Transhumanism

[AETEN II]

Anyone who stands in the way of transhumanism and attempts to stop it is threatening the very future of humanity, and thus must be eliminated. It's harsh, but it's ignoring the fact that the human AI still retains its humanity, while sacrificing its flesh for a superior form.

I will stand in the way of it and if your movement loses, you and your ilk aren't ever coming back.

Except that it will be backed by government and corporations wishing to make a profit. I'll just stay out of Somalia and the Middle East.

[Conserative Morality]

That argument can justify anything and thus, justifies nothing.
Declaring actions inhumane is a non-argument.

Not any more than declaring actions immoral.

[Invering]

(tl:dr)

I support the concept of transhumanism, but there's one aspect of it that I don't want anything to do with: The mind. Integrating cybernetic enhancements with existing limbs, sure; providing augmented senses, awesome; extending life, yes please, like, right now please; but anything that involves placing hardware, software, wetware or really anything foreign in my brain... no thank you. An exception might be... no, never mind that. It would take a lot to convince me to trust tech going up there. At the other end of the nervous system though - nerve endings and such - sure.

Also, a certain interesting piece of tech to add to the conversation (if it hasn't been mentioned) is bioprinting. The technology is young at the moment, but they've already put prototypes to use printing blood vessels and cardiac tissue, as well as tooth implants and hip bone replacements which have been tested on animals (again, the tech is still young, but these are pretty significant milestones.)

"The potential to use bioprinters to repair our bodies in situ is pretty mind blowing. In perhaps no more than a few decades it may be possible for robotic surgical arms tipped with bioprint heads to enter the body, repair damage at the cellular level, and then also repair their point of entry on their way out. Patients would still need to rest and recuperate for a few days as bioprinted materials fully fused into mature living tissue. However, most patients could potentially recover from very major surgery in less than a week."

"As well as allowing keyhole bioprinters to repair organs inside a patient during an operation, in situ bioprinting could also have cosmetic applications. For example, face printers may be created. These would evaporate existing flesh and simultaneously replace it with new cells to exact patient specification. People could therefore download a face scan from the Internet and have it applied to themselves. Alternatively, some teenagers may have their own face scanned, and then reapplied every few years to achieve apparent perpetual youth."

Source: http://www.explainingthefuture.com/bioprinting.html

That segment referring to the cosmetic applications of bioprinting interested me, but not because of the scenario it presented. It interested me because of the extent of potential use for this technology beyond its currently intended function as a medical tool. What if we could 'reprint' existing physiological structures to improve or specialize them, or even add previously nonexistent aspects to our forms, for either practical or aesthetic purposes? I'll leave it at that, lest I keep rambling on and on.

Another article: http://www.cnbc.com/id/49348354
Video on bioprinting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80DhBLEhdzk

[Ostroeuropa]

No, they will have evolved to a higher, superior form of life greater than humans, as fitting the Greater Good.

Anyone who promotes transhumanism threatens the future of humanity and must be eliminated. Anyone who sacrifices their flesh and embraces a mechanical form is no human. They are a threat, and should be put down as threats are.

Your path is going to lead to violence and strife. Mark my words pal, mark my words.

Only if those opposed to transhumanism initiate it.

[AETEN II]

No, they will have evolved to a higher, superior form of life greater than humans, as fitting the Greater Good.

Anyone who promotes transhumanism threatens the future of humanity and must be eliminated. Anyone who sacrifices their flesh and embraces a mechanical form is no human. They are a threat, and should be put down as threats are.

Your path is going to lead to violence and strife. Mark my words pal, mark my words.

Of course they're not human, they're homo neo. New Human. A better species, and a far worthier, stronger successor that fulfills the Greater Good.

And no malice will be caused, unless those with strangely violent behavior try to stop it.

[Trollgaard]

I will stand in the way of it and if your movement loses, you and your ilk aren't ever coming back.

Except that it will be backed by government and corporations wishing to make a profit. I'll just stay out of Somalia and the Middle East.

Eh, I'll make my bed with religious right if comes down to it. They will in no way shape or form sit idly by and allow transhumanism to progress. And neither will I. You are playing with fire, and will get burned.

[Ostroeuropa]

Except that it will be backed by government and corporations wishing to make a profit. I'll just stay out of Somalia and the Middle East.

Eh, I'll make my bed with religious right if comes down to it. They will in no way shape or form sit idly by and allow transhumanism to progress. And neither will I. You are playing with fire, and will get burned.

It's already progressing.

[Trollgaard]

Anyone who promotes transhumanism threatens the future of humanity and must be eliminated. Anyone who sacrifices their flesh and embraces a mechanical form is no human. They are a threat, and should be put down as threats are.

Your path is going to lead to violence and strife. Mark my words pal, mark my words.

Of course they're not human, they're homo neo. New Human. A better species, and a far worthier, stronger successor that fulfills the Greater Good.

And no malice will be caused, unless those with strangely violent behavior try to stop it.

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

[AETEN II]

Of course they're not human, they're homo neo. New Human. A better species, and a far worthier, stronger successor that fulfills the Greater Good.

And no malice will be caused, unless those with strangely violent behavior try to stop it.

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Also, two species can perfectly coexist. Full-blown human AI's would consume little resources and instead be more focused on energy. It's not that you have two creatures competing for the same niche, one would be creating a whole new one and filling it.

[Norstal]

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Do you want the world to turn into Blade Runner or something?

[Imperial--japan]

Yes. Yes Yes yes.

[Atnae]

Except that it will be backed by government and corporations wishing to make a profit. I'll just stay out of Somalia and the Middle East.

Eh, I'll make my bed with religious right if comes down to it. They will in no way shape or form sit idly by and allow transhumanism to progress. And neither will I. You are playing with fire, and will get burned.

Because as we all know, if something is in the slightest bit risky it's better off not being done.

On another note, as long as the process (to do whatever) is done correctly, the person(?) who has had the process undertaken on them should be given free healthcare in the form of a loaded revolver which can only be shot at themselves. I think this clears up the vast majority of problems that could arise.

[Ostroeuropa]

Of course they're not human, they're homo neo. New Human. A better species, and a far worthier, stronger successor that fulfills the Greater Good.

And no malice will be caused, unless those with strangely violent behavior try to stop it.

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

At some point, the pre-transcendence humans won't really pose any threat to the post-transcendent humans. They can be quietly ignored while they try to smash the new bodies in vain, either because of the strength of the material, or the nature of it being immaterial.

[Atnae]

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Do you want the world to turn into Blade Runner or something?

I think a reference to gattaca would be more fitting.

[Trollgaard]

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Also, two species can perfectly coexist. Full-blown human AI's would consume little resources and instead be more focused on energy. It's not that you have two creatures competing for the same niche, one would be creating a whole new one and filling it.

Each species would see the other as a threat.

[AETEN II]

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Do you want the world to turn into Blade Runner or something?

No, the point is that there wouldn't be a 'ZOMGZ WAR BETWEEN SPECIES', as it'd go down the pyramid. I'd also highly doubt any conflict (except with your usual uber-conservatives), as the cyborgs would make their own niche and fill it. Later on, with full-blown AI's, they would really make their own niche, as they'd only consume power, and no resources like food.

[Conserative Morality]

Any particular reason, or just a feeling your viewpoint is the better one?

Just a feeling that my viewpoint is the better one.

I tend to forget how much we have in common with Homo Sapiens 50,000 years ago. We could sit down with one if we had a time machine and new the lingo, and there would be an instant understanding because how people think of themselves and the species and "humanity" has never changed. And that all philosophers, scientists and the like agree there is but a single, definitive, irreducible thing known as the human condition.

You seem to think that I perceive the human condition as a point rather than an area.

Divorce yourself from this idea.

Ignoring of course the fact a lot of transhumanists think transhumanism taking as far as it can go is very much in the spirit of the human condition. I think you need to accept no one has a monopoly on the concept, and you aren't arguing from an objective position, much like no one is on the subject.

Where in the world did I claim I was arguing from an objective position?

Dare I ask if you have a reason for why, lets say 80-100 years is the optimal life span? With the first few spent in a fairly non-conscious state and the last couple of decades usually spent in a state of increasing degeneration of mental and physical degeneration?

Or will it be another "because it is how it is"?

Those early years are important, and mental degeneration is something that's constantly being combated.

Are you saying it is unlikely our brain has undergone any evolutionary change in that time frame? I mean he can show we are taller and our digestive system has some slight differences - we are what we eat and all that.

Some of us have changed digestive systems. Hardly all. We're taller because we generally eat better. It's unlikely that our brain has went through significant evolutionary changes in this time period.

Did I say it was?

You're a transhumanist, so yes.

You haven't given much reason though why it isn't a path to go.

I've given the reason several times now.

Or a valid path for those that want it while those that don't dont.

Why would I offer them advice?

Oh really? Because? You have no control over being born as a human, or where, or when. You just are, you give your life purpose, nothing much else does. If you were born a hundred thousand years from now to some post human it would be just as much the same.

Because I value who and what I am.

Because? So I'll take it in the extremely unlikely chance an advanced alien species wanders by you'll be hear telling us we have nothing at all to learn from them.

Perhaps some hard sciences. Otherwise, yes, that's exactly what I'll be saying.

Since you don't have a monopoly on what the human condition is or how others have to view it that doesn't really mean much.

And even if you did - so what? How dreadful, people filled with curiosity and drive and ambition driving off into unknown frontiers not appreciating the human condition.

How wonderful, people destroying ambition and work and humanity itself because they aren't satisfied with who they are.

Microleval is individual traits, or all the traits viewed as traits. Macroleval is the sum of all of them. If you want to tell me the majority of the details of you as a person are completely unchanged then I'll look at you doubtfully.

As a person, I have changed. As a human being, I have not.

Proof?

You really think you experience things the same when all of your senses and methods of interaction have been altered?

[Trollgaard]

That is a goddamned lie and you know it. Two species will not coexist. There will be violence. And I'll be goddamned if I allow Homo Sapiens position at the top be threatened by the likes of you and your fellow deluded fools.

At some point, the pre-transcendence humans won't really pose any threat to the post-transcendent humans. They can be quietly ignored while they try to smash the new bodies in vain, either because of the strength of the material, or the nature of it being immaterial.

Perhaps at some point, but who says that pure humans won't act before then?

[Conserative Morality]

Eh, I'll make my bed with religious right if comes down to it. They will in no way shape or form sit idly by and allow transhumanism to progress. And neither will I. You are playing with fire, and will get burned.

I'm afraid I'm with you here. I'd sooner see the world in flames and rise up under the cross or the crescent than see humanity destroyed.

[Rainbows and Rivers]

Anyone who stands in the way of transhumanism and attempts to stop it is threatening the very future of humanity, and thus must be eliminated. It's harsh, but it's ignoring the fact that the human AI still retains its humanity, while sacrificing its flesh for a superior form.

I will stand in the way of it and if your movement loses, you and your ilk aren't ever coming back.

Yes, because no one is ever going to want to be stronger, smarter, and live longer.

Clearly.

[Norstal]

Then wanting a shiny metal ass can be just a matter of aesthetics.

A shiny metal ass isn't human.

It's not necessary for one wanting a shiny metal ass to think "gee, I want to be a tiger today." Conversely, someone who wants to bodypaint themselves with tiger stripes can think "I really want to be a tiger and I will act like one". What is the difference then? Why is the first worst than the latter?

Oh no, don't get me wrong. The latter is really, truly terrible.

Just because they don't look like human, doesn't mean they stopped being humans. Moreover, someone who looks human may not be human on the inside (although we would still consider them a person by default).

I would argue that the moment they willingly gave up their body simply for the purpose of escaping their own humanity, they've stopped being humans.

But how is getting a metal ass different than trying on makeup to look like an impossible human being?

To me both are the same: they're just aesthetics. Trying to be a human that cannot possibly exist is the same trying to be a human with metal parts. So if a human with a metal ass isn't a human, then a human who looks just impossibly good or has a perfect life like Jesus, cannot be human either.

[Conserative Morality]

Accept that they'd be stronger and have better backing. Anyone with a sense of capitalism would see profit in this, which would be the ironic protection of it. America, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Especially, as stated before, the elites would have it first, before the price went down and it became available to the rest.

Also, two species can perfectly coexist. Full-blown human AI's would consume little resources and instead be more focused on energy. It's not that you have two creatures competing for the same niche, one would be creating a whole new one and filling it.

Democracies are driven by fear, and mass action. Capitalism is weak before it.

[Trollgaard]

Eh, I'll make my bed with religious right if comes down to it. They will in no way shape or form sit idly by and allow transhumanism to progress. And neither will I. You are playing with fire, and will get burned.

I'm afraid I'm with you here. I'd sooner see the world in flames and rise up under the cross or the crescent than see humanity destroyed.

Damn straight.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Anyone who stands in the way of transhumanism and attempts to stop it is threatening the very future of humanity, and thus must be eliminated. It's harsh, but it's ignoring the fact that the human AI still retains its humanity, while sacrificing its flesh for a superior form.

I will stand in the way of it and if your movement loses, you and your ilk aren't ever coming back.

Because killing ideals and ideas has certainly proven easy to do over the spread of human history.

There has been proto-transhumanist stuff through philosophy and myth since forever, about people improving themselves etc. Course they are largely techno-pessamistic, understandable since "casting of chains and everyone becoming as smart and strong as any king" naturally kind of challanges the social order.

Shame you are against people having the freedom to control their lives. And I trust you'll never accept an artificial organ in the event of an accident or illness once they become available? Sure, you're only getting it out of need, but the trend is for that new heart or kidney to be better than the original.

It wouldn't be fucking giving up, it'd be the advancement, or even evolution into a species, superior to man, virtually immune to extinction, and would ensure our survival. It's not weakness, it's the ultimate achievable form of life. Turning yourself into a creature that is immune to disease, age, infection, and most injuries would make you superior to basic Homo sapiens.

Not at all. It takes strength to accept oneself and one's flaws; weakness to deny them.

Far greater to not only accept them, but to do what it takes to overcome them. You're all about humanity wallowing in its flaws. "I need these flaws to have purpose, to be a human. If I defeat them permanently then apparently I'm actually denying them".

And what if instead of accepting or denying them I press a button and make it so that I don't have them anymore?

You haven't learned anything then.

Depends on the flaws. Are we talking physical flaws? Are the theoretical parents from popular media who decide to give their kid gene therapy so they don't suffer X, Y, Z genetic ailments weak? Or the kid since it wont have asthma or a genetic tendency towards certain type of cancers?

Or what of the paranoid schizophrenic who, in a lucid time decided to permanently correct their condition through a simple, safe procedure? Weak for not deciding to battle the ups and downs for the rest of their lives?

No, they will have evolved to a higher, superior form of life greater than humans, as fitting the Greater Good.

Anyone who promotes transhumanism threatens the future of humanity and must be eliminated. Anyone who sacrifices their flesh and embraces a mechanical form is no human. They are a threat, and should be put down as threats are.

Your path is going to lead to violence and strife. Mark my words pal, mark my words.

I'm sure we all appreciate your lounge chair general assurances you'll stomp on our rights and kill people who you think threaten you and humanity, despite your lack of proof of such.

I will stand in the way of it and if your movement loses, you and your ilk aren't ever coming back.

I seriously doubt it.
Transhumanists only have to win once.
You have to win every time.
Progress is funny like that.

Maybe they'll upload themselves into a Matrix like setting where they can pretend their anti-progress wars were the best things ever for humanity and they are worshiped as heroes because they put down people who wanted to run faster or get a chip to make them better at math or because they thought it would be cool to get some aesthetic augmentation, like colour changing skin.

[Norstal]

Do you want the world to turn into Blade Runner or something?

No, the point is that there wouldn't be a 'ZOMGZ WAR BETWEEN SPECIES', as it'd go down the pyramid. I'd also highly doubt any conflict (except with your usual uber-conservatives), as the cyborgs would make their own niche and fill it. Later on, with full-blown AI's, they would really make their own niche, as they'd only consume power, and no resources like food.

....You realize that food consumption is more efficient than raw power consumption, right?