corporation.

A Colony had by side effect the improving of the life of the average person through the construction of infrastructure, availability of medicine, modern technology. A corporation doesn't need to do that. All it does is bribe and extract resources. No need to build or help anyone.

I agree with that, i might also add i believe in many respect the colonial era for Africa was for a long time one could argue the most peaceful time in its history. plus little involvement in ether ww in large scale warfare over the whole continent.

[Imperiatom]

yep, that's me

"death to israel" -souseiseki (me)

Nope. Death to Israel makes you sound bad. Deconstruction of Zionism sounds so much better.

Or even better "the second enlightenment" that sounds nice for all those liberal muppets.