Transhumanism

[Ostroeuropa]

So? If you wanted to go so far that you become something else, why should I care?

Why wouldn't you care? Do you ascribe no value to humanity?

To cast aside one's humanity is an act that strikes me beyond words. It chills my very bones.

That entirely depends on how you define your humanity.
I find it in my capacity for rationality, and my sense of justice etc.

None of that is rendered asunder by the adoption of a robotic body or becoming a purely conceptual entity.

As an example of this, can a fictional character be humane?
Can it display humanity?

etc.

[Conserative Morality]

It already does that through the arts of marketing and shiny lights. I don't see how that's any different with what we have now. Sure we're not cutting off limbs yet, but the change in thinking is there.

Does it? Are we in the search to replace ourselves for inefficiency? Perhaps some are; most, however, are not.

Forgot about plastic surgery. So, huh, we are already doing that.

Plastic surgery is nowhere near the equivalent of chopping off one's limbs for a better model, though I must admit many such vanity surgeries unnerve me.

[Ordya]

Your views are rather irrational. You know what else could have (and did, to some extent) turn the world on its head? Democracy. Equality across all sorts of lines (gender, class, racial). Etc.

When something has clear benefits and risks that are far from certain and can certainly be mitigated or avoided with planning and caution it is irrational to go "but I'm scared of what might happen, screw all the people it could help - potentially every human in the future - we should quash it forever!" All your arguments on this subject, ever, are "ifs, maybes, and coulds" and can be applied to almost every progress or development in human history. And often were. And were almost all proven incorrect.



So why is living to be a thousand more pointless and boring then only living to be a hundred? What is magical about our current lifespan that makes it perfect, other than it is what we have?

By that logic if we say halved our life spans they would have even more purpose and excitement! All those people that only lived to 30 were the actual lucky ones.

Or if you will - if longevity increases become possible and you look at your life and can't see any purpose to living longer - don't get them. If you do get them and find hundreds of years down the track you don't want to be alive anymore - then in full control of your life and how long you live elect to terminate your life, or stop whatever is keeping you alive.

It's not a long life I have a problem with, it's a never-ending life.

Never ending life, as in a life that can not possibly be ended, is pretty fantastical.[/quote]
You say that now, but what about when the earth begins to die and you suffer along with it? Or what about when the person you fall in love with chooses not to permanently enhance their life and they whither and die? Or how about when you reached you 20th 40th birthday and you realize just how truly mundane and foolish life really is?

[Conserative Morality]

Do you imagine how we think now is the best we could possibly ever think? If not why do you think the way "changed human beings think" would necessarily be worse?

How we think now is the best we could possibly think.

[Olivaero]

It's not a long life I have a problem with, it's a never-ending life.

Never ending life, as in a life that can not possibly be ended, is pretty fantastical.

You say that now, but what about when the earth begins to die and you suffer along with it? Or what about when the person you fall in love with chooses not to permanently enhance their life and they whither and die? Or how about when you reached you 20th 40th birthday and you realize just how truly mundane and foolish life really is?[/quote]
Because no one has loved ones that die already right? Depression doesn't already exist either right? Also If we are still earth bound by the time the sun actually makes it unlivable I shall extremely disappointed. Why worry about the imagined problems it *may* cause? do you know whats a very real problem for me right now? Death.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you imagine how we think now is the best we could possibly ever think? If not why do you think the way "changed human beings think" would necessarily be worse?

How we think now is the best we could possibly think.

Assuming that the manner of thought and the personality of the individuals were not directly effected by the process, do you oppose the transfer of a mind from a human body to a non-human body.

[Olivaero]

Do you imagine how we think now is the best we could possibly ever think? If not why do you think the way "changed human beings think" would necessarily be worse?

How we think now is the best we could possibly think.

I'm pretty sure that's been said in every century while there have been words around to accurately express that sentiment.

[Conserative Morality]

That entirely depends on how you define your humanity.
I find it in my capacity for rationality, and my sense of justice etc.

Are those without a sense of justice no longer human?

Humanity is all aspects of human existence, not just the ones we find moral.

None of that is rendered asunder by the adoption of a robotic body or becoming a purely conceptual entity.

Is it? At what point does one divorce one's physical aspects and one's mental aspects? Doesn't one's physical experiences shape one's outlook on life?

[Conserative Morality]

Assuming that the manner of thought and the personality of the individuals were not directly effected by the process, do you oppose the transfer of a mind from a human body to a non-human body.

Yes.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm pretty sure that's been said in every century while there have been words around to accurately express that sentiment.

Not in terms of philosophy or ideology, mind you. In terms of the way the human mind works in general terms.

[Ordya]

Never ending life, as in a life that can not possibly be ended, is pretty fantastical.

You say that now, but what about when the earth begins to die and you suffer along with it? Or what about when the person you fall in love with chooses not to permanently enhance their life and they whither and die? Or how about when you reached you 20th 40th birthday and you realize just how truly mundane and foolish life really is?

Because no one has loved ones that die already right? Depression doesn't already exist either right? Also If we are still earth bound by the time the sun actually makes it unlivable I shall extremely disappointed. Why worry about the imagined problems it *may* cause? do you know whats a very real problem for me right now? Death.[/quote]
You know that death and depression exist? Okay, now imagine those feelings multiplied by infinity. Have fun.

Though, I will agree with you on one thing: This is all hypothetical and mere speculation, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't still be argued.

[Ostroeuropa]

That entirely depends on how you define your humanity.
I find it in my capacity for rationality, and my sense of justice etc.

Are those without a sense of justice no longer human?

Humanity is all aspects of human existence, not just the ones we find moral.

None of that is rendered asunder by the adoption of a robotic body or becoming a purely conceptual entity.

Is it? At what point does one divorce one's physical aspects and one's mental aspects? Doesn't one's physical experiences shape one's outlook on life?

They can, but that seems largely irrelevant. Once you physically change, yes, your opinions may change over time to take into account the new experience.
They don't IMMEDIATELY cause a change.

[Norstal]

Does it? Are we in the search to replace ourselves for inefficiency? Perhaps some are; most, however, are not.

Every cosmetics commercial ever. Or if you want the efficiency part car commercials showing glamorous life that you can't even afford, which essentially says "your life sucks, get a new life by buying this car and you can be a cool yuppie like us."

Not an actual physical replacement, true, but the psychological replacement is certainly there.

Plastic surgery is nowhere near the equivalent of chopping off one's limbs for a better model, though I must admit many such vanity surgeries unnerve me.

No, perhaps not, but even if it's a nose you're chopping off or modifying and not whole limbs, it would still have the same psychological impact, imo.

[Conserative Morality]

They can, but that seems largely irrelevant. Once you physically change, yes, your opinions may change over time to take into account the new experience.
They don't IMMEDIATELY cause a change.

Well, I'm assuming these people aren't trying out a fake arm for a day.

Although, if they were, I would probably be just as horrified.

[Seperates]

Perhaps. But the homo sapian will still always be defined as a mostly hairless ape.

True, but some people seem awfully hung up on the mystical quality of "humanity", and what they talk about when describing it always seems to me to be a product of them mind, not flesh and bone. I don't see why it can only exist in the bodies we have today.

Well, considering that the mind is made up of flesh... it's understandable.

[AETEN II]

It's not a long life I have a problem with, it's a never-ending life.

Never ending life, as in a life that can not possibly be ended, is pretty fantastical.

You say that now, but what about when the earth begins to die and you suffer along with it? Or what about when the person you fall in love with chooses not to permanently enhance their life and they whither and die? Or how about when you reached you 20th 40th birthday and you realize just how truly mundane and foolish life really is?[/quote]
1) We'll be able to colonize space by then. Nobody will give a shit about Earth besides strip mining if for metal and researching the technology to make a faster than light drive (NASA is already researching one). We won't need Earth.

2) You could either force her hand, or simply wipe your memory of her upon death. Really, it's up to you.

3) Lol life is meaningless? While being able to endlessly revel in the glory of mandkind as immortalized great thinkers were able to dedicate entire centuries to their work, rapidly expanding our culture and increasing our technological power? Sounds more like heaven.

[Conserative Morality]

Every cosmetics commercial ever. Or if you want the efficiency part car commercials showing glamorous life that you can't even afford, which essentially says "your life sucks, get a new life by buying this car and you can be a cool yuppie like us."

Not an actual physical replacement, true, but the psychological replacement is certainly there.

No, perhaps not, but even if it's a nose you're chopping off or modifying and not whole limbs, it would still have the same psychological impact, imo.

I don't agree. It's a petty matter of aesthetics, at no point does one meaningfully change the human experience. What one does it change one's own life as a human to what they perceive as a more desirable life as another human. That's just not being true to oneself, which is still pretty terrible if you ask me. But it's not transhumanism.

[Ostroeuropa]

They can, but that seems largely irrelevant. Once you physically change, yes, your opinions may change over time to take into account the new experience.
They don't IMMEDIATELY cause a change.

Well, I'm assuming these people aren't trying out a fake arm for a day.

Although, if they were, I would probably be just as horrified.

Self-improvement is important. Provided that self-improvement doesn't harm other individuals, i'd even consider it a moral imperative.

[Seperates]

Are those without a sense of justice no longer human?

Humanity is all aspects of human existence, not just the ones we find moral.

Is it? At what point does one divorce one's physical aspects and one's mental aspects? Doesn't one's physical experiences shape one's outlook on life?

They can, but that seems largely irrelevant. Once you physically change, yes, your opinions may change over time to take into account the new experience.
They don't IMMEDIATELY cause a change.

Are you implying that this new substance will react like organic matter?

[Ostroeuropa]

They can, but that seems largely irrelevant. Once you physically change, yes, your opinions may change over time to take into account the new experience.
They don't IMMEDIATELY cause a change.

Are you implying that this new substance will react like organic matter?

What do you mean by organic matter exactly.

[Conserative Morality]

1) We'll be able to colonize space by then. Nobody will give a shit about Earth besides strip mining if for metal and researching the technology to make a faster than light drive (NASA is already researching one). We won't need Earth.

Earth is forever our home. We don't need the Colosseum of Rome, the Tower of London, Hagia Sofia, but these things remind us of our past, who our ancestors and predecessors were, and who we are.

2) You could either force her hand, or simply wipe your memory of her upon death. Really, it's up to you.

What the actual fuck.

3) Lol life is meaningless? While being able to endlessly revel in the glory of mandkind as immortalized great thinkers were able to dedicate entire centuries to their work, rapidly expanding our culture and increasing our technological power? Sounds more like heaven.

Sounds more like hell. You think philosophy is born from a life with no end and no purpose?

[Conserative Morality]

Self-improvement is important. Provided that self-improvement doesn't harm other individuals, i'd even consider it a moral imperative.

What is self-improvement, exactly?

[Seperates]

Are you implying that this new substance will react like organic matter?

What do you mean by organic matter exactly.

Will my program self-correct? Will it adapt? Will it change? My mind is purely physical, based on the unique connection patterns of neurons in my brain. As we learn those neurons make new connections and develop new understandings and interpretations. Will this eternal substance function exactly like my brain?

[Ostroeuropa]

Self-improvement is important. Provided that self-improvement doesn't harm other individuals, i'd even consider it a moral imperative.

What is self-improvement, exactly?

That's largely for the individual to decide. There are some norms.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Never ending life, as in a life that can not possibly be ended, is pretty fantastical.

You say that now, but what about when the earth begins to die and you suffer along with it? Or what about when the person you fall in love with chooses not to permanently enhance their life and they whither and die? Or how about when you reached you 20th 40th birthday and you realize just how truly mundane and foolish life really is?

Uh... fantastical? Existing in fantasy only? As in very unlikely or near to (if not totally) impossible? The TARDIS is a fantastical machine, as fantastic as it is.