Cloning humans

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Then it would be a slave army and an immoral idea.

Not to mention repeatedly done before.

This isn't a game, it's real life. Reality doesn't care about "playing out." Memes should tell you that.

[Bottle]

Ok, so you know the name, yay! And you were halfway there with naming the four nucleotides.

Next step:

Most people know that DNA is "the genetic code." What does it code for?

... Alright, I'll shut up about biology now.

Fair enough.

Let me explain why this is important. (Ignore the following if you aren't interested in a biology ramble.)

DNA codes for proteins. This is an extremely complex procedure that I'm not going to even attempt to describe here, but the important thing to keep in mind is that DNA is making proteins...and proteins are only one part of the great big glorious creature that is you.

Your genetic code has a tremendous impact, yes, and determines a fuckton of aspects of who you are. But there's also a fuckton of your Self that is not coded in your DNA. For an example of this, just befriend a set of identical twins...they began life as a single fertilized egg, and thus start out with identical DNA, yet they aren't carbon copies of one another. They usually don't really look identical once you get to know them and start noticing the differences, so think about that: even the shape of your nose or that mole on your arse aren't determined by DNA alone. Your memories, your favorite ice cream flavor, your aversion to bunny rabbits and their twitchy little noses...none of these are in your DNA, and no clone of yours would be automatically imprinted with them.

A clone is, at its most simple, just like an identical twin. No more or less similar to the original DNA "donor" than one twin is to another.

[Bottle]

Why would one presume that, and not presume it for clones?

Because a clone has not yet lived their own life and developed their own personalities and memories.

Neither has any other embryo or fetus.

If they are made to be basically brain dead from birth can they be considered 'people' ?

Are "natural" infants who are born brain dead considered to be people?

[Genivaria]

Because a clone has not yet lived their own life and developed their own personalities and memories.

Neither has any other embryo or fetus.

If they are made to be basically brain dead from birth can they be considered 'people' ?

Are "natural" infants who are born brain dead considered to be people?

I don't know, are they?

[Bottle]

Neither has any other embryo or fetus.

Are "natural" infants who are born brain dead considered to be people?

I don't know, are they?

My point is that you still haven't explained why cloned embryos/fetuses should be regarded any differently than other embryos/fetuses.

If brain activity is the criterion for personhood, then it would apply to clones as much as any other fetus. If it's not, then why apply it to clones?

[Yehuddah]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

[Bottle]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

Better tell my friends Matt and Stef that their son Bennett (conceived through IVF) is not human.

Although given Bennett's eating habits, they probably won't be all that surprised, now that I think about it.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

What is "natural?" I've never heard of such a thing. Or, at least, such a thing being valid.

[Genivaria]

I don't know, are they?

My point is that you still haven't explained why cloned embryos/fetuses should be regarded any differently than other embryos/fetuses.

If brain activity is the criterion for personhood, then it would apply to clones as much as any other fetus. If it's not, then why apply it to clones?

Yes it would, it was brought up because I asked about the possibility of making cloned human bodies that are not alive to use for research and medical purposes without needing to kill someone, to which Ostroeuropa said:

Presumably one could stunt brain growth if you hooked the clone up to life support.

If such a thing is not possible then I would considerate morally wrong to kill them just for research purposes, I would recognize clones as people which is why I condemn a clone army as slavery.

[Regnum Dominae]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

The natural order of things is irrelevant.

[Genivaria]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

The 'natural order of things' involve being eaten by lions while running around naked in on the African savannah.
There is nothing inherently good about being 'natural' and nothing inherently bad about being 'unnatural'.

[Bottle]

My point is that you still haven't explained why cloned embryos/fetuses should be regarded any differently than other embryos/fetuses.

If brain activity is the criterion for personhood, then it would apply to clones as much as any other fetus. If it's not, then why apply it to clones?

Yes it would, it was brought up because I asked about the possibility of making cloned human bodies that are not alive to use for research and medical purposes without needing to kill someone, to which Ostroeuropa said:

Presumably one could stunt brain growth if you hooked the clone up to life support.

If such a thing is not possible then I would considerate morally wrong to kill them just for research purposes, I would recognize clones as people which is why I condemn a clone army as slavery.

The thing is, there's no need for cloning to do what you describe. You could use any IVF embryo for the same purposes you are talking about. Cloning is irrelevant.

[Genivaria]

Yes it would, it was brought up because I asked about the possibility of making cloned human bodies that are not alive to use for research and medical purposes without needing to kill someone, to which Ostroeuropa said:

If such a thing is not possible then I would considerate morally wrong to kill them just for research purposes, I would recognize clones as people which is why I condemn a clone army as slavery.

The thing is, there's no need for cloning to do what you describe. You could use any IVF embryo for the same purposes you are talking about. Cloning is irrelevant.

*beat*
Oh really? Do tell.

[Khadgar]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

Nature has spent the past 10,000 years trying to wipe our species out. Fuck nature.

[Yehuddah]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

The 'natural order of things' involve being eaten by lions while running around naked in on the African savannah.
There is nothing inherently good about being 'natural' and nothing inherently bad about being 'unnatural'.

No. I don't mean being naked and running in savvnahs being eaten by lions.
You know what I mean, there are things, which science need to stay out.

[Sidhae]

Genetically-engineered slaves and soldiers sound fun. That would, unfortunately, require a lot more than simple cloning.

The current issue with clones is that their short lifespan. The DNA of living creatures is held together from unwrapping by telomeres, which shorten every time a cell divides, until eventually they are no more and the DNA double helix unwraps, destroying the cell.

A cloned creature's DNA is that of an adult being, one that has already undergone many divisions, and undergoes even more as the infant clone grows to adult size. Even though the clone may be biologically young, it is genetically old and thus has a very short lifespan compared to a naturally born creature.

Embryonic cloning, achieved by splitting early-stage embryos when they are still just a ball of undifferentiated stem cells, however, is a whole different thing. It could redefine what it means to be a human along with the development of advanced cyber-augmentations.

[Yehuddah]

Completely banned in all cases.
What is a human? Is a human a creature made in a lab? No.
This is not the natural order of things.

Nature has spent the past 10,000 years trying to wipe our species out. Fuck nature.

Think about it, would YOU want to know that you were made in a lab?!
I guess no, unless you are a very odd person.

[Genivaria]

The 'natural order of things' involve being eaten by lions while running around naked in on the African savannah.
There is nothing inherently good about being 'natural' and nothing inherently bad about being 'unnatural'.

No. I don't mean being naked and running in savvnahs being eaten by lions.
You know what I mean, there are things, which science need to stay out.

No I have no idea what you mean, other then fear-mongering and making Science out to be some reckless fiend which seeks to create the Frankenstein monster.

[Regnum Dominae]

The 'natural order of things' involve being eaten by lions while running around naked in on the African savannah.
There is nothing inherently good about being 'natural' and nothing inherently bad about being 'unnatural'.

No. I don't mean being naked and running in savvnahs being eaten by lions.
You know what I mean, there are things, which science need to stay out.

No, there are not.

Science should be all-encompassing.

[Khadgar]

Nature has spent the past 10,000 years trying to wipe our species out. Fuck nature.

Think about it, would YOU want to know that you were made in a lab?!
I guess no, unless you are a very odd person.

Were I held to the whims of nature, I'd be dead. Fuck nature.

[YellowApple]

Yes it would, it was brought up because I asked about the possibility of making cloned human bodies that are not alive to use for research and medical purposes without needing to kill someone, to which Ostroeuropa said:

If such a thing is not possible then I would considerate morally wrong to kill them just for research purposes, I would recognize clones as people which is why I condemn a clone army as slavery.

The thing is, there's no need for cloning to do what you describe. You could use any IVF embryo for the same purposes you are talking about. Cloning is irrelevant.

I think it's the context of adult clones that Gen is talking about (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong); use of said clones to provide replacement organs is one of the proposed medical uses of cloning.

[Genivaria]

Nature has spent the past 10,000 years trying to wipe our species out. Fuck nature.

Think about it, would YOU want to know that you were made in a lab?!
I guess no, unless you are a very odd person.

Really? Here I thought you would LOVE knowing you were intelligently designed.

[Regnum Dominae]

Think about it, would YOU want to know that you were made in a lab?!
I guess no, unless you are a very odd person.

Really? Here I thought you would LOVE knowing you were intelligently designed.

This is going in Epic Quotes.

[Khadgar]

The thing is, there's no need for cloning to do what you describe. You could use any IVF embryo for the same purposes you are talking about. Cloning is irrelevant.

I think it's the context of adult clones that Gen is talking about (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong); use of said clones to provide replacement organs is one of the proposed medical uses of cloning.

Take forever to grow a set of organs like that. Better to just grow the organs. You can either 3d print them, or you can take dead organs, wash off all the cells, and grow new on the protein scaffold. Neither are mature technologies, but they're less ethically dubious.

[Yehuddah]

No. I don't mean being naked and running in savvnahs being eaten by lions.
You know what I mean, there are things, which science need to stay out.

No I have no idea what you mean, other then fear-mongering and making Science out to be some reckless fiend which seeks to create the Frankenstein monster.

Sadly, making Frankenstein's monster or the Golem of Prague is one of the things science want to do.

Did you hear about them want to recreate the neanderthal man? A creature with reason that is not human? Or the people who make robots that have artificial intelligence?
This won't end up good. Those unethicall scientists need to stop.
Science is supposed to be helping us, not to cause our ultimate destruction.