Falkland/Malvinas Islands Debate- Your Opinion?

[Farnhamia]

The US has no air bases in Brazil. We have a Naval Support Detachment in São Paulo.

I wasn't saying that. I was talking about how Britain could (or couldn't, given the realities) use Brazilian airbases during a hypothetical conflict.

I misunderstood.

[Priory Academy USSR]

I wasn't saying that. I was talking about how Britain could (or couldn't, given the realities) use Brazilian airbases during a hypothetical conflict.

I misunderstood.

No harm done.

[Imperiatom]

I suppose if we really wanted to find out, someone with Arma II could download map mods, AI overhauls, army units overhauls, naval overhauls, etc. You would have to basically want to have your computer commit suicide, however.

And regarding the issue on whether the British would be able to re-take such and island, the US, France, Germany, pretty much all of NATO would provide supplies to the British (like in the actual Falklands War). Supply lines wouldn't be terribly overstretched. Additionally, if the navy were to commit most of its subs, frigates, destroyers, and the helicopter carrier, I imagine that the Argentinians would stand little hope of withstanding the naval and aerial barrages. And the Argentinians would be especially screwed should France or the US get involved militarily.

Arma 2 is a bad for this sort of simulation. Something like War in the Pacific would be better.

In the actual Falklands War, AFAIK only the Americans directly gave material support (that actually enabled the British to even get to the Falklands in the first place).

we have more nuclear submarines than they have ships. Plus if war was declared we would send all of our fighter aircraft to the Island airbase and strike their airbases on the mainland.

Not going to happen. By the time most of the aircraft have staged through a dozen or so airbases, the islands would have fallen, or the airbase knocked out. If neither of them have happened, the war would be over anyways.

If its a one way rip typhoon it has a range of 3600 miles plus then 3 drop tanks so it gets to ascension island in about 5 hours, refuel then another 3-4 hours to the islands once the pilots are at base would not take more than 10 hours all together, ground crew and munitions would follow on transport plans another 10 hours behind. so defiantly in time to make a difference. they will have such a plan in place to do this.

[Kryskov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_ships_of_the_Argentine_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almirante_Brown_class_destroyer

Also, logistical advantage wouldn't be that great, considering that Argentina can't supply their ships in their own ports...

[Machtergreifung]

Source?

Even so, the logistical position of the Argentine's is marginaly better than that of the British.

How so? They have a single Logistics Ship. The Royal Navy has the RFA dedicated to Logistics and Support, which operates 11 Repelishment, Repair, Casulty clearing and Oiler ships, 3 landing ships and 6 Sealift ships.

Why would Argentina need such a replenishment fleet when it's own ports are at most a days sail away from the battlezone?

[Democratic Koyro]

How so? They have a single Logistics Ship. The Royal Navy has the RFA dedicated to Logistics and Support, which operates 11 Repelishment, Repair, Casulty clearing and Oiler ships, 3 landing ships and 6 Sealift ships.

Why would Argentina need such a replenishment fleet when it's own ports are at most a days sail away from the battlezone?

They can't supply their fleet when its docked in port. How can they hope to supply it for a military operation? Unless they want to go with North Korean-style military logistics.

[Salandriagado]

Also, try looking at Argentina's fleet. Their 4 "destroyers" are actually frigates, and... "The Argentine Navy struggles to meet maintenance and training requirements because of financial problems and import restrictions. The Almirante Brown class are reported to be short of spares and suffering engine problems, plus all their ordnance is past its expiry date."

The muscle of the Argentinian Navy, everyone. If Argentina were to commit ALL of its navy, it could be wiped out by 22 helicopters in maybe a couple hours.

Source?

Even so, the logistical position of the Argentine's is marginaly better than that of the British.

When the planes you're supplying are from the 1960s-80s and you're going up against Eurofighters and modern battleships, it doesn't matter how good your logistics are. I also take it that you've never heard of the RFA?

[Imperiatom]

The subs are armed with up to 38 cruse missiles so they don't have to go anywhere near the shore and secondly they have a sonar signature smaller than a dolphin so the chance of being detected is so small.

Have fun finding anything to shoot at if you can't get near the shore, because that's where the Argentine fleet would be.

A Cruse missile has a range of almost 2500km you don't have to be anywhere near the shore to fire them like i said. we use satellite pictures to find them and then feed the position to the sub then BOOM!

[Machtergreifung]

Arma 2 is a bad for this sort of simulation. Something like War in the Pacific would be better.

In the actual Falklands War, AFAIK only the Americans directly gave material support (that actually enabled the British to even get to the Falklands in the first place).





Not going to happen. By the time most of the aircraft have staged through a dozen or so airbases, the islands would have fallen, or the airbase knocked out. If neither of them have happened, the war would be over anyways.

If its a one way rip typhoon it has a range of 3600 miles plus then 3 drop tanks so it gets to ascension island in about 5 hours, refuel then another 3-4 hours to the islands once the pilots are at base would not take more than 10 hours all together, ground crew and munitions would follow on transport plans another 10 hours behind. so defiantly in time to make a difference. they will have such a plan in place to do this.

Throwing pilots and airframes into combat after ten (more like twelve) hours of non-stop flight is a sure way to wreck both pilots and aircraft.

Why would Argentina need such a replenishment fleet when it's own ports are at most a days sail away from the battlezone?

They can't supply their fleet when its docked in port. How can they hope to supply it for a military operation?

That is indeed a damning statement. From reading it, it seems that the government doesn't want to fund replacements. Assuming that Argentina was to go for another grab at the islands, no doubt they would make sure their ships actually worked.

[Salandriagado]

The US has no air bases in Brazil. We have a Naval Support Detachment in São Paulo.

I wasn't saying that. I was talking about how Britain could (or couldn't, given the realities) use Brazilian airbases during a hypothetical conflict.

We don't need to. We have a perfectly adequate one on the Falklands.

[Machtergreifung]

Source?

Even so, the logistical position of the Argentine's is marginaly better than that of the British.

When the planes you're supplying are from the 1960s-80s and you're going up against Eurofighters and modern battleships, it doesn't matter how good your logistics are. I also take it that you've never heard of the RFA?

The RFA still has to make a trans-Atlantic journey.

I'd also like to point out that my hypothetical Argentine invasion was dependant on a first-strike knocking out RAF presence on the Falklands.

[Imperiatom]

If its a one way rip typhoon it has a range of 3600 miles plus then 3 drop tanks so it gets to ascension island in about 5 hours, refuel then another 3-4 hours to the islands once the pilots are at base would not take more than 10 hours all together, ground crew and munitions would follow on transport plans another 10 hours behind. so defiantly in time to make a difference. they will have such a plan in place to do this.

Throwing pilots and airframes into combat after ten (more like twelve) hours of non-stop flight is a sure way to wreck both pilots and aircraft.

They can't supply their fleet when its docked in port. How can they hope to supply it for a military operation?

That is indeed a damning statement. From reading it, it seems that the government doesn't want to fund replacements. Assuming that Argentina was to go for another grab at the islands, no doubt they would make sure their ships actually worked.

Planes would be fine and i know for a fact the pilots would be up for the challenge, they are some of the best in the world with one of the best aircraft. Civilian students such as yourself might imagine it to be hard due to your comfortable existence but anyone who has been in the military would find it not too difficult. pilots have coped with far more in the past.

[Machtergreifung]

Throwing pilots and airframes into combat after ten (more like twelve) hours of non-stop flight is a sure way to wreck both pilots and aircraft.



That is indeed a damning statement. From reading it, it seems that the government doesn't want to fund replacements. Assuming that Argentina was to go for another grab at the islands, no doubt they would make sure their ships actually worked.

Planes would be fine and i know for a fact the pilots would be up for the challenge, they are some of the best in the world with one of the best aircraft. Civilian students such as yourself might imagine it to be hard due to your comfortable existence but anyone who has been in the military would find it not too difficult. pilots have coped with far more in the past.

Ah, the good old "Civies don't understand." argument against a valid point. Have fun sending tired pilots in worn planes out for extended combat operations. Even more so considering how maintainace heavy the Eurofighter is.

[Democratic Koyro]

Throwing pilots and airframes into combat after ten (more like twelve) hours of non-stop flight is a sure way to wreck both pilots and aircraft.



That is indeed a damning statement. From reading it, it seems that the government doesn't want to fund replacements. Assuming that Argentina was to go for another grab at the islands, no doubt they would make sure their ships actually worked.

Planes would be fine and i know for a fact the pilots would be up for the challenge, they are some of the best in the world with one of the best aircraft. Civilian students such as yourself might imagine it to be hard due to your comfortable existence but anyone who has been in the military would find it not too difficult. pilots have coped with far more in the past.

There is only so long a pilot will put up with having to shit himself, and no, im not being funny. The Eurofighter simply isn't built for such long-range missions. It can do them yes, but its not built for them.

[Imperiatom]

When the planes you're supplying are from the 1960s-80s and you're going up against Eurofighters and modern battleships, it doesn't matter how good your logistics are. I also take it that you've never heard of the RFA?

The RFA still has to make a trans-Atlantic journey.

I'd also like to point out that my hypothetical Argentine invasion was dependant on a first-strike knocking out RAF presence on the Falklands.

It would be very hard to carry out they only have 8 sub standard fighter aircraft the 4 typhoons we have already would quickly gain air superiority over that enabling them to intercept and kill the ground attack planes.

[Salandriagado]

When the planes you're supplying are from the 1960s-80s and you're going up against Eurofighters and modern battleships, it doesn't matter how good your logistics are. I also take it that you've never heard of the RFA?

The RFA still has to make a trans-Atlantic journey.

Except that it doesn't. Because it currently has at least three of its ships sitting on the far side of the Atlantic anyway (there are also a number of other ships which would be prime candidates for being over there - having spent a large proportion of their operational history over there - for which deployment information is not available (or at least, I couldn't find it).

I'd also like to point out that my hypothetical Argentine invasion was dependant on a first-strike knocking out RAF presence on the Falklands.

Sorry, I thought we were discussing the real world, not fantasy.

[Imperiatom]

Planes would be fine and i know for a fact the pilots would be up for the challenge, they are some of the best in the world with one of the best aircraft. Civilian students such as yourself might imagine it to be hard due to your comfortable existence but anyone who has been in the military would find it not too difficult. pilots have coped with far more in the past.

There is only so long a pilot will put up with having to shit himself, and no, im not being funny. The Eurofighter simply isn't built for such long-range missions. It can do them yes, but its not built for them.

I know its not ideal but they would get it done, when you sign up to defend your country you don't let small issues like that get in your way.

[Kryskov]

Ok. Assuming that their ships work in tip-top shape, and assuming their logistics would be superior to the UK's, it would still be outnumbered and out-gunned. It would be taken down easily.

Also, British air presence would likely have to be in the form of the Eurofighters and the helicopters carried by the ships. I don't believe that the Argentines could simply land and take out the planes with the explosives or whatever. The radar presence on such a small area would be too great to just sneak in. I think if this unlikely event would happen, the helicopters and navy could barrage and clear out the airstrip, and also land troops there. Another thing would be that the Argentinian defenders would have to either cover every part of the island with machine gun nests or set up an incredulous amount of anti-air equipment to avoid troop insertion.

And regarding plane and pilot wear, you could simply resupply and repair the planes at Ascension and have the naval group stop and drop off fresher pilots. And then land fresh ones at the air base once its retaken. And not even use more than 100 men.

[Priory Academy USSR]

The RFA still has to make a trans-Atlantic journey.

EDIT: I failed at reading. Editting in proper reply now.

I'd also like to point out that my hypothetical Argentine invasion was dependant on a first-strike knocking out RAF presence on the Falklands.

Sorry, I thought we were discussing the real world, not fantasy.

We were discussing real life? Seriously, the only way to make the hypothetical conflict interesting is to handicap Britain in every single way. Otherwise it's a pushover.

[Prizyetsa]

Damn, I voted Argentina hoping to be the combo breaker... Oh well

I think they should be British so long the people want to be.

[Imperiatom]

Planes would be fine and i know for a fact the pilots would be up for the challenge, they are some of the best in the world with one of the best aircraft. Civilian students such as yourself might imagine it to be hard due to your comfortable existence but anyone who has been in the military would find it not too difficult. pilots have coped with far more in the past.

Ah, the good old "Civies don't understand." argument against a valid point. Have fun sending tired pilots in worn planes out for extended combat operations. Even more so considering how maintainace heavy the Eurofighter is.

Ever heard of the battle of britian? Those tired old pilots and worn out planes saved all of our butts after 4 months of continual combat. If you knew any facts the typhoon has one of the lowest maintenance downtime of any jet fighter.

[Minnysota]

lolpeoplesuggestingArgentinacouldtakeovertheFalklandsandholdofftheBrits

[Machtergreifung]

Seeing as we keep nitpicking over issues, let's do a proper staff exercise on this.

Argentine plan in the inital stages.

1. Infiltrators land on the Falklands with the goal of disabling the RAF aircraft on the island. For the sake of discussion, assume one SF team with anti-tank rifles knock out the aircraft while they are scrambling.
2. Argentine Air Force bombs RAF base. Argentine Navy supports landing operations.
3. Argentine ground troops take the island.

(All three would be difficult, but not impossible)

Follow-up.

1. Argentine troops dig in on the island. Land based SSM and SAM missiles flown in to the Falklands.
2. Argentine Navy stays in coastal waters under LBA umbrella acting as a fleet-in-being.
3. British Navy must then engage on Argentina's terms.

My own evaluation is that unless everything goes very well in the first three stages of the operation, the plan is a bust. The critical factor is knocking out the RAF aircraft and base right off the bat. After that, things start to swing more in the advantage of Argentina.

Is the plan feasable? Probably not. I wouldn't want to be the one to order it. Is Britain this unbeatable power who will never lose the islands? No, it isn't. Could Britain re-take the islands? Probably, though the cost would be steep.

[Zoroastrian Kingdom of Eranshahr]

If we give parliamentary representation to all British island-based protectorates, wouldn't that present problems if all the various territories went against the grain? Tristan Da Cunha? All those other ones? There would be fist fights at the woolsack!

[Minnysota]

I'd also like to point out that my hypothetical Argentine invasion was dependant on a first-strike knocking out RAF presence on the Falklands.

Good luck with that, bro.