Where are the Reparations

[Sitspot]

They are valid, how else do you determine who deserves reparations and who pays for them... Otherwise your idea isn't reparations...
You determine who pays for them by looking at the perpetrator of the wrong - the Federal government.
Who determine who deserves them by looking at who has been harmed by the polices of the Federal government , either by the institution of slavery, or more to the point, the subsequent legal policies that harmed blacks.

And there is a format available to anyone who feels they have been harmed. They can take their case to court. This is how reparation should be pursued. There is no reason to single out one group for special treatment as this avenue is open to all who think they have been wronged in any way.

[Jocabia]

Questions:
1. What if you are the decendent of a Black Slave-owner....
2. What if you have both slaves owners and slaves in your ancestry?

Both of these questions focus on the wrong subject. Slave owners are not the issue.

They are valid, how else do you determine who deserves reparations and who pays for them... Otherwise your idea isn't reparations...

You determine who pays for them by looking at the perpetrator of the wrong - the Federal government.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

The government allowed it. The government did not recognize the rights of those enslaved. It did not consider them citizens long after slavery ended. It allowed for white people to kill black people with impugnity, to steal their land, to rape and pillage. It was systemic. That system was the government. It was promoted by, endorsed by and perpetuated by the government.

[Free Soviets]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

the government both used slave labor and enforced laws that created and maintained slavery

anyways, how 'bout them jim crow era government approved thefts and murders?

[Zandan]

Questions:
1. What if you are the decendent of a Black Slave-owner....
2. What if you have both slaves owners and slaves in your ancestry?

Both of these questions focus on the wrong subject. Slave owners are not the issue.

They are valid, how else do you determine who deserves reparations and who pays for them... Otherwise your idea isn't reparations...

You determine who pays for them by looking at the perpetrator of the wrong - the Federal government.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

The government allowed it. The government did not recognize the rights of those enslaved. It did not consider them citizens long after slavery ended. It allowed for white people to kill black people with impugnity, to steal their land, to rape and pillage. It was systemic. That system was the government. It was promoted by, endorsed by and perpetuated by the government.

And who put the people in the government that approved it? The people did. So this all circles around and the government doesn't pay anything, the people do.

[Jello Biafra]

Questions:
1. What if you are the decendent of a Black Slave-owner....
2. What if you have both slaves owners and slaves in your ancestry?

Both of these questions focus on the wrong subject. Slave owners are not the issue.

My thought.

How far back in history should we go? Shold we all sue the German gov for the second world war, easpecily anybody who lost a chippy? What about those who's ancesters where killed by my own country when we bomb Dresden to pieces?

Nope, it's all wrong. This life we live it is often not fair, suck it up, go on living.

It would depend on the particular government in question. The German government that perpetrated the second world war is not the same government that exists today, as the former government was dissolved by the Allies. (This doesn't mean that individuals couldn't still be sued or prosecuted, though.) Also, there really isn't an international civil court system in place, so it would be highly difficult for someone from one country to sue the government of another country.

[Sitspot]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

the government both used slave labor and enforced laws that created and maintained slavery

anyways, how 'bout them jim crow era government approved thefts and murders?

They existed and were evil, but they affected different people to different degrees. Discrimination still exists and effects different people to different degrees. Luckily there is a remedy provided by the Government. It is called the legal system, people who have been damaged can pursue reparation in court.

[Jello Biafra]

And who put the people in the government that approved it? The people did. So this all circles around and the government doesn't pay anything, the people do.

The government is an entity that outlives individual legislators or voters (Iin most cases. There have historically been some short-lived states). There's no "circling around" about it.

[Kashindahar]

The government allowed it.

If I don't intervene in someone trying to shoot you, have I tried to shoot you?

The government did not recognize the rights of those enslaved. It did not consider them citizens long after slavery ended.

Which is part of having been treated kind of shittily.

It allowed for white people to kill black people with impugnity, to steal their land, to rape and pillage.

But it didn't do those things. It did not perpetrate those acts.

It was systemic. That system was the government.

Just a semantics quibble, but you're missing a premise here.

It was promoted by, endorsed by and perpetuated by the government.

Did the federal government force people to own slaves? Did it put out literature saying that slave ownership is "pretty awesome, you should totally give it a whirl"? Or did it just stand by and not stop it?

If the latter, in what sense can it be said that the federal government took an active hand in slavery, that it perpetrated it?

[Jocabia]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

the government both used slave labor and enforced laws that created and maintained slavery

anyways, how 'bout them jim crow era government approved thefts and murders?

They existed and were evil, but they affected different people to different degrees. Discrimination still exists and effects different people to different degrees. Luckily there is a remedy provided by the Government. It is called the legal system, people who have been damaged can pursue reparation in court.

No, actually, you can't. In order to sue the government, guess whose permission you have to have? I'll give you three tries.

[Jocabia]

If I don't intervene in someone trying to shoot you, have I tried to shoot you?

However, if you arm them and not me. If you punish me for shooting them and not them for shooting me, then you were absolutely complicit.

If I and another person enter your home. We both have guns, but you put a gun to only my head, disarm me and then tell the other guy to shoot me. If he does it, you're going to prison, buddy.

Which is part of having been treated kind of shittily.

Kind of?

But it didn't do those things. It did not perpetrate those acts.

Actually, on some occasions it actively engaged in those acts. On all other occasions, by making it legal or simply refusing to protect those it denied the right to protect themselves to, it was complicit.

Just a semantics quibble, but you're missing a premise here.

No, I'm not.

Did the federal government force people to own slaves? Did it put out literature saying that slave ownership is "pretty awesome, you should totally give it a whirl"? Or did it just stand by and not stop it?

If the latter, in what sense can it be said that the federal government took an active hand in slavery, that it perpetrated it?

It, for example, counted them in a census so that it gave more power to slave-owning populations. It made laws helping to capture escaped slaves and punishing them. It created a support structure that perpetuated slavery.

I'm not kidding. Are you really this ignorant of history?

[Kashindahar]

Just a semantics quibble, but you're missing a premise here.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are. You're jumping from one definition of systemic to another without showing the transition.

And the rest doesn't show how the federal government is anything more than an accomplice, so, no, it didn't perpetrate the act of slavery, which was what I was objecting to in the first place.

[Kashindahar]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

[Tysagan]

Is this reparations for slaves or for blacks?

If it is for slaves, then there's no way to prove that any of your ancestors were slaves, the United States Census does not track descent from slaves or slave owners, instead relies on self-reported racial categories. Some slaves were former slave owners, some were Indians, some were other races. How do you decide who gets the reparations without proof of your family being slaves?

Yes, blacks were treated like shit. But so was everyone else that wasn't white(even some whites were treated like shit). So who gets them and who pays them?

[Jocabia]

Just a semantics quibble, but you're missing a premise here.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are. You're jumping from one definition of systemic to another without showing the transition.

The system I'm talking about when talking about "systemic" is referring to the government, the system that promotes and provides the infrastructure for these wrongs. I agree that I can and have used it differently in other posts or even other parts of posts, but right there not only did I use it to refer to broad government actions, but I pointed out that I was doing so.

And the rest doesn't show how the federal government is anything more than an accomplice, so, no, it didn't perpetrate the act of slavery, which was what I was objecting to in the first place.

Being an accomplice makes you guilty, my friend.

Meanwhile, you continue to ignore that the government DID own slaves, DID steal land, DID kill black people, and DID promote and engage in the systemic (now, see there is a different usage) racism.

[Sitspot]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

the government both used slave labor and enforced laws that created and maintained slavery

anyways, how 'bout them jim crow era government approved thefts and murders?

They existed and were evil, but they affected different people to different degrees. Discrimination still exists and effects different people to different degrees. Luckily there is a remedy provided by the Government. It is called the legal system, people who have been damaged can pursue reparation in court.

No, actually, you can't. In order to sue the government, guess whose permission you have to have? I'll give you three tries.

In which case all the legal argument is settled, and the niceties of whether it is still the same U.S. government are irrelevant as they only matter from a legal perspective.
So we are left with the moral argument, which leaves slave descendants in the same boat as everyone whose ancestors were wronged in the past by the misdeeds of any Government.

[Jocabia]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

I don't know what your country is, but I don't think you have the background to make any assumptions about my knowledge of your nation.

[Zandan]

Meanwhile, you continue to ignore that the government DID own slaves, DID steal land, DID kill black people, and DID promote and engage in the systemic (now, see there is a different usage) racism.

The government did not own slaves, the people of the government did. You seem to be making the mistake in thinking that the government is a living breathing thing. The people of the government stole land, the people killed black people(among other races), and the people promoted and engaged in the systemic racism.

[Kashindahar]

And the rest doesn't show how the federal government is anything more than an accomplice, so, no, it didn't perpetrate the act of slavery, which was what I was objecting to in the first place.

Being an accomplice makes you guilty, my friend.

Of being an accomplice. Being an accomplice to murder doesn't mean that you perpetrated an act of murder.

Meanwhile, you continue to ignore that the government DID own slaves, DID steal land, DID kill black people, and DID promote and engage in the[sic] systemic (now, see there is a different usage) racism.

Sure. But to extrapolate from this to all to say that the government perpetrated all slavery is simply false.

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

I don't know what your country is, but I don't think you have the background to make any assumptions about my knowledge of your nation.

In what way does that also not apply to yourself?

[Zandan]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the idea that blacks have been treated kind of shittily throughout history, but the government didn't force anyone to own slaves, and thus it wasn't the perpetrator.

the government both used slave labor and enforced laws that created and maintained slavery

anyways, how 'bout them jim crow era government approved thefts and murders?

The Jim Crow laws were at a state and local level, not federal. The federal government put a stop to them with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

[The Norse Hordes]

In what way does that also not apply to yourself?

Because youre showing in spades that you have no grasp of American history in this very thread.

[Kashindahar]

In what way does that also not apply to yourself?

Because youre showing in spades that you have no grasp of American history in this very thread.

That really has nothing to do with whether or not I have the ability to see if Jocabia knows anything about my country.

[Sdaeriji]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

If your country is on the planet Earth, I probably know more about it than you.

[Kashindahar]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

If your country is on the planet Earth, I probably know more about it than you.

Go nuts with that.

[Sdaeriji]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

If your country is on the planet Earth, I probably know more about it than you.

Go nuts with that.

Should I hazard a guess based on your NS nation?

[Kashindahar]

And yes, I'm "this ignorant" of US history, but I sincerely doubt that you have the foggiest notion of anything that happened in the last 150 years in my country, so I'll try not to hold it against you.

If your country is on the planet Earth, I probably know more about it than you.

Go nuts with that.

Should I hazard a guess based on your NS nation?

See above.