7 Worst Things About Being Male

[Kleomentia]

The only thing im experiencing is horny-ness, but not at self destructive levels. And it should be normal seeing how i am a adolescent.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation,

Multiple people find his behavior objectionable. Since his primary defense has been to say that everyone around him likes his behavior, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for multiple people to express that they don't like it...this way he knows it's not just one random person, but it's actually a commonly-shared feeling.

This isn't "ganging up" any more than it is "ganging up" when a lot of people agree that calling people "faggots" is considered rude.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

I don't think any of us are confused (or surprised) by the fact that he is annoyed. Indeed, his reaction is precisely the same reaction I've had every time this topic has come up, ever, because there's always at least one dude who freaks the fuck out over this sort of thing.

Hopefully this will help generate some empathy. Guys often wonder how women can get so darn upset over this petty little subject...well, look how upset y'all are, lads! See how upsetting it can be?

Except, again, if someone gets upset by this, I fuck off and apologize. Like an adult should.

[Pillea]

And you, you get it.

It was quite a humbling process for me to accept my current position. I really had to look at myself objectively and become aware of the sexist attitudes I was perpetuating for it to really click. And thank you. <3

Seriously, I feel you on the RadFem! sentiment though, the Men CAN'T be Feminists sentiment is tiresome. Most men are not feminists, some can be and indeed are.

[Nailed to the Perch]

I missed this post at first. Please do not tell strangers "give us a smile." It may be an expression, but it's an obnoxious expression, and it will quite honestly make a lot of women think, "oh geez, not another douchebag." Since it doesn't sound like your aim is to come off as a douchebag, I really recommend cutting that phrase out of your vocabulary unless it's directed at someone you already know well.

Obnoxious to you, the ladies here in Portland don't seem to mind it a bit. I have yet, despite going to a great many bars, and starting a great many conversations, have a single lady do anything but laugh at the man in the wheelchair, or say "hello".

...because women definitely share every one of their innermost thoughts with the dude they just met.

I have had guys command me to smile. I generally respond by making a little forced smile and then getting away from him as politely but quickly as I can, because I don't like conflict. I have never said, "Dude, I am not your performing monkey. Please do not order me to be happy at you," but I can assure you that I've definitely THOUGHT it.

So you have a choice. You can hold to your position that your choice to use a particular phrase is vital, and tell yourself it's super-nice of you to keep using it after multiple women have told you that a lot of women really, really hate that phrase, or you can consider that actual niceness tends to involve listening to how people WANT you to be nice to them. Again, I'm absolutely cool with you offering to buy people drinks because they look like they're having a bad day, and then leaving them alone if they don't want your drinks. That is nice. All I'm saying is that opening with "PERFORM EMOTIONS FOR ME" is a lot less nice than just saying, "Hey, you look like you've had a rough day - your next drink's on me, if you want it."

Think of it this way - maybe you think the nickname "Susie" is a super nice, attractive, good name. So you decide, to be nice, that every time you meet a Susan or a Suzanne or a Susannah, you're going to call them "Susie." Several women named Susan, Suzanne, and Susannah tell you, "Actually, we fucking hate being called Susie. Why don't you just ask us what name we'd like to go by?" What thing does a genuinely nice person do in response? Does he say, "But no other Susies have complained! I think Susie is nice! It's a good nickname! I'm being nice when I call you Susie, dammit"? Or does he say, "Huh. I didn't realize lots of people don't like the name 'Susie.' I will keep that in mind and hold off on calling people Susie until I know them well enough to know that they're cool with that nickname"?

[Choronzon]

Jesus christ on a pogo stick. I keep forgetting sometimes why I don't identify as a feminist. Then I see this shit and the glaring fucking neon sign slaps me in the face as to why I don't.

I both identify as a feminist and have been heavily involved with a women's studies department, and I still get what you mean. At times its a fucking echo chamber on par with conservative Christians.

[Bottle]

Er, what logic are you using there?

The post you quoted includes me specifically and clearly saying that you have every right to keep doing what you're doing even if people find it rotten.

Because you're saying "people", as if I'm not one of those.

What?

Are you seriously arguing that my use of "people" in that sentence should be read as excluding you from personhood?

You're saying "many folks" as if you, and your feelings, outweigh my experiences, and my feelings.

No, I'm very clearly not. The fact that other people have feelings that DIFFER from yours does not imply supremacy. I've said, repeatedly, that you are entitled to your feelings and that if you want to go around ordering people to smile because it makes YOU feel good then you can do that. I've just been pointing out that if you care about how other people feel, you may want to behave differently. That's an "IF." You don't have to care how I feel, or how anybody else feels, you just can't simultaneously claim to be doing things for the sake of cheering other people up while also ignoring how they actually feel...nobody's going to buy that.

That I somehow, deep inside, know that this is going to "bum some people out" and that means I should automatically change my idioms and the way that I am to fit what YOU feel is "right". That I'm not allowed to pretend I'm being "nice" as if I'm 1, pretending, or 2, not actually being nice and making friends.

Again, who the fuck is talking about "allowing" or "not allowing"?

I'm not trying to revoke your talking privileges. I'm not proposing to have you followed around by the police. I'm not suggesting legal sanctions against people who behave in ways I find rude. I've repeatedly said that it's up to you how you behave.

You're allowed to keep commanding people to smile if that is what you want to do. Many people won't like it. Some of us may even say so. What's so hard about that? Do you feel that you are only "allowed" to do something if it is universally well received?

But that's ok, keep attacking.

I am not attacking you.

[Seperates]

I'm not a chick and I want to stab people in the ear when they tell me to smile.

You want me to fucking 'smile', do something smile worthy. I'm not your smile monkey.

Does someone trying to cheer you up and offering you a beverage as an icebreaker bother you?

Because thats actually what we're discussing.

I'm fine with it, so long as they offer to buy me a new beverage, and then after enjoying said beverage for abit and talking to the person. I don't particulary have any qualms with the idiom, depending on the time and place of usage. As an icebreaker, it would all depend on the tone of voice, and the general atmosphere of the place. However, as a general sign of camraderie in hardship, I don't have any problems with it.

Speaking as a male, of course.

[Choronzon]

I am not attacking you.

Oh, bullshit. Or when you called him a "Nice Guy (TM)" was that not meant as an attack? We weren't born yesterday. We know what the connotations are. We know the type of people that label is attached to. We know its a term to deride.

At least have the spine to stand by the shit you say, rather then pretend like the shame and rebuke you are raining down is to improve them as a person and for their own good, rather than to establish your own victim cred and pat each other on the back over how enlightened you are. Coward.

[Ocarith]

Most of those aren't actually that common. It just sounds like the writer got the raw end of the deal on life and thinks all males are that way

[The Truth and Light]

I really don't think you guys should speak for all women. It is possible that there is a girl who finds it cute to hear "smile" from a stranger. The only reason he should stop is if the person he says it to happens to not like it, they respectfully express so, and he apologizes and backs down. Other than that I don't think it's right to tell someone to change a behavior simply because you wouldn't want it done to you. And it's not comparable to "faggot", either, so come the fuck off that. One of them is a common greeting in a culture that is defined typically as being free of malice, and the other is a homophobic slur. I don't know where you draw the similarities.

[Cannot think of a name]

I'm not a chick and I want to stab people in the ear when they tell me to smile.

You want me to fucking 'smile', do something smile worthy. I'm not your smile monkey.

Does someone trying to cheer you up and offering you a beverage as an icebreaker bother you?

Because thats actually what we're discussing.

Nope, only read the 'smile' part of the discussion. Which makes me want to stab people in the ear. Also, generic offers to 'cheer up,' hate that shit, too, but mostly because it's either people reading my mood all wrong (alright, if you read it wrong and take my word for it that you have, no harm no foul, but generally when that happens they just won't let it fucking go) or people who don't understand the situation and are only going to offer platitudes if I explain it and that will just put me in a worse mood.

Actually, now that I think about it, a stranger trying to 'cheer me up' is really quite a bit of a presumption. How many external displays how often do I have to make to assure everyone I'm fine and not looking for help 'cheering up'? Shouldn't we be looking for signals that someone is looking for human contact instead of bugging everyone who seems lost in their own thoughts or doing their own thing?

[Bottle]

I am not attacking you.

Oh, bullshit. Or when you called him a "Nice Guy (TM)" was that not meant as an attack?

At least have the spine to stand by the shit you say, rather then pretend like the shame and rebuke you are raining down is to improve them as a person and for their own good, rather than to establish your own victim cred and pat each other on the back over how enlightened you are. Coward.

Good god, and I'm being accused of being "fragile" for disliking the "smile for me" thing?

No, I am not attacking. The fact that you can find one snippy comment in what is now several pages of respectful, restrained conversation does not mean that you have somehow busted me on being a great big meanie. Ask around and I'm sure someone can provide examples for you of what it looks like when I attack.

I do understand that he (and you) may feel attacked. It's not easy to deal with being called out for behavior in situations like this. I know how I have felt when I was called out in the past. The defensiveness comes quick, and it is entirely human and normal. That's why I'm trying to continue talking about this clearly and calmly. I think people who genuinely want to be nice are going to be receptive, and I give the benefit of the doubt to people who insist that they are trying to be nice.

[Nailed to the Perch]

I think you're getting angry and not reading correctly.

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation, and that sometimes "Can I buy you a drink?" is an icebreaker. Hes just being told that hes a "Nice Guy (TM)" (and lets not pretend like thats anything but an insult) and that his behavior resembles that of a rapist.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

If you can point to where I've said anything resembling any of that, I'd be curious to see it.

For something like the third or fourth time now, approaching a stranger to say, "Can I buy you a drink?", being told no, and promptly leaving, is perfectly fine. Approaching a stranger to say "Hey, give me a smile!" is obnoxious. If TED does not want to come off as obnoxious, I suggest he not tell strangers to smile for him, but rather just skip that and go straight to the actually being nice.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Obnoxious to you, the ladies here in Portland don't seem to mind it a bit. I have yet, despite going to a great many bars, and starting a great many conversations, have a single lady do anything but laugh at the man in the wheelchair, or say "hello".

...because women definitely share every one of their innermost thoughts with the dude they just met.

I have had guys command me to smile. I generally respond by making a little forced smile and then getting away from him as politely but quickly as I can, because I don't like conflict. I have never said, "Dude, I am not your performing monkey. Please do not order me to be happy at you," but I can assure you that I've definitely THOUGHT it.

So you have a choice. You can hold to your position that your choice to use a particular phrase is vital, and tell yourself it's super-nice of you to keep using it after multiple women have told you that a lot of women really, really hate that phrase, or you can consider that actual niceness tends to involve listening to how people WANT you to be nice to them. Again, I'm absolutely cool with you offering to buy people drinks because they look like they're having a bad day, and then leaving them alone if they don't want your drinks. That is nice. All I'm saying is that opening with "PERFORM EMOTIONS FOR ME" is a lot less nice than just saying, "Hey, you look like you've had a rough day - your next drink's on me, if you want it."

Think of it this way - maybe you think the nickname "Susie" is a super nice, attractive, good name. So you decide, to be nice, that every time you meet a Susan or a Suzanne or a Susannah, you're going to call them "Susie." Several women named Susan, Suzanne, and Susannah tell you, "Actually, we fucking hate being called Susie. Why don't you just ask us what name we'd like to go by?" What thing does a genuinely nice person do in response? Does he say, "But no other Susies have complained! I think Susie is nice! It's a good nickname! I'm being nice when I call you Susie, dammit"? Or does he say, "Huh. I didn't realize lots of people don't like the name 'Susie.' I will keep that in mind and hold off on calling people Susie until I know them well enough to know that they're cool with that nickname"?

Actually, using "Susie" would be an insult. We tend to use it as a demonym for "ditz" or "oblivious". Generally followed by "Oi" or "Hey", and pointing towards the obvious.

The concept that someone would share their innermost thoughts with me is absurd, I'm sharing a drink and a conversation. If they want to have a conversation, "My boyfriend just cheated on me" or "My wife just died" or "My dog has leukemia", then I'll sit and talk to them. I'll listen, I'll be another person to them, and I'll build a friendship if they seem amenable and friendly enough.

Christ, last night I went out to a bar and rolled up to the bar, asked a lady if she had noticed she dropped her ID, and ended up talking about Andersonville. Not everything is going to be offensive to everyone, and I've heard far worse about the "crip in the roller" than I've ever mouthed to anyone in my life. If it bothers you, then if I ever strike a conversation in a bar, feel free to shoot me down in flames. That's your choice as a fucking human being. But people who are going to try and control the language of others, shouldn't go about accusing them of controlling other people's emotions.

[The Truth and Light]

Jesus christ on a pogo stick. I keep forgetting sometimes why I don't identify as a feminist. Then I see this shit and the glaring fucking neon sign slaps me in the face as to why I don't.

I both identify as a feminist and have been heavily involved with a women's studies department, and I still get what you mean. At times its a fucking echo chamber on par with conservative Christians.

They literally sound like the people who argue against saying "Oh my God" in public, on the grounds of it being disrespectful.

Just refute it in the same way. It is a malice-free expression, and most of the human race has better things to do than walk on eggshells so that someone's sensibilities don't get prodded.

[Bottle]

I really don't think you guys should speak for all women. It is possible that there is a girl who finds it cute to hear "smile" from a stranger. The only reason he should stop is if the person he says it to happens to not like it, they respectfully express so, and he apologizes and backs down.

That doesn't really work, though, does it? I mean, then he's still going around doing something that many people find obnoxious, which is the whole reason this discussion started.

Not to mention that the reaction here does not bode well for the whole "apologize and back down" reaction. I mean, we're only talking in the ABSTRACT and look how heated this is.

[The Merchant Republics]

There's some truth to these.

Namely that men don't get a whole lot of psychological and emotional assistance from their peers they way women do. I developed a great support system for myself, but it's just not there for a lot of guys.

However I can't say as a young man, I have the vast majority of these problems. Most of which I think come from immaturity not manhood in general. I can handle my sex drive, frankly I definitely would refuse if a strange woman propositioned me. I may have a desire to earn money but it's not a dangerous notion.

I've not been in a fight since elementary school, and I'd barely call then fights. Tussles between schoolboys over petty insults. Only one of three I started.

[Bottle]

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation, and that sometimes "Can I buy you a drink?" is an icebreaker. Hes just being told that hes a "Nice Guy (TM)" (and lets not pretend like thats anything but an insult) and that his behavior resembles that of a rapist.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

If you can point to where I've said anything resembling any of that, I'd be curious to see it.

For something like the third or fourth time now, approaching a stranger to say, "Can I buy you a drink?", being told no, and promptly leaving, is perfectly fine. Approaching a stranger to say "Hey, give me a smile!" is obnoxious. If TED does not want to come off as obnoxious, I suggest he not tell strangers to smile for him, but rather just skip that and go straight to the actually being nice.

Ditto.

Maybe it's not even us they're talking to. I know this whole discussion got started by someone else's reply to him, so maybe there's some "splash damage" happening here? I only chimed in because I thought it was worth making clear that they weren't the only one who hates being commanded to smile. I have no strong feelings about drink-buying or similar overtures, personally.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Multiple people find his behavior objectionable. Since his primary defense has been to say that everyone around him likes his behavior, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for multiple people to express that they don't like it...this way he knows it's not just one random person, but it's actually a commonly-shared feeling.

This isn't "ganging up" any more than it is "ganging up" when a lot of people agree that calling people "faggots" is considered rude.


I don't think any of us are confused (or surprised) by the fact that he is annoyed. Indeed, his reaction is precisely the same reaction I've had every time this topic has come up, ever, because there's always at least one dude who freaks the fuck out over this sort of thing.

Hopefully this will help generate some empathy. Guys often wonder how women can get so darn upset over this petty little subject...well, look how upset y'all are, lads! See how upsetting it can be?

Except, again, if someone gets upset by this, I fuck off and apologize. Like an adult should.

There's a consideration to keep in mind. I'm not really known for my temper, but when I'm down I like to brood and think, and the best way to accomplish that I find is to be left alone. When in those situations someone tells me to smile, I'd feel bad for just telling them to go away, so I'll generally feign a smile or even a laugh just to be polite even if I really, truly want the person to go away. In other words the positive reaction you are getting for doing this may not always be sincere.

Now, I can understand the altruistic feeling you might have to help out someone who looks a little down, and that's fine, but I think it's best to limit that kind of thing to friends you regularly interact with. And maybe people who are clearly a little down aren't really in the mood to make new friends.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation, and that sometimes "Can I buy you a drink?" is an icebreaker. Hes just being told that hes a "Nice Guy (TM)" (and lets not pretend like thats anything but an insult) and that his behavior resembles that of a rapist.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

If you can point to where I've said anything resembling any of that, I'd be curious to see it.

For something like the third or fourth time now, approaching a stranger to say, "Can I buy you a drink?", being told no, and promptly leaving, is perfectly fine. Approaching a stranger to say "Hey, give me a smile!" is obnoxious. If TED does not want to come off as obnoxious, I suggest he not tell strangers to smile for him, but rather just skip that and go straight to the actually being nice.

For fuck's sake, it's a figure of speech. It's not an imperative command to smile now. I've been called 'duck' by various people, and I don't think 'Why the hell are you comparing me to a tiny, barely sentient, dirty bird?'. I'm not a great fan of it, but I can tell by their tone that they mean well, and just accept the thanks.

[Nailed to the Perch]

I really don't think you guys should speak for all women. It is possible that there is a girl who finds it cute to hear "smile" from a stranger. The only reason he should stop is if the person he says it to happens to not like it, they respectfully express so, and he apologizes and backs down. Other than that I don't think it's right to tell someone to change a behavior simply because you wouldn't want it done to you. And it's not comparable to "faggot", either, so come the fuck off that. One of them is a common greeting in a culture that is defined typically as being free of malice, and the other is a homophobic slur. I don't know where you draw the similarities.

I don't claim to speak for all women. I do claim that "you should keep doing things that you know a lot of people find obnoxious because some people don't find it obnoxious!" is a freaking terrible argument. There are absolutely women who get turned on by dirty talk, but I still don't think it's a particularly good idea to introduce yourself to a woman at the bar by saying, "Hello, you filthy little whore!" My nickname comparison really is a good one, here, I think. It's not that being addressed by a nickname is inherently bad, but it's generally something you don't do until you know the person you're addressing well enough to know that they're okay with being so nicknamed.

TED is absolutely entitled to keep telling people to smile for him if he wants to. I just think he should be aware that to a lot of people, that is a really annoying thing to say, and so if he doesn't want to come off as a really annoying person, he probably shouldn't say it.

[The Truth and Light]

I really don't think you guys should speak for all women. It is possible that there is a girl who finds it cute to hear "smile" from a stranger. The only reason he should stop is if the person he says it to happens to not like it, they respectfully express so, and he apologizes and backs down.

That doesn't really work, though, does it? I mean, then he's still going around doing something that many people find obnoxious, which is the whole reason this discussion started.

Not to mention that the reaction here does not bode well for the whole "apologize and back down" reaction. I mean, we're only talking in the ABSTRACT and look how heated this is.

My point is, if YOU find it obnoxious, ask that it not be done to YOU, and all will be well. I don't claim to speak for anybody, but he has said in his experience his little saying has not offended anyone. None of us can read these women's minds, they may have found it cute, they may not. Whatever. It's her prerogative to deal with the situation how she likes. You will always be free to react however you want to "smile", should the situation arise for you.

And I think the tension has come from the fact that you're telling him one of his behaviors is obnoxious when he's never gotten feedback like that from someone in real-life, to whom he has actually directed the behavior. You're practically sticking up for some woman you don't know who may not even need it.

[Cannot think of a name]

There's some truth to these.

Namely that men don't get a whole lot of psychological and emotional assistance from their peers they way women do. I developed a great support system for myself, but it's just not there for a lot of guys.

However I can't say as a young man, I have the vast majority of these problems. Most of which I think come from immaturity not manhood in general. I can handle my sex drive, frankly I definitely would refuse if a strange woman propositioned me. I may have a desire to earn money but it's not a dangerous notion.

I've not been in a fight since elementary school, and I'd barely call then fights. Tussles between schoolboys over petty insults. Only one of three I started.

Well, I mean, technically he's right in that he's talking about statistical tendencies more than 'every dude does all these things.' If this shit happens more to dudes, regardless of the reason, they are a thing.

It's just that he presented it in the most ass way possible and so instead of focusing on the larger issues that encapsulate them we're mocking the delivery.

Or, I think now working out the finer points of how the genders are allowed to interact. I kind of come in and out of this thread.

[Bottle]

I both identify as a feminist and have been heavily involved with a women's studies department, and I still get what you mean. At times its a fucking echo chamber on par with conservative Christians.

They literally sound like the people who argue against saying "Oh my God" in public, on the grounds of it being disrespectful.

Just refute it in the same way. It is a malice-free expression, and most of the human race has better things to do than walk on eggshells so that someone's sensibilities don't get prodded.

That's not a good refutation of those people, though, because "malice" doesn't matter.

If you're dealing with people who are proposing to make it ILLEGAL for you to say things like "oh my god" or "smile for me baby," that's one thing. You combat them with the various arguments about freedom of speech, and the pragmatic arguments against trying to legislate manners.

If you're dealing with people who are stating that they DON'T LIKE IT when you say things like "oh my god" or "smile for me baby," then there's no refuting that because you don't command other people's feelings. Your choices are to either change your behavior or continue on knowing that you will be bothering people.

I, personally, opt to bother people in some cases. For instance, I know my being openly queer bums out homophobes. I accept that. I do not try to insist that I AM SO BEING NICE TO HOMOPHOBES when I am openly gay...I'm not, and I know it. I don't try to insist that they have to like my behavior, because they don't. They can dislike it, and I will own the fact that I am doing something I know is not popular with a lot of folks.

All that is happening here is that a dude is being told that one of his behaviors may not be received as nice, even if he intends it to be. Nobody is proposing that he be banned from speaking or any such thing. Nobody is setting forth legislation or getting a court order.

[Bottle]

That doesn't really work, though, does it? I mean, then he's still going around doing something that many people find obnoxious, which is the whole reason this discussion started.

Not to mention that the reaction here does not bode well for the whole "apologize and back down" reaction. I mean, we're only talking in the ABSTRACT and look how heated this is.

My point is, if YOU find it obnoxious, ask that it not be done to YOU, and all will be well. I don't claim to speak for anybody, but he has said in his experience his little saying has not offended anyone. None of us can read these women's minds, they may have found it cute, they may not.

Except it doesn't work that way with most behaviors. For instance, some people like to be hugged, but I think we're all comfortable saying that it's not a good idea to go around randomly hugging strangers, right? The fact that some people may really like it, may even be really cheered up by it, doesn't mean that it's a good default to go around doing it to everyone. Right?

Same thing here. Some people may like it. If you have friends who you know like it, then by all means, go for it! But it's probably not a good idea to go around behaving that way toward strangers, given the odds of accidentally having the opposite of the effect you wanted.