What is Rape?

[Northern Skatchbrod]

So if rape victims were lucky they'd be dead?

Rape victims are dead to a degree. Not entirely, obviously. But a part of them, a very vital part dies after a rape, one that allows them to trust more regularly or doesn't see every compliment as an attempt to initiate unwanted sexual contact and other outward signs

Not all victims display behaviors to that degree, and some adapt better than others. But the trauma of being raped is a sort of living death in a way.

It is serious. When did I say it isn't? This forum is driving me insane.

The part where you said it's "less serious" than something.
Less serious than what, specifically? Because rape is a pretty goddamn serious problem.

Rape is a pretty damn serious thing, and it annoys me that some don't think of it as serious <---- This is what I said.

[Dimar]

OP, you're now officially the creepiest guy on NSG.

[Esternial]

Less serious than what exactly? I dunno if you got the memo but rape is a very very bad thing. I won't say homicide is better, but at least with homicide the victim is dead and doesn't have to experience recurring psychological trauma, abuse via the legal system, and ridicule from misoganist primitive overgrown children who think that what their daddy told them between in between rounds of raping and beating their mothers about women and how they're all lying whores is absolutely true who make assertions like "She really wanted it" or "She's making a false report because she regrets the sex".

The physical act is just the first part of the rape. Then there's the trauma that comes after it. How is that not "serious" exactly?

Wait, did N. Skatchbrod mean that conservatives thinking rape is less serious than most liberals do reflects well on conservatives (regardless of the truth of the assertion)?

Holy fuck! It'd be nice to have a punching bag and a pair of boxing gloves handy right now.

No I don't think he does, since he previously mentioned he believes rape is bad and wants rapists sentenced to death.

[Norstal]

ITT: Dogpile everywhere.

Have to admit though, that was a very stupid thing to say. Just because your personal experience is that Americans are fat, you can't assume all Americans are. Conversely, there's no clear indication that a majority of rape cases are based on false conviction.

[Northern Skatchbrod]

I did stop talking about it.

Good call, you probably should have made it before you called a rape victim a lying slut but still good call.

I'm still calling her a lying slut.

[Des-Bal]

Rape victims are dead to a degree. Not entirely, obviously. But a part of them, a very vital part dies after a rape, one that allows them to trust more regularly or doesn't see every compliment as an attempt to initiate unwanted sexual contact and other outward signs

Not all victims display behaviors to that degree, and some adapt better than others. But the trauma of being raped is a sort of living death in a way.

None of those are really requirements of being dead. When I say dead I mean medically dead and nothing less.

[Esternial]

OP, you're now officially the creepiest guy on NSG.

Clearly doesn't know Nightkill.

[Nadkor]

Sorry, rape apologist. Not interested.

Still not a rape apologist. Still I'll take that as a no. The fact that you acknowledge you're own bias is good enough for me.

Declining to engage with a rape apologist isn't "acknowledging my own bias" or whatever other nonsense you want to spin it as.

If they found him innocent and he was giving testimony about how his friend was raped would you assume she was lying?

But let's deal with a few parts of this.

Courts do not find people innocent. They find them not guilty (and, btw, the maxim isn't "innocent until proven guilty" - it's "presumed innocent until proven guilty". There is a significant conceptual difference).

Let's work with a less emotionally charged analogy - assault.

Someone punches me. I press charges, and I stand up in court and tell the court that they punched me and that I felt it was intentional. The court acquits them, on the basis that while they did punch me they didn't intend to punch me. Was I lying? No - I had a reasonable belief that they had punched me intentionally and they did, after all, punch me. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of assault (seeing as there isn't one definitive term, let's invent one - "assaultist") would be perfectly accurate.

Let's look at, say, a racially aggravated public order offence. Say I'm a black man, and a white man has shouted something at me that sounds to me like "fucking nigger cunt". I claim that I have been racially abused, and stand up in court and argue that I've been racially abused. The court acquits them on the basis that they believe that what he actually said was "fucking dickhead cunt". Was I lying? No - I believed strongly that I had been racially abused. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of racially abusing me (let's go with "racist") would be perfectly accurate.

Now, with rape this is not a perfectly direct analogy, but let's run with it and hope that it becomes clearer. A man has sex with me. I claim that I was raped and I stand up in court and tell the court that I had not consented to penetration. The court acquits them on the basis that while they penetrated me they had a reasonable belief that I had consented to the penetration. Was I lying? No - I genuinely felt that I hadn't consented. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty, however, then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of rape (which is "rapist") would be perfectly accurate.

This is why we don't go straight to calling the alleged victims in relation to any possible offence "liars" when someone is acquitted without evidence that they were actually lying but why it is actually perfectly reasonable to call someone convicted of an offence the term that describes someone who has been convicted of that offence.

[Des-Bal]

I'm still calling her a lying slut.

Then I invite you yet again to help us find evidence of her lies and slutdom. If the facts are on your side you have nothing to lose from disclosing this information.

[Evraim]

OP, you're now officially the creepiest guy on NSG.

Clearly doesn't know Nightkill.

You stole the words right out of my mouth.

Then I invite you yet again to help us find evidence of her lies and slutdom. If the facts are on your side you have nothing to lose from disclosing this information.

Slutdom? What is that?

[Northern Dominus]

Rape victims are dead to a degree. Not entirely, obviously. But a part of them, a very vital part dies after a rape, one that allows them to trust more regularly or doesn't see every compliment as an attempt to initiate unwanted sexual contact and other outward signs

Not all victims display behaviors to that degree, and some adapt better than others. But the trauma of being raped is a sort of living death in a way.

The part where you said it's "less serious" than something.
Less serious than what, specifically? Because rape is a pretty goddamn serious problem.

Rape is a pretty damn serious thing, and it annoys me that some don't think of it as serious <---- This is what I said.

Is that what you said? Because I'm pretty sure what you posted read, verbatim:

No, but many conservatives think of it as less serious than most liberals do.

With your stance you've come out swinging as a pretty dyed in the wool neo-conservative. So whats more serious than rape, or would you like to clarify your position a bit further?

[Norstal]

Good call, you probably should have made it before you called a rape victim a lying slut but still good call.

I'm still calling her a lying slut.

Whether or not she "slept with the whole town", if she did not consent to have sex and was forced to have sex, then it is rape.

Really, maybe she doesn't want to have sex when she doesn't want to. How is that so hard to fathom?

[Northern Skatchbrod]

Rape is a pretty damn serious thing, and it annoys me that some don't think of it as serious <---- This is what I said.

Is that what you said? Because I'm pretty sure what you posted read, verbatim:

No, but many conservatives think of it as less serious than most liberals do.

With your stance you've come out swinging as a pretty dyed in the wool neo-conservative. So whats more serious than rape, or would you like to clarify your position a bit further?

Before this, I said that I'm not trying to be conservative/old-timed about this subject like most of my conservative friends.

[Individuality-ness]

OP, you're now officially the creepiest guy on NSG.

Not really. There's a guy who's pro-pedophilia somewhere on the forums.

[Evraim]

With your stance you've come out swinging as a pretty dyed in the wool neo-conservative. So whats more serious than rape, or would you like to clarify your position a bit further?

Why do people always group me with rape apologists, homophobes, and racists?

Not really. There's a guy who's pro-pedophilia somewhere on the forums.

Several.

[The Merchant Republics]

So conservatives don't believe rape is bad?

No, but many conservatives think of it as less serious than most liberals do.

And there are many liberals who don't think it as serious as some conservatives.

See, I think I see where you're coming from.

Conservatives are more likely (no offense) to have more misogynistic notions of male and female dynamics, conservatives tend to have outdated notions like "she's dressed like a slut so she wanted it". Pretty awful, and definitely a cause of taking rape less serious than we should. However, what you may be forgetting is that conservatives also tend to be more religious and sexually modest, to a conservative (as I am socially conservative at a personal level) rape is much more serious because we place more value on lasting sexual relationships and abstinence.

However, liberals by the by, tend have more libertine notions of sexuality. While they are less likely to say "she's dressed like a slut", they are frankly much more likely to consider women to have "wanted it" or that it was alright because they were drunk.

I'm making generalizations obviously, but my point is that it's wrong to suggest either liberal or conservative social views are particularly responsible for these erroneous beliefs regarding rape.

[Norstal]

With your stance you've come out swinging as a pretty dyed in the wool neo-conservative. So whats more serious than rape, or would you like to clarify your position a bit further?

Why do people always group me with rape apologists, homophobes, and racists?

He wasn't replying to you, for one.

[Esternial]

Slutdom? What is that?

A dome made up from sluts.

An architectural wonder.

[Evraim]

He wasn't replying to you, for one.

The presumption behind the post appears to be that the political right supports rape or trivializes it.

A dome made up from sluts.

An architectural wonder.

Like the pyramids?

[Des-Bal]

Declining to engage with a rape apologist isn't "acknowledging my own bias" or whatever other nonsense you want to spin it as.


But let's deal with a few parts of this.

Courts do not find people innocent. They find them not guilty (and, btw, the maxim isn't "innocent until proven guilty" - it's "presumed innocent until proven guilty". There is a significant conceptual difference).

Let's work with a less emotionally charged analogy - assault.

Someone punches me. I press charges, and I stand up in court and tell the court that they punched me and that I felt it was intentional. The court acquits them, on the basis that while they did punch me they didn't intend to punch me. Was I lying? No - I had a reasonable belief that they had punched me intentionally and they did, after all, punch me. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of assault (seeing as there isn't one definitive term, let's invent one - "assaultist") would be perfectly accurate.

Let's look at, say, a racially aggravated public order offence. Say I'm a black man, and a white man has shouted something at me that sounds to me like "fucking nigger cunt". I claim that I have been racially abused, and stand up in court and argue that I've been racially abused. The court acquits them on the basis that they believe that what he actually said was "fucking dickhead cunt". Was I lying? No - I believed strongly that I had been racially abused. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of racially abusing me (let's go with "racist") would be perfectly accurate.

Now, with rape this is not a perfectly direct analogy, but let's run with it and hope that it becomes clearer. A man has sex with me. I claim that I was raped and I stand up in court and tell the court that I had not consented to penetration. The court acquits them on the basis that while they penetrated me they had a reasonable belief that I had consented to the penetration. Was I lying? No - I genuinely felt that I hadn't consented. Can I be called a liar? No.

If they are found guilty, however, then describing them using the term for someone who has been convicted of rape (which is "rapist") would be perfectly accurate.

This is why we don't go straight to calling the alleged victims in relation to any possible offence "liars" when someone is acquitted without evidence that they were actually lying but why it is actually perfectly reasonable to call someone convicted of an offence the term that describes someone who has been convicted of that offence.

His friends claiming to that she consented to the sex. In the inverted scenario she's still maintaining that she didn't.

[Northern Skatchbrod]

No, but many conservatives think of it as less serious than most liberals do.

And there are many liberals who don't think it as serious as some conservatives.

See, I think I see where you're coming from.

Conservatives are more likely (no offense) to have more misogynistic notions of male and female dynamics, conservatives tend to have outdated notions like "she's dressed like a slut so she wanted it". Pretty awful, and definitely a cause of taking rape less serious than we should. However, what you may be forgetting is that conservatives also tend to be more religious and sexually modest, to a conservative (as I am socially conservative at a personal level) rape is much more serious because we place more value on lasting sexual relationships and abstinence.

However, liberals by the by, tend have more libertine notions of sexuality. While they are less likely to say "she's dressed like a slut", they are frankly much more likely to consider women to have "wanted it" or that it was alright because they were drunk.

I'm making generalizations obviously, but my point is that it's wrong to suggest either liberal or conservative social views are particularly responsible for these erroneous beliefs regarding rape.

Well, I'm speaking wholly of personal experience with conservatives. Especially in a certain group I used to be in.

[Des-Bal]

Not really. There's a guy who's pro-pedophilia somewhere on the forums.

There are alot of them, every time I encounter them anti-pedophilia is in the overwhelming minority.

[Tiltjuice]

Still waiting on that case information.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Rape is a pretty damn serious thing, and it annoys me that some don't think of it as serious <---- This is what I said.

Is that what you said? Because I'm pretty sure what you posted read, verbatim:

No, but many conservatives think of it as less serious than most liberals do.

With your stance you've come out swinging as a pretty dyed in the wool neo-conservative. So whats more serious than rape, or would you like to clarify your position a bit further?

A Neo-Conservative subscribes to an American foreign policy school of thought that advocates using America's military preponderance to spread American values and democracy with little regard for the norms of international law or state sovereignty. On social policy they tend to be on the left, since they are largely comprised of members of the political left who became disenchated with the Vietnam syndrome in the 70s (Dick Cheney for instance is one of those log cabin Republicans). Whatever their flaws, let's not accuse them all of being rape apologists, since that is not part of their core ideology.

Northern Skatchbrod on the other hand....

[Northern Skatchbrod]

Still waiting on that case information.

Not gonna get it.