Men need to be trained to not rape.

[Freelanderness]

Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female-on-male rape when:
1) The issue, in this topic in particular, is the social and cultural factors involved in the widespread persistence of vast percentages of males who actually believe that some actions (which legally fall into the category of rape) are not actually "rape", or they wrongfully believe that certain actions or attitudes from women indirectly implied consent to sex.
2) Feminism is a social and political movement focused almost entirely on the problems regarding conscious and unconscious prejudices towards women in human civilization.

Actually, sexual acts should be considered consensual unless one partner directly & verbally objects to said sexual act.

False. Sexual acts should be considered nonconsensual until verbal consent is given.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female-on-male rape when:
1) The issue, in this topic in particular, is the social and cultural factors involved in the widespread persistence of vast percentages of males who actually believe that some actions (which legally fall into the category of rape) are not actually "rape", or they wrongfully believe that certain actions or attitudes from women indirectly implied consent to sex.
2) Feminism is a social and political movement focused almost entirely on the problems regarding conscious and unconscious prejudices towards women in human civilization.

Oh I see. Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female on male rape or female on female rape. There's justice for you folks. They don't care about anything but what happens to women.

You read what he posted.

And it's true. Feminism is concerned with what happens to women. That's why it's called feminism. There's no injustice there.

[Individuality-ness]

Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female-on-male rape when:
1) The issue, in this topic in particular, is the social and cultural factors involved in the widespread persistence of vast percentages of males who actually believe that some actions (which legally fall into the category of rape) are not actually "rape", or they wrongfully believe that certain actions or attitudes from women indirectly implied consent to sex.
2) Feminism is a social and political movement focused almost entirely on the problems regarding conscious and unconscious prejudices towards women in human civilization.

Actually, sexual acts should be considered consensual unless one partner directly & verbally objects to said sexual act.

No. No no no no no no no no no no. Sex acts should be considered nonconsensual unless the partner gives consent on their own free will.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

The subtleties in her wording strike me as the most provocative. Arguing that men need to be trained not to do something implies that, in the absence of such training, men are naturally inclined to do that something. It's arguing that men, as you said, are rapists by default, and will be rapists unless steered in the right direction through some form of intervention. I don't like how it returns to the old assumption that men have instincts that need to be curbed, just as we often hear "boys will be boys" tossed around to explain away poor behaviour.

I'm not flat-out disagreeing with her, though. It's important to have an open dialogue about sexual autonomy, but singling out a particular sex and phrasing it the way she did is entirely wrong, in my opinion.

That is precisely an important part of the problem. I would add to it that it is also insulting to ignore the fact that women commit acts of rape, domestic violence and abuse as well and yet this is almost never referred to when feminists are talking about rape. Particularly for survivors who have suffered at the hands of women this is an insulting thing to hear.

It would have been better to have said 'people' rather than men.

I agree, singling out men in the article both lets female rapists completely off the hook, and makes it very easy to be discriminatory and insulting, something which the author took no steps to avoid. Insulting the group that they intend to persuade and change is completely counterproductive, and completely undermines the intended impact. In some ways, I actually do question whether the article was meant to have a positive impact, or whether it was intended primarily to grasp readers and lead anyone disagreeing with the tone to be labelled a rapist sympathiser. If the intended effect is a lot of hits, the article has been a success. If this was an earnest attempt at opening discussion about education to prevent rape, it has failed spectacularly to generate support.

This.

[Conserative Morality]

But rape isn't a womens' rights issue. Women being the main targets of something doesn't make it a womens' rights issue.

It's a women's rights issue because
1. Women are being told that they should not be people in order to prevent rape.
2. Women who ARE raped are called sluts and are otherwise shamed.
3. There's the misconception that certain behaviors = a woman "asking for it".
4. Prosecution rates are low because women either don't report, the police are assholes, the defense makes her look like a slut...

Men get raped too, and they have their own set of problems. But most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men.

Considering that the FBI didn't update its guidelines regarding rape to allow male rape until 2012, I might question the former.

[Individuality-ness]

It's a women's rights issue because
1. Women are being told that they should not be people in order to prevent rape.
2. Women who ARE raped are called sluts and are otherwise shamed.
3. There's the misconception that certain behaviors = a woman "asking for it".
4. Prosecution rates are low because women either don't report, the police are assholes, the defense makes her look like a slut...

Men get raped too, and they have their own set of problems. But most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men.

So simply because the majority of victims are women it's a womens' rights issue? Then all crimes in which the majority of victims are women should be womens' rights issues.

You totally missed the point.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female-on-male rape when:
1) The issue, in this topic in particular, is the social and cultural factors involved in the widespread persistence of vast percentages of males who actually believe that some actions (which legally fall into the category of rape) are not actually "rape", or they wrongfully believe that certain actions or attitudes from women indirectly implied consent to sex.
2) Feminism is a social and political movement focused almost entirely on the problems regarding conscious and unconscious prejudices towards women in human civilization.

Actually, sexual acts should be considered consensual unless one partner directly & verbally objects to said sexual act.

Nope, just nope.

Sexual acts should be considered non-consensual until consent is given.

[Golambia]

With statistics like these, you deny the fact that people need to be trained not to rape.

As for the use of "men" in the title, that's because it's ingrained in our culture that it's okay for men to rape. It isn't ingrained in our culture that it's okay for women to rape.

[Cannot think of a name]

It's a women's rights issue because
1. Women are being told that they should not be people in order to prevent rape.
2. Women who ARE raped are called sluts and are otherwise shamed.
3. There's the misconception that certain behaviors = a woman "asking for it".
4. Prosecution rates are low because women either don't report, the police are assholes, the defense makes her look like a slut...

Men get raped too, and they have their own set of problems. But most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men.

So simply because the majority of victims are women it's a womens' rights issue? Then all crimes in which the majority of victims are women should be womens' rights issues.

It's a fun game to watch the theatrics approach to arguing sometimes, where essentially there's a good faith poster who explains the nuances of a subject and breaks down contributing factors and then the theatric responder takes a random singular element, applies that criteria universally separate of the other points, and then asks a ridiculous presumption based on that, mostly just to see how long it lasts before someone calls it out or if the theatric responder succeeds and no one can remember the initial point when they're ten pages deep going, "No, I'm not saying that all bees are less than an inch, where are you getting that? Why the fuck are we talking about bees?"

But it's especially nice when the theatric responder makes what they think is a hysterical suggestion that instead has a degree of merit and doesn't realize it.

[New Edom]

Oh I see. Feminists don't have the responsibility to talk about female on male rape or female on female rape. There's justice for you folks. They don't care about anything but what happens to women.

You read what he posted.

And it's true. Feminism is concerned with what happens to women. That's why it's called feminism. There's no injustice there.

Since feminists generally propose that they are the only people qualified to speak on the subject of gender relations and smear anyone else who tries to--yes it is injustice. Saying "men can prevent rape" proposes a false dichotomy.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

Actually, sexual acts should be considered consensual unless one partner directly & verbally objects to said sexual act.

Nope, just nope.

Sexual acts should be considered non-consensual until consent is given.

With notarized signatures, no doubt.

[Individuality-ness]

It's a women's rights issue because
1. Women are being told that they should not be people in order to prevent rape.
2. Women who ARE raped are called sluts and are otherwise shamed.
3. There's the misconception that certain behaviors = a woman "asking for it".
4. Prosecution rates are low because women either don't report, the police are assholes, the defense makes her look like a slut...

Men get raped too, and they have their own set of problems. But most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men.

Considering that the FBI didn't update its guidelines regarding rape to allow male rape until 2012, I might question the former.

Which one?

[New England and The Maritimes]

Nope, just nope.

Sexual acts should be considered non-consensual until consent is given.

With notarized signatures, no doubt.

If she doesn't say no, she's not saying yes. Yes means yes, and only yes can mean yes.

[New Edom]

(Image)

With statistics like these, you deny the fact that people need to be trained not to rape.

As for the use of "men" in the title, that's because it's ingrained in our culture that it's okay for men to rape. It isn't ingrained in our culture that it's okay for women to rape.

The problem is that it is ingrained in many cultures that women don't rape, are so unlikely to rape that it is an insignificant statistic.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You read what he posted.

And it's true. Feminism is concerned with what happens to women. That's why it's called feminism. There's no injustice there.

Since feminists generally propose that they are the only people qualified to speak on the subject of gender relations and smear anyone else who tries to--yes it is injustice. Saying "men can prevent rape" proposes a false dichotomy.

Well, men can prevent rape. By not raping. See how easy that is?

Women can prevent rape. By not raping.

I'm not sure what is a false dichotomy about this.

[Free Council Communes]

Actually, sexual acts should be considered consensual unless one partner directly & verbally objects to said sexual act.

I don't even...

This is why we need to educate people about rape and consent.

This post. This very post.

This is why.

So all I said is that consent must be withdrawn during or before said sexual act and in a way that makes it clear to the partner that they do not wish to continue. If you would like to present a logical argument then please do so; otherwise I suggest you stop making yourself look foolish.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

(Image)

With statistics like these, you deny the fact that people need to be trained not to rape.

As for the use of "men" in the title, that's because it's ingrained in our culture that it's okay for men to rape. It isn't ingrained in our culture that it's okay for women to rape.

What culture ingrained you to believe it's okay for men to rape? Does it grow in a Petri dish?

[Nadkor]

You know, what's disappointing but not actually that surprising is just how massively the groups "people who are opposed to education about rape and about consent" and "people who need educating about rape and about consent" overlap. It's incredible.

What's also astonishing is just how open and almost proud of this they seem.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Nope, just nope.

Sexual acts should be considered non-consensual until consent is given.

With notarized signatures, no doubt.

We have this handy tool called communication. We can use it, you know.

[Cannot think of a name]

Nope, just nope.

Sexual acts should be considered non-consensual until consent is given.

With notarized signatures, no doubt.

If you are concerned enough that you cannot interpret consent that you think the only way to be sure is to get it in writing, perhaps you should.

[New Edom]

Since feminists generally propose that they are the only people qualified to speak on the subject of gender relations and smear anyone else who tries to--yes it is injustice. Saying "men can prevent rape" proposes a false dichotomy.

Well, men can prevent rape. By not raping. See how easy that is?

Women can prevent rape. By not raping.

I'm not sure what is a false dichotomy about this.

My only concern is that rather typically it is only men who are referred to. I would like women to be referred to as well, by it being changed to 'people'. That's all. I don't think it should be assumed that 'men' also includes women.

[Liriena]

EDIT: My despicable internet connection producing double posts again.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

With notarized signatures, no doubt.

We have this handy tool called communication. We can use it, you know.

Until the "he said / she said" hits a courtroom.

[Liriena]

I agree, singling out men in the article both lets female rapists completely off the hook, and makes it very easy to be discriminatory and insulting, something which the author took no steps to avoid.

Maybe the author only wanted to address male-on-female rape and the social and cultural intricacies surrounding it, something of which she was the victim.
On that basis, her touching the subject of female-on-male rape is unnecessary. It was obviously not rape in general what was on her mind and, really, arguing from her silence on female-on-male rape is pretty dishonest. By that logic, I could argue that some random victim of female-on-male rape talking only about female-on-male rape is discriminatory of male-on-female rape.

Insulting the group that they intend to persuade and change is completely counterproductive, and completely undermines the intended impact.

It is not particularly insulting when statistics insulting show a critical situation regarding male-on-female rape, especially social attitudes towards some forms of male-on-female rape.
I myself am not offended, because I can see that her arguments, while inflammatory at first glance, are not entirely without merit in reality.

In some ways, I actually do question whether the article was meant to have a positive impact, or whether it was intended primarily to grasp readers and lead anyone disagreeing with the tone to be labelled a rapist sympathiser.

In some ways, I find that sort of speculation on your part useless and unnecessary.

If this was an earnest attempt at opening discussion about education to prevent rape, it has failed spectacularly to generate support.

After reading through this thread for the past couple of hours, I think you are either shamelessly lying, or you haven't payed attention.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Well, men can prevent rape. By not raping. See how easy that is?

Women can prevent rape. By not raping.

I'm not sure what is a false dichotomy about this.

My only concern is that rather typically it is only men who are referred to. I would like women to be referred to as well, by it being changed to 'people'. That's all. I don't think it should be assumed that 'men' also includes women.

Well, most men seem to believe it is okay to force women to have sex with them. That makes this problem fall primarily on this narrative.