NationStates

"The reality is that we need to be changing how we train and teach young men. We need to teach them to see women as human beings and respect their bodily autonomy. We need to teach them about consent and to hold themselves accountable.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men ... t_to_rape/

Some of you may wonder how other people can view feminism in negative aspects ranging from skepticism to utter disdain. If you are, look no further than the link I have posted for you. As a society, we have generally allowed the media to take pot shots at the male gender under the assumption that they don't suffer and are not easily offended to begin with. Statements like "Women are smarter than men" or "Men are the cause of war." are thrown around in the media with little to no backlash, but if you were to reverse those two phrases and put them on air, then you would have a hate speech on your hands.

Noting that rule, we can see how far it can be taken with the quote above. It's astonishing to me that some man-hating bigot can go on television and claim that men are natural-born rapists and that they need to be trained to supress that instinct and educated to see women as human beings. They say "society teaches men to rape", but no one in my life has ever once told me that it was ok to rape, nor did anyone ever tell me that women were not people. The idea that rape is ingrained in every man and has been institutionalized and permitted by society is about as far from reality as it gets. No one teaches anyone to rape nor are rapists anywhere near comparable to the average man. Men who do rape are mentally sick, not mentally normal and to say that such a revolting act is part of a man's normal mental function and he needs to be trained out of it is equally as revolting.

Why is this acceptable? Why is it ok to brand men as violent, sadistic, cold-hearted savages? If we did this to any other group, race, ethnicity, or nationality, it would be called out for the ignorant hate speech that it is. Why is there an exception here?

Wh… wh…

uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh

wut

Wow! That victim of rape is really biased against men, isn't she?

If a female rapes a male would she look the over way and deny it happened?

Rereumrari wrote:
Why is this acceptable? Why is it ok to brand men as violent, sadistic, cold-hearted savages? If we did this to any other group, race, ethnicity, or nationality, it would be called out for the ignorant hate speech that it is. Why is there an exception here?

Are all feminists saying this? Otherwise you might have a point.

well we already are taught not to rape. we are taught not to lie, cheat and steal as well.

yet we have prisons filled with murders, thieves, and rapists.

we teach robbery prevention. "dont play with your ipad on the subway" i think it makes sense to teach rape prevention as well.

Rereumrari wrote: They say "society teaches men to rape", but no one in my life has ever once told me that it was ok to rape, nor did anyone ever tell me that women were not people. The idea that rape is ingrained in every man and has been institutionalized and permitted by society is about as far from reality as it gets.

What a complete, utter, and profound ignorance of even the most basic concepts of sociological theory.

I see only one person talking here.

I've always wondered about the ridiculous argument made by certain individuals that rapist are taught rape is okay by society, that they simply may not know or had any chance to discern the evil which they are perpetrating on another human being. Surely, it is a sign of that certain school of thought evidenced elsewhere that holds no criminal can truly be held accountable for his actions, but instead that it is somehow society's fault that they've come to be they way they are and to act as they do.

What the fuck? Whats with this ignorant rant?

Come back and try again when things like "her lips said 'no' but her eyes said 'yes'", "she was leading me on", "it was great, she was totally wasted", "I could tell she wanted it", and jokes about "surprise sex" aren't things anymore. Until then, they're right and you are wrong.

Rereumrari wrote: It's astonishing to me that some man-hating bigot can go on television and claim that men are natural-born rapists and that they need to be trained to supress that instinct and educated to see women as human beings.

That would be astonishing, if she'd said anything resembling that. What she actually said is that rape is a crime committed by rapists, not their victims, and that if we actually want to prevent rape, we should be targeting rapists, not their victims, and making it clear that rape will not be condoned. This should not be controversial, seeing as it's what we do with every other crime.

Incidentally, your own link makes the point that people are responding to Maxwell by deluging her with rape threats. The fact that you think the thing worth criticizing here is "some mean woman said it makes more sense to prevent crime by stopping criminals than by blaming victims" and not "numerous people are sending rape threats to someone solely for saying something they didn't like" says a whole lot about you.

I don't think that train is the right word

but yes people, young people, ...lets call them students...do need to be taught with frank examples what is and what is not rape. leaving it to porn scenarios and the braggadocio of teenaged megalover wannabes ends up with far too many young men and women not realizing where the line is and how it gets crossed.

Nailed to the Perch wrote:

Rereumrari wrote: It's astonishing to me that some man-hating bigot can go on television and claim that men are natural-born rapists and that they need to be trained to supress that instinct and educated to see women as human beings.

That would be astonishing, if she'd said anything resembling that. What she actually said is that rape is a crime committed by rapists, not their victims, and that if we actually want to prevent rape, we should be targeting rapists, not their victims, and making it clear that rape will not be condoned. This should not be controversial, seeing as it's what we do with every other crime.

Incidentally, your own link makes the point that people are responding to Maxwell by deluging her with rape threats. The fact that you think the thing worth criticizing here is "some mean woman said it makes more sense to prevent crime by stopping criminals than by blaming victims" and not "numerous people are sending rape threats to someone solely for saying something they didn't like" says a whole lot about you.

l wish we could use the concept of "if the shoe DOESNT fit, don't wear it". if her comments don't apply to you stop taking them as an insult on your personal honor.

Neo Art wrote:

Rereumrari wrote: They say "society teaches men to rape", but no one in my life has ever once told me that it was ok to rape, nor did anyone ever tell me that women were not people. The idea that rape is ingrained in every man and has been institutionalized and permitted by society is about as far from reality as it gets.

What a complete, utter, and profound ignorance of even the most basic concepts of sociological theory.

good to see your in your usual form

I would say that for the most part, most men are not rapists (being one myself) and her suggestions are quite ridiculous. Men are already taught that rape is unacceptable, just like all other crime.

Nailed to the Perch wrote:

Rereumrari wrote: It's astonishing to me that some man-hating bigot can go on television and claim that men are natural-born rapists and that they need to be trained to supress that instinct and educated to see women as human beings.

That would be astonishing, if she'd said anything resembling that. What she actually said is that rape is a crime committed by rapists, not their victims, and that if we actually want to prevent rape, we should be targeting rapists, not their victims, and making it clear that rape will not be condoned.

Lo, I wasn't aware that our society condoned rape! I could have sworn there are laws making it a criminal offense, for instance.

Also, what an astounding point to make. "Rape is a crime committed by rapist..."

Oh god.....
Burn it with fire!

Not seeing any intelligent arguments against her.

Howdoyoudoland wrote:

Nailed to the Perch wrote:
That would be astonishing, if she'd said anything resembling that. What she actually said is that rape is a crime committed by rapists, not their victims, and that if we actually want to prevent rape, we should be targeting rapists, not their victims, and making it clear that rape will not be condoned.

Lo, I wasn't aware that our society condoned rape! I could have sworn there are laws making it a criminal offense, for instance.

It's nice that you live under a rock. This objection has already been pretty clearly answered a few posts up.

Also, what an astounding point to make. "Rape is a crime committed by rapist..."

Yeah, I know, right? You'd think that would be obvious, and yet people still go on blaming victims for being raped instead of rapists for raping them.

Howdoyoudoland wrote:Lo, I wasn't aware that our society condoned rape! I could have sworn there are laws making it a criminal offense, for instance.

See this:

Wikkiwallana wrote:Come back and try again when things like "her lips said 'no' but her eyes said 'yes'", "she was leading me on", "it was great, she was totally wasted", "I could tell she wanted it", and jokes about "surprise sex" aren't things anymore. Until then, they're right and you are wrong.

Howdoyoudoland wrote:Also, what an astounding point to make. "Rape is a crime committed by rapist..."

A very important point to make. There's a lot of victim blaming in the world -- "they shouldn't have gone to that pub if they wanted to avoid getting raped", "she was totally asking for it, did you see how short her skirt was", "she wasn't a stranger to him, so he should have chosen his friends better and not gone out with a rapist", "come on, she wasn't raped, she just regretted it the next day and that's not the other girl's fault", etc..

Wikkiwallana wrote:Come back and try again when things like "her lips said 'no' but her eyes said 'yes'", "she was leading me on", "it was great, she was totally wasted", "I could tell she wanted it", and jokes about "surprise sex" aren't things anymore. Until then, they're right and you are wrong.

Come back and try again when you prove that even half of people in society support the shit which you just said.

Ashmoria wrote:

Nailed to the Perch wrote:
That would be astonishing, if she'd said anything resembling that. What she actually said is that rape is a crime committed by rapists, not their victims, and that if we actually want to prevent rape, we should be targeting rapists, not their victims, and making it clear that rape will not be condoned. This should not be controversial, seeing as it's what we do with every other crime.

Incidentally, your own link makes the point that people are responding to Maxwell by deluging her with rape threats. The fact that you think the thing worth criticizing here is "some mean woman said it makes more sense to prevent crime by stopping criminals than by blaming victims" and not "numerous people are sending rape threats to someone solely for saying something they didn't like" says a whole lot about you.

l wish we could use the concept of "if the shoe DOESNT fit, don't wear it". if her comments don't apply to you stop taking them as an insult on your personal honor.

Seriously. One I hear a lot in feminist spaces is, "If it's not about you, don't make it about you." If YOU would never ever rape anyone, great! You are not the target of programs designed to teach people about consent and to keep them from raping anyone! Other people, who might rape people, are! Unless you believe that rape does not exist, it's pretty friggin' obvious that SOME people would commit rape, and it should not be offensive to anyone to suggest that we should probably try to stop those people from doing so.

Wikkiwallana wrote:Come back and try again when things like "her lips said 'no' but her eyes said 'yes'", "she was leading me on", "it was great, she was totally wasted", "I could tell she wanted it", and jokes about "surprise sex" aren't things anymore. Until then, they're right and you are wrong.

Yeah, murderers will say "they had it coming." as well. I don't see anyone claiming that any group instinctually programmed to murder.

Kalarin wrote:I would say that for the most part, most men are not rapists (being one myself) and her suggestions are quite ridiculous. Men are already taught that rape is unacceptable, just like all other crime.

sure

we are all taught "not to rape"

what we aren't taught is what constitutes rape. that is why there is so much "date rape" going on. quite often it doesn't occur to the perpetrator that he (or she) had crossed the line.