What is Rape?

[Gravlen]

Is the maximum possible penalty different between the two categories?

aggravated rape:2-10 years in prison
rape:1-6 years in prison
coercive sexual contact: up to 3 years in prison
coercive sexual act: Fines or up to 3 years in prison

Hmm... I understand your apprehension.

[Des-Bal]

Deal with it on its merits.

But I find it unlikely you'd ever see the situation arise. I don't believe there is such a thing as "mutual rape" outside of the realm of theory. You simply won't get two people who are not sufficiently intoxicated to be unable to carry out sexual acts while being sufficiently intoxicated to be unable to consent and, at the same time, is not sufficiently intoxicated to be able to understand that the other party is sufficiently intoxicated to be unable to consent.

This is where you I and the law are in agreement. I'm of the opinion that if a person is incapable of consent they are also incapable of fulfilling the mens rea requirement of the crime. That's apparently both very controversial and "clearly" being a rapist apologist.

[Des-Bal]

Bother were drunk enough to be incapable of giving consent and neither can understand what could have possibly motivated them to do such a thing.

So neither are actually claiming to be raped, nor are they accusing the other of rape?

The question wasn't necessarily about whether or not the case should go to court it was about whether or not one of them had been raped. Rapes happen even if they aren't appointed.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKWomkcd8B8

[Condunum]

Nevermind if one has actually happened.

What do you DO in that case?

Pray to god that neither of them presses charges. Unless you're a lawyer in which case you pray to god that both of them press charges.

Oh god no. I'm pretty sure if I were a lawyer I would never want a case like that.

"Your rapist raped my rapist!"
"No, your rapist raped my rapist!"

[Blamuesia]

What the actuall fuck?

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

If a woman has enjoys forceful men, men who kiss her without her consent and don't let her go even if she is trying to forcefully push them off and get away, is it rape to force oneself upon her? and if it is rape is it wrong? I know one such girl, she told me about one time when she was put in that situation and she ultimately gave in and began kissing back and she really really enjoyed the whole affair, in hindsight.

I was in a very similar situation, and nearly a year later I'm still dealing with the trauma of my rape. There are days where I can't leave my flat, I still have panic attacks. It's cost me a lot of money in therapy (I've been forced to go private since I'm still waiting for a therapist). That person changed my life forever, and I've been in the fight of my life to get healthy again. I didn't just wake up, decide I regretted the sex, then decide the best way to deal with those feelings would be to have panic attacks and social anxiety.

So, the consequences of backing off when someone says "no" is some people might not get a chance to discover a kink of theirs and someone else doesn't get an orgasm. OR you really screw up someone's life. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why my feelings and my well being should be given less consideration in this case.

Another thing, all rapists aren't monsters. Mine wasn't. This was someone I was attracted to, danced with and kissed. I think it's possible my rapist wouldn't consider what they did to me to be rape. They might even tell you that I enjoyed it. What they think doesn't negate the damage they did to me.

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

So neither are actually claiming to be raped, nor are they accusing the other of rape?

The question wasn't necessarily about whether or not the case should go to court it was about whether or not one of them had been raped. Rapes happen even if they aren't appointed.

But did both of them feel raped? That's the critical thing here.

[Des-Bal]

But did both of them feel raped? That's the critical thing here.

Sure.

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

But did both of them feel raped? That's the critical thing here.

Sure.

There you have it then. The emotional impact of rape is the deciding factor here. That's what people who survive rape have to live with and get past, and regardless of how the situation looks to those on the outside, how those people feel is what matters.

I do find it highly unlikely two people would walk away from a sexual encounter both feeling raped, based on my own experiences, but I won't go so far to say it's completely impossible. Sorry, I don't feel like explaining why I feel the way I do more than that.

To be clear, I am speaking on the non-legal level. I'll leave the legalities of such a scenario to someone with an actual law degree.

[Des-Bal]

There you have it then. The emotional impact of rape is the deciding factor here. That's what people who survive rape have to live with and get past, and regardless of how the situation looks to those on the outside, how those people feel is what matters.

I do find it highly unlikely two people would walk away from a sexual encounter both feeling raped, based on my own experiences, but I won't go so far to say it's completely impossible. Sorry, I don't feel like explaining why I feel the way I do more than that.

To be clear, I am speaking on the non-legal level. I'll leave the legalities of such a scenario to someone with an actual law degree.

But that doesn't make sense. If someone can't consent how can they assess someone elses' ability to consent?

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

There you have it then. The emotional impact of rape is the deciding factor here. That's what people who survive rape have to live with and get past, and regardless of how the situation looks to those on the outside, how those people feel is what matters.

I do find it highly unlikely two people would walk away from a sexual encounter both feeling raped, based on my own experiences, but I won't go so far to say it's completely impossible. Sorry, I don't feel like explaining why I feel the way I do more than that.

To be clear, I am speaking on the non-legal level. I'll leave the legalities of such a scenario to someone with an actual law degree.

But that doesn't make sense. If someone can't consent how can they assess someone elses' ability to consent?

I'm not talking about the legal definitions here, and I didn't think you were either. If you want to discuss legalities, I do have to politely bow out.

Let me do my best to explain my point of view, and fair warning, I might decide this is too much for me at any time and stop the dialogue (and I have to leave in 10 mins, so you might have to wait until tomorrow for an answer).

From the perspective of the victim, the problem isn't "I didn't give consent" the problem is, "this person keeps doing things to me that I'm not okay with." This goes beyond the general misread signals we've all had from time to time. It's... more. I've had sex I wasn't enthusiastic about. I've let a partner do things I'd rather they not have done. Those did not feel like the time I was raped. At all.

I have a hard time believing that two people are going to be feeling like, "oh god, oh god, when will this end" while at the same time continuing the assault on their partner who's thinking the same thing. IF such a scenario occurred, they are both going to be profoundly affected by that sex act and they need all the support and care any other rape victim deserves. I realize this seems like an absurd scenario, but if it were to occur, I'd hate to see these people denied all the resources necessary to recover.

I'll do my best to clarify, I know I'm being vague. This isn't the easiest thing to put into words. I also am not speaking for all rape victims. Others might have different feelings than me.

[Des-Bal]

I'm not talking about the legal definitions here, and I didn't think you were either. If you want to discuss legalities, I do have to politely bow out.

Let me do my best to explain my point of view, and fair warning, I might decide this is too much for me at any time and stop the dialogue (and I have to leave in 10 mins, so you might have to wait until tomorrow for an answer).

From the perspective of the victim, the problem isn't "I didn't give consent" the problem is, "this person keeps doing things to me that I'm not okay with." This goes beyond the general misread signals we've all had from time to time. It's... more. I've had sex I wasn't enthusiastic about. I've let a partner do things I'd rather they not have done. Those did not feel like the time I was raped. At all.

I have a hard time believing that two people are going to be feeling like, "oh god, oh god, when will this end" while at the same time continuing the assault on their partner who's thinking the same thing. IF such a scenario occurred, they are both going to be profoundly affected by that sex act and they need all the support and care any other rape victim deserves.

I'll do my best to clarify, I know I'm being vague. This isn't the easiest thing to put into words. I also am not speaking for all rape victims. Others might have different feelings than me.

So you're saying consent isn't the actual issue, it's the emotional state of the victim?

[Northern Dominus]

If a woman has enjoys forceful men, men who kiss her without her consent and don't let her go even if she is trying to forcefully push them off and get away, is it rape to force oneself upon her? and if it is rape is it wrong? I know one such girl, she told me about one time when she was put in that situation and she ultimately gave in and began kissing back and she really really enjoyed the whole affair, in hindsight.

I was in a very similar situation, and nearly a year later I'm still dealing with the trauma of my rape. There are days where I can't leave my flat, I still have panic attacks. It's cost me a lot of money in therapy (I've been forced to go private since I'm still waiting for a therapist). That person changed my life forever, and I've been in the fight of my life to get healthy again. I didn't just wake up, decide I regretted the sex, then decide the best way to deal with those feelings would be to have panic attacks and social anxiety.

So, the consequences of backing off when someone says "no" is some people might not get a chance to discover a kink of theirs and someone else doesn't get an orgasm. OR you really screw up someone's life. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why my feelings and my well being should be given less consideration in this case.

Another thing, all rapists aren't monsters. Mine wasn't. This was someone I was attracted to, danced with and kissed. I think it's possible my rapist wouldn't consider what they did to me to be rape. They might even tell you that I enjoyed it. What they think doesn't negate the damage they did to me.

Not to pry too much, but even after the therapy and the determination to get back to as normal as you can, does the memory still remain? Does the trauma of the event still have an affect on how you perceive men that are interested in a relationship with you beyond platonic frienship? Not in a PTSD break sort of deal, but just in the back of your mind, the whole "what if" scenario?

More importantly, did your rapist ever face justice or accountability for his crimes?

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

I'm not talking about the legal definitions here, and I didn't think you were either. If you want to discuss legalities, I do have to politely bow out.

Let me do my best to explain my point of view, and fair warning, I might decide this is too much for me at any time and stop the dialogue (and I have to leave in 10 mins, so you might have to wait until tomorrow for an answer).

From the perspective of the victim, the problem isn't "I didn't give consent" the problem is, "this person keeps doing things to me that I'm not okay with." This goes beyond the general misread signals we've all had from time to time. It's... more. I've had sex I wasn't enthusiastic about. I've let a partner do things I'd rather they not have done. Those did not feel like the time I was raped. At all.

I have a hard time believing that two people are going to be feeling like, "oh god, oh god, when will this end" while at the same time continuing the assault on their partner who's thinking the same thing. IF such a scenario occurred, they are both going to be profoundly affected by that sex act and they need all the support and care any other rape victim deserves.

I'll do my best to clarify, I know I'm being vague. This isn't the easiest thing to put into words. I also am not speaking for all rape victims. Others might have different feelings than me.

So you're saying consent isn't the actual issue, it's the emotional state of the victim?

From the perspective I'm coming from and if I understand what you're saying, then yes. Again, this has nothing to do with legal definitions, but how we react to victims. I think that's the far more important part.

[Cocsoah]

Do you need to ask that question?
Oh, and you belong in jail...

[ThirdPrizeYoureFired]

I was in a very similar situation, and nearly a year later I'm still dealing with the trauma of my rape. There are days where I can't leave my flat, I still have panic attacks. It's cost me a lot of money in therapy (I've been forced to go private since I'm still waiting for a therapist). That person changed my life forever, and I've been in the fight of my life to get healthy again. I didn't just wake up, decide I regretted the sex, then decide the best way to deal with those feelings would be to have panic attacks and social anxiety.

So, the consequences of backing off when someone says "no" is some people might not get a chance to discover a kink of theirs and someone else doesn't get an orgasm. OR you really screw up someone's life. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why my feelings and my well being should be given less consideration in this case.

Another thing, all rapists aren't monsters. Mine wasn't. This was someone I was attracted to, danced with and kissed. I think it's possible my rapist wouldn't consider what they did to me to be rape. They might even tell you that I enjoyed it. What they think doesn't negate the damage they did to me.

Not to pry too much, but even after the therapy and the determination to get back to as normal as you can, does the memory still remain? Does the trauma of the event still have an affect on how you perceive men that are interested in a relationship with you beyond platonic frienship? Not in a PTSD break sort of deal, but just in the back of your mind, the whole "what if" scenario?

More importantly, did your rapist ever face justice or accountability for his crimes?

Yeah, it still does and I still am affected. Just a few hours ago, someone groped me and instead of being annoyed I just felt the bottom fall out of my stomach. It definitely has altered my perception of others who violate my personal space. A lot of things that I wouldn't have even noticed before, really bother me now. Relationships are an interesting question, and I don't have an answer for that. I haven't dated since that happened, and in some ways, I feel like it's all new again. I don't know how I'll react. I know I'm a lot quicker to shut down potential romantic possibilities. I feel like I'm not ready, but if the right person came along I would be. If that makes sense? I'm probably rambling a bit.

Where my rape happened, it wouldn't have been considered rape. I also had too many other, much more important, things going on in my life. So even if it had, I wouldn't have reported it. I just couldn't face going through the hell of an investigation and trial at that point in my life.

And ask anything you want. I'm out of the safe space of the rape thread, I know what that means. I will tell you if I don't want to discuss something. Thanks for the discretion in asking though. It's appreciated. Anything else, I'll answer tomorrow, I promise.

[Des-Bal]

From the perspective I'm coming from and if I understand what you're saying, then yes. Again, this has nothing to do with legal definitions, but how we react to victims. I think that's the far more important part.

Laws are fleeting, transitory things I'm more interested in what you consider to be right and wrong. Complications arise with the fact that if we have decoupled the ideas of consent and emotional state then it's possible for someone to commit rape without being aware of it and for an offender to forcibly have sex with another person fully intent on committing rape but for the victim to feel that they were not raped.

[Greater soviet america]

unwanted forced sexual intercourse

[Condunum]

unwanted forced sexual intercourse

It... Doesn't really even need to be forced.

[Asasia]

There is a very fine line between seduction and rape.

[Des-Bal]

It... Doesn't really even need to be forced.

Or intercourse according to some people.

There is a very fine line between seduction and rape.

There really shouldn't be.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

rape

1) n. the crime of sexual intercourse (with actual penetration of a woman's vagina with the man's penis) without consent and accomplished through force, threat of violence or intimidation (such as a threat to harm a woman's child, husband or boyfriend). What constitutes lack of consent usually includes saying "no" or being too drunk or drug-influenced for the woman to be able to either resist or consent, but a recent Pennsylvania case ruled that a woman must do more than say "no" on the bizarre theory that "no" does not always mean "don't," but a flirtatious come-on. "Date rape" involves rape by an acquaintance who refuses to stop when told to. Defense attorneys often argue that there had to be physical resistance, but the modern view is that fear of harm and the relative strengths of the man and the woman are obvious deterrents to a woman fighting back. Any sexual intercourse with a child is rape and in most states sexual relations even with consent involving a girl 14 to 18 (with some variation on ages in a few states) is "statutory rape," on the basis that the female is unable to give consent. 2) v. to have sexual intercourse with a female without her consent through force, violence, threat or intimidation, or with a girl under age. Technically, a woman can be charged with rape by assisting a man in the rape of another woman. Dissatisfied with the typical prosecution of rape cases (in which the defense humiliates the accuser, and prosecutors are unable or unwilling to protect the woman from such tactics), women have been suing for civil damages for the physical and emotional damage caused by the rape, although too often the perpetrator has no funds. Protection services for rape victims have been developed by both public and private agencies. On the other side of the coin, there is the concern of law enforcement and prosecutors that women whose advances have been rejected by a man, or who have been caught in the act of consensual sexual intercourse may falsely cry "rape."

See also: date rape statutory rape

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1718

[Individuality-ness]

unwanted forced sexual intercourse

It... Doesn't really even need to be forced.

It could be coerced, it could be extorted, it could be anything.

Also, you will still be raped if the rapist jams a dildo into your ass or if you were forced to give a girl oral or if a guy sticks his fingers into a girl's vagina, under the current FBI legal definition if I remember correctly.

[Northern Dominus]

Not to pry too much, but even after the therapy and the determination to get back to as normal as you can, does the memory still remain? Does the trauma of the event still have an affect on how you perceive men that are interested in a relationship with you beyond platonic frienship? Not in a PTSD break sort of deal, but just in the back of your mind, the whole "what if" scenario?

More importantly, did your rapist ever face justice or accountability for his crimes?

Yeah, it still does and I still am affected. Just a few hours ago, someone groped me and instead of being annoyed I just felt the bottom fall out of my stomach. It definitely has altered my perception of others who violate my personal space. A lot of things that I wouldn't have even noticed before, really bother me now. Relationships are an interesting question, and I don't have an answer for that. I haven't dated since that happened, and in some ways, I feel like it's all new again. I don't know how I'll react. I know I'm a lot quicker to shut down potential romantic possibilities. I feel like I'm not ready, but if the right person came along I would be. If that makes sense? I'm probably rambling a bit.

Where my rape happened, it wouldn't have been considered rape. I also had too many other, much more important, things going on in my life. So even if it had, I wouldn't have reported it. I just couldn't face going through the hell of an investigation and trial at that point in my life.

And ask anything you want. I'm out of the safe space of the rape thread, I know what that means. I will tell you if I don't want to discuss something. Thanks for the discretion in asking though. It's appreciated. Anything else, I'll answer tomorrow, I promise.

And that's the failing of our legal system and our society at large by trying to break things down into semantics. If somebody mentions that an act which is unwanted sexual contact is not rape because "it's not the legal definition", then by extension that's societal molestation of the victim after the fact.
In your cause, unfortunately the trauma is continuing because the asshole never answered for what he did. He might not be a "monster" in the Lifetime Movie sense, but something about him is most definitely malformed and unfit for modern society if he didn't feel guilty as hell about it afterwords at the very least.

You've hit it on the head: the law is lacking because it fails to recognize the trauma to the victim in all cases of sexual assault, and splitting hairs on the part of society only perpetuates it.

There is a very fine line between seduction and rape.

Not really. In fact there's a very big bold line punctuated by one big word:
No.