Transhumanism

[Rainbows and Rivers]

No, you're missing the point. Let's say that I wanted to read a thousand book because I wanted to, not because of my mortality. The added extra, if you will, of the fact that I will die, would give me extra impetus to read these books which would not exist if you were immortal.

Why do you need the extra impetus? If you want to read the books, read the books. If you don't want to read the books, don't.

If you can't be motivated to do things unless there is some external circumstance forcing you to, maybe these things aren't worth doing.

[AETEN II]

I'll leave the rest of your post to TP to respond to you but for this particular point I have a hypothetical for you, Imagine a society where without fail once every month, you didn't know which day, but without fail you get hit on the head with a very large stick. this happens to every single person within the society and they all find it very painful. Imagine in such a society their were philosophers who waxed lyrical about how the whacking upon the head once a month taught every one valuable lessons in life and lent perspective. This is exactly the current attitude to death. And what we think about the head whacking society right now would be how a post death society would see us. It is nothing more than a horrible limit placed upon us by our biology.

Nothing more horrible? Oh give me a break.

That is how it is for every living thing on this planet. They are born, grow up, and die. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can give up your fantasies and start living.

This is the key point. Transhumanists are scared of death, which to be fair is fine, but they let that fear ruin their lives and make them miserable by making them incapable enjoying life because they are afraid of live ending. They are too afraid and bitter, and ungrateful, I suppose, to enjoy their time living.

Relax, have a cig, drink a beer, and get a date. Go out with friends and family. That is what life is about, as life is finite, enjoy it while is here.

This is my sense of all the various transhumanism bs I've looked at online.

Except that we are actually researching the technology to cheat death right now, including various labs funded by the government, in both biological and mechanical means. We will ascend, this is inevitable, it's simply a matter of time.

And the point being about humans is that we have the technological capability to do this, unlike other animals, and therefore we should, as it fufills the ultimate goal of survival.

Also, if you believed it was so impossible, then why does it terrify you? I personally enjoy the idea of us assimilated into an undying civilization spreading out across space, driven by a collective hive mind encompassing all of humanity.

[Conserative Morality]

Plenty of religious people seem to regard life as having value, despite believing it to be infinite and perpetual.

Then why is it that every Church I've ever went to eventually involves sermons talking about how wonderful it is that actual human life will end in a relatively brief span of time and they'll be with their Father in heaven?

Yeah yeah, anecdotes are not data, I know.

[Vetalia]

To be in favor of cancer research because of fear of cancer doesn't mean I devote my life to it, nor that much time to it.
Doubtless, if a vaccine were discovered i'd quickly go get one.
Otherwise, it really doesn't effect my day to day life.

It's the same as transhumanism.

No it's not, because transhumanism wants to be more than human...increased longevity is a long-standing goal, but in the end when you die you are still a human regardless of your status in life. And that sense of superiority is what makes it so dangerous.

[Britannic Realms]

As far as I am aware, issues such as world hunger cannot be solved by having several thousand Hagia Sofias. You're avoiding the point of his argument.

If there were demand for several thousand Hagia Sofias, I don't see the problem.

Having several thousand of them would devalue them. Therefore, it would be not worth going to see it because the Hagia Sofia would be so common, it would just be like visiting a generic church.

[Ostroeuropa]

Nothing more horrible? Oh give me a break.

That is how it is for every living thing on this planet. They are born, grow up, and die. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can give up your fantasies and start living.

This is the key point. Transhumanists are scared of death, which to be fair is fine, but they let that fear ruin their lives and make them miserable by making them incapable enjoying life because they are afraid of live ending. They are too afraid and bitter, and ungrateful, I suppose, to enjoy their time living.

Relax, have a cig, drink a beer, and get a date. Go out with friends and family. That is what life is about, as life is finite, enjoy it while is here.

This is my sense of all the various transhumanism bs I've looked at online.

Except that we are actually researching the technology to cheat death right now, including various labs funded by the government, in both biological and mechanical means. We will ascend, this is inevitable, it's simply a matter of time.

And the point being about humans is that we have the technological capability to do this, unlike other animals, and therefore we should, as it fufills the ultimate goal of survival.

Also, if you believed it was so impossible, then why does it terrify you? I personally enjoy the idea of us assimilated into an undying civilization spreading out across space, driven by a collective hive mind encompassing all of humanity.

Fuck the hive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDiZefRj78g

[Conserative Morality]

Not really. I wish for "immortality" because it will allow me to fulfill all my ambitions however small they may be, and then go and find some new ones! I just dislike time constraints. And death is one big time constraint!

You wish to be freed from the burden of ambition and instead take up hedonism. There's a difference, you know.

[Rainbows and Rivers]

There is the same amount of individuals on each side. The societies are the same morally so far as you're concerned. One of our dimensions is going to collapse. You choose.

While I find the situation to be ludicrously unlikely in that case I might decide to be selfish and choose my own dimension to survive.

Under different circumstances, I might choose theirs.

[Ostroeuropa]

Plenty of religious people seem to regard life as having value, despite believing it to be infinite and perpetual.

Then why is it that every Church I've ever went to eventually involves sermons talking about how wonderful it is that actual human life will end in a relatively brief span of time and they'll be with their Father in heaven?

Yeah yeah, anecdotes are not data, I know.

It's the same noises you are making in my opinion.
How wonderful that we die etc.

Transhumanists just say "Actually, it's fucking stupid and doesn't need to happen."

But like I said, we've already thrown the soul in under "Life" for our purposes.

[Conserative Morality]

Then each Portrait would be as pleasing, each Canyon as grand (think about it- in PA, we have tons of state parks. But each forest is still impressive), and each Hagia Sofia as religious.
IMO, Every church should look like Hagia Sofia, or at least be gothic.

Not nearly so. When there were but a handful of cities with 20,000 people in them, all were impressive. Now that they're a dime a dozen, we don't look twice at them.

[Olivaero]

I'll leave the rest of your post to TP to respond to you but for this particular point I have a hypothetical for you, Imagine a society where without fail once every month, you didn't know which day, but without fail you get hit on the head with a very large stick. this happens to every single person within the society and they all find it very painful. Imagine in such a society their were philosophers who waxed lyrical about how the whacking upon the head once a month taught every one valuable lessons in life and lent perspective. This is exactly the current attitude to death. And what we think about the head whacking society right now would be how a post death society would see us. It is nothing more than a horrible limit placed upon us by our biology.

Nothing more horrible? Oh give me a break.

That is how it is for every living thing on this planet. They are born, grow up, and die. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can give up your fantasies and start living.

This is the key point. Transhumanists are scared of death, which to be fair is fine, but they let that fear ruin their lives and make them miserable by making them incapable enjoying life because they are afraid of live ending. They are too afraid and bitter, and ungrateful, I suppose, to enjoy their time living.

Relax, have a cig, drink a beer, and get a date. Go out with friends and family. That is what life is about, as life is finite, enjoy it while is here.

This is my sense of all the various transhumanism bs I've looked at online.

It does not have to be this way. It's funny, I'm currently Doing Comp Sci at university and I have long ago accepted that I will most likely die some day, but that does not mean I shouldn't try and do something about it, I consider doing research into AI that something I have to offer, I can still lead a life around this you know... being a trans humanist does make me an automatic shut in as I regularly do all those things you just mentioned, we just don't just lay back and accept our fate. I'm willing to admit I don't want to die I think your charicterisation of me as bitter is a bit unfair though I'm sure I've been ungrateful in my time, I very much enjoy living though... apparently more so than you because I consider it valuable enough to do something about.

[AETEN II]

If there were demand for several thousand Hagia Sofias, I don't see the problem.

Having several thousand of them would devalue them. Therefore, it would be not worth going to see it because the Hagia Sofia would be so common, it would just be like visiting a generic church.

Except that we all are impressed by Skyscrapers.

Then again, this is likely because I am largely amoral, have a burning sense of Greater Good, and view time on a different scale than most.

[Conserative Morality]

Then I have to ask, why do you bother eating.
Surely, by deciding not to take part in any action to extend your life, the value of your remaining hours would increase immensely, and make you appreciate them all the more.

Didn't I just say that a shorter life is not more meaningful because of the lessened possibility for experience of the human condition?

[Conserative Morality]

While I find the situation to be ludicrously unlikely in that case I might decide to be selfish and choose my own dimension to survive.

Under different circumstances, I might choose theirs.

It's a thought experiment. Roll with it. Let's say you'll survive in either case, and your close friends and family.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then I have to ask, why do you bother eating.
Surely, by deciding not to take part in any action to extend your life, the value of your remaining hours would increase immensely, and make you appreciate them all the more.

Didn't I just say that a shorter life is not more meaningful because of the lessened possibility for experience of the human condition?

Then your argument seems woefully incoherent and inconsistent.
We're not arguing for immortality, just massively increased lifespan

[Rainbows and Rivers]

If there were demand for several thousand Hagia Sofias, I don't see the problem.

Having several thousand of them would devalue them. Therefore, it would be not worth going to see it because the Hagia Sofia would be so common, it would just be like visiting a generic church.

Yes, but if someone wants to go out and build a duplicate of Hagia Sofia right now, no one will stop them. Nor should they.

[Talonis]

Ahh, I see. And so again, do we therefore have to simply erase civilization?
Also, the Atom Bomb was a life-saving device, and a requisite. See the thread about it.

No?

I don't see how rejecting the atomic bomb as a biological process has anything to do with rejecting the use of augmentation.

I'm an anti-transhumanist, not a luddite.

Well spoken, but that wasn't a yes or no question per se, it was a short answer question. I was saying, farming is use of machines to help people scavenge, the Da Vinci robot can help perform surgeries, etc. etc. and so should we eliminate all these aspects of civilization because they aren't natural, but machines?

[Conserative Morality]

It's the same noises you are making in my opinion.
How wonderful that we die etc.

Transhumanists just say "Actually, it's fucking stupid and doesn't need to happen."

But like I said, we've already thrown the soul in under "Life" for our purposes.

I don't think it's wonderful. I think it's necessary. I don't think individuals dying is anything good, and I certainly am not looking forward to the prospect. I don't find that death is anything one should be speeding towards. But death lends poignancy and appreciation to life, and shapes much of human thought and society.

[AETEN II]

Didn't I just say that a shorter life is not more meaningful because of the lessened possibility for experience of the human condition?

Then your argument seems woefully incoherent and inconsistent.
We're not arguing for immortality, just massively increased lifespan

You would be immortal if completely assimilated. You wouldn't be indestructible though. Fuck up and fall off a cliff and you're still a goner, metal or flesh.

However, even if immortality wasn't immediate available, you could artificially extend your life to the point you would live long enough for it to become available, via augmentation.

[Britannic Realms]

We're not arguing for immortality, just massively increased lifespan

In that case, the threat of mortality will still hang over you, giving you the drive to do the things you want to do. Therefore, giving life a purpose.

[Rainbows and Rivers]

While I find the situation to be ludicrously unlikely in that case I might decide to be selfish and choose my own dimension to survive.

Under different circumstances, I might choose theirs.

It's a thought experiment. Roll with it. Let's say you'll survive in either case, and your close friends and family.

Interesting question.

Flip a coin, I suppose.

[Conserative Morality]

Then your argument seems woefully incoherent and inconsistent.
We're not arguing for immortality, just massively increased lifespan

No, some people in here have certainly been arguing for immortality.

[Conserative Morality]

Well spoken, but that wasn't a yes or no question per se, it was a short answer question. I was saying, farming is use of machines to help people scavenge, the Da Vinci robot can help perform surgeries, etc. etc. and so should we eliminate all these aspects of civilization because they aren't natural, but machines?

No, of course not. The issue is not using machines, the issue is replacing oneself with machines.

[Olivaero]

Not really. I wish for "immortality" because it will allow me to fulfill all my ambitions however small they may be, and then go and find some new ones! I just dislike time constraints. And death is one big time constraint!

You wish to be freed from the burden of ambition and instead take up hedonism. There's a difference, you know.

And is the difference particularly meaningful if I could do both? having so much time on ones hands of course.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's the same noises you are making in my opinion.
How wonderful that we die etc.

Transhumanists just say "Actually, it's fucking stupid and doesn't need to happen."

But like I said, we've already thrown the soul in under "Life" for our purposes.

I don't think it's wonderful. I think it's necessary. I don't think individuals dying is anything good, and I certainly am not looking forward to the prospect. I don't find that death is anything one should be speeding towards. But death lends poignancy and appreciation to life, and shapes much of human thought and society.

Assuming we were immortal, it would lead just as much poignancy to point out quite rightly, that the ultimate fate of the universe is to die, and nothing can last forever etc.
The know that your death will come with the end of all things etc, and that you and your comrades will be there at the end fighting in vain against a foe you know you won't beat for just a few more moments as the last lights go out is incredibly poignant.
It's in our battle against death that we find poignancy, and you're proposing to let it off easy.
No.
Make it struggle to get us.