7 Worst Things About Being Male

[The Emerald Dawn]

You know, from reading the past discussion, I figured out something. You know what really sucks about being male? Wanting to do something nice for a girl because of freaking human decency or something equally innocent like that, and having everyone assume that your end goal is to get her into your pants.

You know what really sucks about being female? Knowing that if you ever accept any kind gesture from any man, and that man then rapes you, then your choice to let him be kind to you will be held up as proof that you deserved to be raped (or that you weren't even really raped at all because DUH you owed him so fair is fair!).

Oh fuck off. Christ that's just senseless escalation and conflation.

Saying that is literally no better than "all men are rapists."

[Bottle]

The evidence to the contrary is mounting. Instead of minimizing others' struggles (to focus on the mental-health aspect is to leave aside the gender relations issue of 'smile baby', and I think it's safe to say that 'give us a smile' will be read exactly the same outside of your circle of heritage-aware Irish friends), maybe you can educate yourself and not go around contributing to an offensive practice. It's part of basic consideration.

Look, I get that people want to be nice to you, and won't tell you to your face what's wrong with 'give us a smile' (actually far creepier than what I thought you were saying; what would you call it when someone stops you on the street or in a bar and says 'give us a quarter'?). It's understandable that you don't have an opportunity to learn about the consequences in that context. But we have the internet, and everyone from Miss Manners to Dear Abby and every feminist blogger has spelled it all out in chapter and verse for you.

Again, do you have a response to my links and the person with the nerve damage, or are they all just man-hating bitches or something?

You're absolutely right. I'm just a mean ol' fuck who should never talk to anyone because, god damn, I can't help but not be nice. Guess there'll just be one less nice person in the world now. I'm sure you're happier that way.

So...

1) You start out engaging in a behavior that you claim is about making people happier.
2) You are told by multiple people that your behavior actually doesn't make them happier.
3) You decide to spitefully stop doing anything nice ever, because fuck everyone.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a nice person at all.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Do you know why I say "give us a smile"? Because I'm fuckin' Irish and it is a figure of speech. If someone is so emotionally fragile as to break down at "give us a smile", the next thing out of my mouth is going to be, "you ok, lad/miss?" Because, again, I'm capable of having an adult conversation of someone without attempting to control them, or their thoughts, or their emotions. I could give a shit about how I feel about myself, what I'm doing is making a new acquaintance, sharing some of my life with someone else, and reaching out to people who may not be feeling quite so fucking grand.

Again, you are a paranoid rotter, and you really need to reassess how you approach issues if you do not want to spend your life tilting at imaginary windmills.

I missed this post at first. Please do not tell strangers "give us a smile." It may be an expression, but it's an obnoxious expression, and it will quite honestly make a lot of women think, "oh geez, not another douchebag." Since it doesn't sound like your aim is to come off as a douchebag, I really recommend cutting that phrase out of your vocabulary unless it's directed at someone you already know well.

Obnoxious to you, the ladies here in Portland don't seem to mind it a bit. I have yet, despite going to a great many bars, and starting a great many conversations, have a single lady do anything but laugh at the man in the wheelchair, or say "hello".

[The Emerald Dawn]

You're absolutely right. I'm just a mean ol' fuck who should never talk to anyone because, god damn, I can't help but not be nice. Guess there'll just be one less nice person in the world now. I'm sure you're happier that way.

So...

1) You start out engaging in a behavior that you claim is about making people happier.
2) You are told by multiple people that your behavior actually doesn't make them happier.
3) You decide to spitefully stop doing anything nice ever, because fuck everyone.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a nice person at all.

Doesn't make *you* happier. Strangely, it works quite well around where I live. I'm sorry you live in a worse place.

[Bottle]

You know what really sucks about being female? Knowing that if you ever accept any kind gesture from any man, and that man then rapes you, then your choice to let him be kind to you will be held up as proof that you deserved to be raped (or that you weren't even really raped at all because DUH you owed him so fair is fair!).

Oh fuck off. Christ that's just senseless escalation and conflation.

Saying that is literally no better than "all men are rapists."

Actually it's quite different, because if all men were rapists then there wouldn't be the above conflict. It really WOULD be stupid for a woman to ever interact nicely with a man, if all men were rapists.

But hey, keep on with that 'nice' dismissal of women's lived experiences. Your cred as a Nice Guy(tm) is getting stronger by the minute!

[Choronzon]

Its official. Some of you get off on patting yourselves on the back.

[Bottle]

So...

1) You start out engaging in a behavior that you claim is about making people happier.
2) You are told by multiple people that your behavior actually doesn't make them happier.
3) You decide to spitefully stop doing anything nice ever, because fuck everyone.

That doesn't sound like the behavior of a nice person at all.

Doesn't make *you* happier. Strangely, it works quite well around where I live. I'm sorry you live in a worse place.

Why do you assume my place is worse? I could just as easily assume that you live somewhere that women don't feel safe enough to speak up when they don't like your behavior. But that would be an irrelevant and silly assumption on my part.

All that is happening is some people are telling you that your behavior bums them out. If you want to go on doing something you know will bum some people out, and just play the odds that you'll never encounter any of them, that's up to you. Just remember that you don't really get to pretend your behavior is about being "nice," if you are knowingly doing something that many folks find rotten. You're doing something because YOU like to do it, whether or not other people like it. That's okay, just own it.

[Nailed to the Perch]

You know what really sucks about being female? Knowing that if you ever accept any kind gesture from any man, and that man then rapes you, then your choice to let him be kind to you will be held up as proof that you deserved to be raped (or that you weren't even really raped at all because DUH you owed him so fair is fair!).

Oh fuck off. Christ that's just senseless escalation and conflation.

Saying that is literally no better than "all men are rapists."

I think you're getting angry and not reading correctly. Bottle's post says nothing resembling "all men are rapists." Rather, she argues that SOME men are rapists, and they don't come equipped with neon signs over their heads identifying which ones they are, especially not upon first encountering them - and that a large number of people, male and female, will quite seriously make arguments like, "Well, you let him buy you a drink/walk you home/kiss you/whatever, what did you EXPECT, clearly you totally consented to anything and everything he did!" It absolutely sucks that both of those things are true - but they ARE true, nonetheless.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Oh fuck off. Christ that's just senseless escalation and conflation.

Saying that is literally no better than "all men are rapists."

Actually it's quite different, because if all men were rapists then there wouldn't be the above conflict. It really WOULD be stupid for a woman to ever interact nicely with a man, if all men were rapists.

But hey, keep on with that 'nice' dismissal of women's lived experiences. Your cred as a Nice Guy(tm) is getting stronger by the minute!

And so you saunter in and just dismiss something that's not great about being a man by one-upping it? So something isn't great about being a man. Doesn't magically make things go away that are bad for a woman. And yet you, instead of allowing, or admitting, that this particular thing may be bad for men, demand to "what about the women" the conversation, because woe-betide that we actually admit that something may be bad. Not worse, mind, just bad.

[Free South Califas]

I missed this post at first. Please do not tell strangers "give us a smile." It may be an expression, but it's an obnoxious expression, and it will quite honestly make a lot of women think, "oh geez, not another douchebag." Since it doesn't sound like your aim is to come off as a douchebag, I really recommend cutting that phrase out of your vocabulary unless it's directed at someone you already know well.

Obnoxious to you, the ladies here in Portland don't seem to mind it a bit. I have yet, despite going to a great many bars, and starting a great many conversations, have a single lady do anything but laugh at the man in the wheelchair, or say "hello".

Oh, are my links unavailable in Portland, or are they just written by man-hating bitches or something, who just need to chill out and take on a more Portland vibe?

[The Emerald Dawn]

Doesn't make *you* happier. Strangely, it works quite well around where I live. I'm sorry you live in a worse place.

Why do you assume my place is worse? I could just as easily assume that you live somewhere that women don't feel safe enough to speak up when they don't like your behavior. But that would be an irrelevant and silly assumption on my part.

All that is happening is some people are telling you that your behavior bums them out. If you want to go on doing something you know will bum some people out, and just play the odds that you'll never encounter any of them, that's up to you. Just remember that you don't really get to pretend your behavior is about being "nice," if you are knowingly doing something that many folks find rotten. You're doing something because YOU like to do it, whether or not other people like it. That's okay, just own it.

Funny, many people find abortion rotten. That doesn't stop me from defending the right to an abortion for women. Your stance doesn't hold up to basic logic.

[Bottle]

Do you know why I say "give us a smile"? Because I'm fuckin' Irish and it is a figure of speech. If someone is so emotionally fragile as to break down at "give us a smile", the next thing out of my mouth is going to be, "you ok, lad/miss?" Because, again, I'm capable of having an adult conversation of someone without attempting to control them, or their thoughts, or their emotions. I could give a shit about how I feel about myself, what I'm doing is making a new acquaintance, sharing some of my life with someone else, and reaching out to people who may not be feeling quite so fucking grand.

Again, you are a paranoid rotter, and you really need to reassess how you approach issues if you do not want to spend your life tilting at imaginary windmills.

I missed this post at first. Please do not tell strangers "give us a smile." It may be an expression, but it's an obnoxious expression, and it will quite honestly make a lot of women think, "oh geez, not another douchebag." Since it doesn't sound like your aim is to come off as a douchebag, I really recommend cutting that phrase out of your vocabulary unless it's directed at someone you already know well.

OMG STOP OPPRESSING HIM OR ELSE HE'LL STOP DOING NICE THINGS FOR ANYONE EVER.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I missed this post at first. Please do not tell strangers "give us a smile." It may be an expression, but it's an obnoxious expression, and it will quite honestly make a lot of women think, "oh geez, not another douchebag." Since it doesn't sound like your aim is to come off as a douchebag, I really recommend cutting that phrase out of your vocabulary unless it's directed at someone you already know well.

OMG STOP OPPRESSING HIM OR ELSE HE'LL STOP DOING NICE THINGS FOR ANYONE EVER.

/slowclap

[Choronzon]

I think you're getting angry and not reading correctly.

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation, and that sometimes "Can I buy you a drink?" is an icebreaker. Hes just being told that hes a "Nice Guy (TM)" (and lets not pretend like thats anything but an insult) and that his behavior resembles that of a rapist.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

[Bottle]

Why do you assume my place is worse? I could just as easily assume that you live somewhere that women don't feel safe enough to speak up when they don't like your behavior. But that would be an irrelevant and silly assumption on my part.

All that is happening is some people are telling you that your behavior bums them out. If you want to go on doing something you know will bum some people out, and just play the odds that you'll never encounter any of them, that's up to you. Just remember that you don't really get to pretend your behavior is about being "nice," if you are knowingly doing something that many folks find rotten. You're doing something because YOU like to do it, whether or not other people like it. That's okay, just own it.

Funny, many people find abortion rotten. That doesn't stop me from defending the right to an abortion for women. Your stance doesn't hold up to basic logic.

Er, what logic are you using there?

The post you quoted includes me specifically and clearly saying that you have every right to keep doing what you're doing even if people find it rotten.

[The Truth and Light]

What sucks about being male is trying to convince people that I can be male and identify as a feminist, because not all of us are clinging to rape culture. People just don't believe it.

And it's tough to explain to people that sexism negatively affects men too, just in different ways. Of course men do have a politico-economic privilege in our society, but rape culture is fucking entrapping. Seriously. Most guys have no problem with the "boys will be boys" mindset, and I always felt a little ostracized growing up because I never shared that point of view.

But other than that, male privilege is real, and I'm not going to be one of those basics who fights for better custody laws or whatever in the face of an ongoing war on women.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Funny, many people find abortion rotten. That doesn't stop me from defending the right to an abortion for women. Your stance doesn't hold up to basic logic.

Er, what logic are you using there?

The post you quoted includes me specifically and clearly saying that you have every right to keep doing what you're doing even if people find it rotten.

Because you're saying "people", as if I'm not one of those. You're saying "many folks" as if you, and your feelings, outweigh my experiences, and my feelings. That I somehow, deep inside, know that this is going to "bum some people out" and that means I should automatically change my idioms and the way that I am to fit what YOU feel is "right". That I'm not allowed to pretend I'm being "nice" as if I'm 1, pretending, or 2, not actually being nice and making friends.

But that's ok, keep attacking.

[Pillea]

What sucks about being male is trying to convince people that I can be male and identify as a feminist, because not all of us are clinging to rape culture. People just don't believe it.

And it's tough to explain to people that sexism negatively affects men too, just in different ways. Of course men do have a politico-economic privilege in our society, but rape culture is fucking entrapping. Seriously. Most guys have no problem with the "boys will be boys" mindset, and I always felt a little ostracized growing up because I never shared that point of view.

But other than that, male privilege is real, and I'm not going to be one of those basics who fights for better custody laws or whatever in the face of an ongoing war on women.

And you, you get it.

[Cannot think of a name]

I'm not a chick and I want to stab people in the ear when they tell me to smile.

You want me to fucking 'smile', do something smile worthy. I'm not your smile monkey.

[Choronzon]

Er, what logic are you using there?

The post you quoted includes me specifically and clearly saying that you have every right to keep doing what you're doing even if people find it rotten.

Because you're saying "people", as if I'm not one of those. You're saying "many folks" as if you, and your feelings, outweigh my experiences, and my feelings. That I somehow, deep inside, know that this is going to "bum some people out" and that means I should automatically change my idioms and the way that I am to fit what YOU feel is "right". That I'm not allowed to pretend I'm being "nice" as if I'm 1, pretending, or 2, not actually being nice and making friends.

But that's ok, keep attacking.

But mah blogs

[Bottle]

I think you're getting angry and not reading correctly.

Yeah, hes just getting ganged up on by the professional victims on this board because he had the audacity to say that sometimes he tries to cheer people up by engaging them in conversation,

Multiple people find his behavior objectionable. Since his primary defense has been to say that everyone around him likes his behavior, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for multiple people to express that they don't like it...this way he knows it's not just one random person, but it's actually a commonly-shared feeling.

This isn't "ganging up" any more than it is "ganging up" when a lot of people agree that calling people "faggots" is considered rude.

Why oh why might he be getting annoyed?

I don't think any of us are confused (or surprised) by the fact that he is annoyed. Indeed, his reaction is precisely the same reaction I've had every time this topic has come up, ever, because there's always at least one dude who freaks the fuck out over this sort of thing.

Hopefully this will help generate some empathy. Guys often wonder how women can get so darn upset over this petty little subject...well, look how upset y'all are, lads! See how upsetting it can be?

[Choronzon]

I'm not a chick and I want to stab people in the ear when they tell me to smile.

You want me to fucking 'smile', do something smile worthy. I'm not your smile monkey.

Does someone trying to cheer you up and offering you a beverage as an icebreaker bother you?

Because thats actually what we're discussing.

[The Truth and Light]

What sucks about being male is trying to convince people that I can be male and identify as a feminist, because not all of us are clinging to rape culture. People just don't believe it.

And it's tough to explain to people that sexism negatively affects men too, just in different ways. Of course men do have a politico-economic privilege in our society, but rape culture is fucking entrapping. Seriously. Most guys have no problem with the "boys will be boys" mindset, and I always felt a little ostracized growing up because I never shared that point of view.

But other than that, male privilege is real, and I'm not going to be one of those basics who fights for better custody laws or whatever in the face of an ongoing war on women.

And you, you get it.

It was quite a humbling process for me to accept my current position. I really had to look at myself objectively and become aware of the sexist attitudes I was perpetuating for it to really click. And thank you. <3

[The Emerald Dawn]

Because you're saying "people", as if I'm not one of those. You're saying "many folks" as if you, and your feelings, outweigh my experiences, and my feelings. That I somehow, deep inside, know that this is going to "bum some people out" and that means I should automatically change my idioms and the way that I am to fit what YOU feel is "right". That I'm not allowed to pretend I'm being "nice" as if I'm 1, pretending, or 2, not actually being nice and making friends.

But that's ok, keep attacking.

But mah blogs

Jesus christ on a pogo stick. I keep forgetting sometimes why I don't identify as a feminist. Then I see this shit and the glaring fucking neon sign slaps me in the face as to why I don't.

[Individuality-ness]

You know, from reading the past discussion, I figured out something. You know what really sucks about being male? Wanting to do something nice for a girl because of freaking human decency or something equally innocent like that, and having everyone assume that your end goal is to get her into your pants.

You know what really sucks about being female? Knowing that if you ever accept any kind gesture from any man, and that man then rapes you, then your choice to let him be kind to you will be held up as proof that you deserved to be raped for "leading him on" and you are at least partially to blame for being so stupid as to allow a man to interact with you as if you could be liked for something other than your vagina. Or, of course, that you weren't even really raped at all because DUH you owed him, so fair is fair!

That really sucks too; it totally sucks to be both sides of the spectrum. Women are being told that they should be wary of people offering them drinks because they could be meaning to rape you. This limits both genders, as it restricts women on terms on who interacts with her and it limits what kind of interactions she can have lest she does actually be raped because she somehow "owed" that jerkass sex, and it limits men in being unable to do something nice because he'll be seen as a potential rapist.

I think that it's a problem. We ought to teach people that getting sex is not a game of negotiating who owes who what, because sex is not something that is owed someone for doing something nice to them, but as something negotiated between two consenting people as an end means to itself.