7 Worst Things About Being Male

[Free South Califas]

Thing is, right, while it has never actually happened to me (and while, as I pointed out, the whole wider 'girls don't have to buy their own drinks' thing is nonsense), if someone offered to buy me a drink not because we were friends but because I was a girl (and because, presumably, they found me attractive) then I'd definitely be saying no thanks. Why? Because, well, look at what a lot of people see as the implied understanding in the exchange - that if a guy buys a girl a few drink then he has a reasonable expectation that he'll be getting at least a handjob.

Don't really fancy that.

...I buy people drinks if they look like they're lonely or down. I don't expect a whammy, just some conversation or at least a smile.

Expecting a smile? While your physical expectations are certainly more reasonable than expecting sexual stimulation, you're not exactly defeating Nadkor's argument about people thinking they can ply women with drinks and get what they want out of them. Like, yeah, yours is more liberal, but it kinda reeks of "I still want to control women with my money, I just can't ask for as much now that I'm married".

I know a lot of men struggle with this - it took me a while to understand it, although social things are always hard for me - but it is still creepy to enforce smiles on women. And again, yeah, at least you're not shouting "SMILE!" on the street, but it still wouldn't make me comfortable being a female stranger around you if I knew you saw me that way. No offense, dude, again I know you're plenty liberal and stuff, but it's still creepy.

Now that I think about it this way (it doesn't really come up for me IRL anymore since I'm broke and can't have more than two drinks in a month), perhaps the least coercive way to buy someone a drink is while sitting separately from them. Then at least they have the option of coming over or staying where they are because they can't handle a conversation right now or feel insecure about something or just don't feel like smiling for you tonight. Giving women options, as if they're people despite the social acceptability of coercing them with money, is probably ideal.

I guarantee you drinks are at least twice the price in my neck of the woods than they are in yours.

I'd say your outlook is technically correct most of the time, but it's kind of like arguing there's no such thing as being altruistic. Human interaction can be tough, and knowing what to say to a stranger can be even tougher. Yeah, I've used it as an excuse to talk to someone, I've also done it because I knew they'd be flattered and it made me feel good to make them feel good. Maybe that makes me as bad as the people thinking a few beers will buy their way into someone's pants. I hope not.

what wrong with buying a few beers to get into someones pants? if they dont want their pants gotten into, they can say "no. thank you".

Er..what? Hello? Alcohol impairs judgement and tends to affect the average woman more strongly...is this unfamiliar to you? You should at least be concerned for your freedom if you're really this OK with date rape.

but that said, everytime i bought a stranger a drink in a bar, i was not trying to get into his or her's respective pants.

Well, I'm glad you weren't trying to rape all of them, I guess? (Not trying to bait, just can't bring myself to trivialize it by calling the verb 'date rape', and that is what we are discussing)

My response was something along the lines of "Dafuq?"... more politely of course. So yes, unfortuantely there are people out there who feel self-entitled to that drinks-buying thing which helps perpetuate the rather skewed process, so once again, women have a bit of an obligation to smash the stereotype there along with the self-entitled males who think that buying a manhattan means one degree of buyer's choice fumbling in the alleyway behind the bar...or something. Then there are the assholes that carry around rohypnol and GHB with them...they deserve a swift kicking site on seen.

That's all well and good, and I can totally see why you "Dafuq?"ed, and you have a point about how of course it's not just men who need to work on this issue.

That being said, I wonder if you weren't just talking to an alcoholic. Presumably they'll use any lever that seems like it would be effective in order to get more alcohol while saving money for a bottle later. Either way, I kind of doubt she's in the same group as those who call on men not to use bar tabs to exploit women. It sounds more like she's an enthusiastic participant, and it seems like every social problem has those individuals helping to perpetuate it--and probably always will.

Or, the person was approached by so many men who felt entitled to her time that she thought she might at least get a drink out of it. (Of course, not having a ton of information about your approach, I'm talking about hypothetical men before you.)

[Choronzon]

Expecting a smile? While your physical expectations are certainly more reasonable than expecting sexual stimulation, you're not exactly defeating Nadkor's argument about people thinking they can ply women with drinks and get what they want out of them. Like, yeah, yours is more liberal, but it kinda reeks of "I still want to control women with my money, I just can't ask for as much now that I'm married".

I know a lot of men struggle with this - it took me a while to understand it, although social things are always hard for me - but it is still creepy to enforce smiles on women. And again, yeah, at least you're not shouting "SMILE!" on the street, but it still wouldn't make me comfortable being a female stranger around you if I knew you saw me that way. No offense, dude, again I know you're plenty liberal and stuff, but it's still creepy.

Now that I think about it this way (it doesn't really come up for me IRL anymore since I'm broke and can't have more than two drinks in a month), perhaps the least coercive way to buy someone a drink is while sitting separately from them. Then at least they have the option of coming over or staying where they are because they can't handle a conversation right now or feel insecure about something or just don't feel like smiling for you tonight. Giving women options, as if they're people despite the social acceptability of coercing them with money, is probably ideal.

What would Emerald Dawn do without you around to tell him how to best interact with women?

He should be thankful for your input, lest he become a rapist amirite?

EDIT: Oh, my bad, it wasn't ED you implied was/probably is/might very well be a rapist. But I'm glad you didn't disappoint and made sure to accuse someone in your post.

[America Resurgent]

Er..what? Hello? Alcohol impairs judgement and tends to affect the average woman more strongly...is this unfamiliar to you? You should at least be concerned for your freedom if you're really this OK with date rape.

In point of fairness, I believe he meant she can reject the drink offer, at which point her judgment isn't and won't be impaired.

[Northern Dominus]

My response was something along the lines of "Dafuq?"... more politely of course. So yes, unfortuantely there are people out there who feel self-entitled to that drinks-buying thing which helps perpetuate the rather skewed process, so once again, women have a bit of an obligation to smash the stereotype there along with the self-entitled males who think that buying a manhattan means one degree of buyer's choice fumbling in the alleyway behind the bar...or something. Then there are the assholes that carry around rohypnol and GHB with them...they deserve a swift kicking site on seen.

That's all well and good, and I can totally see why you "Dafuq?"ed, and you have a point about how of course it's not just men who need to work on this issue.

That being said, I wonder if you weren't just talking to an alcoholic. Presumably they'll use any lever that seems like it would be effective in order to get more alcohol while saving money for a bottle later. Either way, I kind of doubt she's in the same group as those who call on men not to use bar tabs to exploit women. It sounds more like she's an enthusiastic participant, and it seems like every social problem has those individuals helping to perpetuate it--and probably always will.

Or, the person was approached by so many men who felt entitled to her time that she thought she might at least get a drink out of it. (Of course, not having a ton of information about your approach, I'm talking about hypothetical men before you.)

Oh no, she wasn't an alcoholic. Usually an alcoholic at the bar tends to hunch over their drink and nurse it along or pound it down and keep going. This woman was in full "come hither" mode from dress to body language...

She could have been a sex worker as well come to think of it. No judgment, just sayin.

[Free South Califas]

Expecting a smile? While your physical expectations are certainly more reasonable than expecting sexual stimulation, you're not exactly defeating Nadkor's argument about people thinking they can ply women with drinks and get what they want out of them. Like, yeah, yours is more liberal, but it kinda reeks of "I still want to control women with my money, I just can't ask for as much now that I'm married".

I know a lot of men struggle with this - it took me a while to understand it, although social things are always hard for me - but it is still creepy to enforce smiles on women. And again, yeah, at least you're not shouting "SMILE!" on the street, but it still wouldn't make me comfortable being a female stranger around you if I knew you saw me that way. No offense, dude, again I know you're plenty liberal and stuff, but it's still creepy.

Now that I think about it this way (it doesn't really come up for me IRL anymore since I'm broke and can't have more than two drinks in a month), perhaps the least coercive way to buy someone a drink is while sitting separately from them. Then at least they have the option of coming over or staying where they are because they can't handle a conversation right now or feel insecure about something or just don't feel like smiling for you tonight. Giving women options, as if they're people despite the social acceptability of coercing them with money, is probably ideal.

What would Emerald Dawn do without you around to tell him how to best interact with women?

He should be thankful for your input, lest he become a rapist amirite?

EDIT: Oh, my bad, it wasn't ED you implied was/probably is/might very well be a rapist. But I'm glad you didn't disappoint and made sure to accuse someone in your post.

This is not directed to Choronzon, who I'd wished was ignoring me as instructed. It's a response to his claim about me, which I only clicked on because it was right after my post.

Just to be clear, rather than calling someone "a rapist", I asked the obvious question when someone has disclosed that they endorse something that is literally part of the legal definition of rape where he lives: Do you understand the law?

EM didn't say that he himself does this, just that he thinks it's OK. I've restricted my inquiry to that domain, and comments from the bait shop are not particularly helpful; I've probably expended more energy on Choronzon's post than justly should have been spent, now. I just wanted EM to be clear that I'm not calling him names or assuming facts not in evidence.

[Free South Califas]

Er..what? Hello? Alcohol impairs judgement and tends to affect the average woman more strongly...is this unfamiliar to you? You should at least be concerned for your freedom if you're really this OK with date rape.

In point of fairness, I believe he meant she can reject the drink offer, at which point her judgment isn't and won't be impaired.

In that case, people who EM endorsed, carry on, as long as you disclose your intentions before the other person starts drinking

[Free South Califas]

That's all well and good, and I can totally see why you "Dafuq?"ed, and you have a point about how of course it's not just men who need to work on this issue.

That being said, I wonder if you weren't just talking to an alcoholic. Presumably they'll use any lever that seems like it would be effective in order to get more alcohol while saving money for a bottle later. Either way, I kind of doubt she's in the same group as those who call on men not to use bar tabs to exploit women. It sounds more like she's an enthusiastic participant, and it seems like every social problem has those individuals helping to perpetuate it--and probably always will.

Or, the person was approached by so many men who felt entitled to her time that she thought she might at least get a drink out of it. (Of course, not having a ton of information about your approach, I'm talking about hypothetical men before you.)

Oh no, she wasn't an alcoholic. Usually an alcoholic at the bar tends to hunch over their drink and nurse it along or pound it down and keep going. This woman was in full "come hither" mode from dress to body language...

She could have been a sex worker as well come to think of it. No judgment, just sayin.

Meh, unless you are a qualified mental health professional, I dispute the premise that you can rule out the diagnosis merely because the addict is socially high-functioning and uses social skills to obtain more of the drug, especially when that seems really common in alcoholism.

[America Resurgent]

That's all well and good, and I can totally see why you "Dafuq?"ed, and you have a point about how of course it's not just men who need to work on this issue.

That being said, I wonder if you weren't just talking to an alcoholic. Presumably they'll use any lever that seems like it would be effective in order to get more alcohol while saving money for a bottle later. Either way, I kind of doubt she's in the same group as those who call on men not to use bar tabs to exploit women. It sounds more like she's an enthusiastic participant, and it seems like every social problem has those individuals helping to perpetuate it--and probably always will.

If she was using the sex as leverage, then I'm fairly certain that she at least would've accepted some sort of sex-for-alcohol thing.

[Free South Califas]

That's all well and good, and I can totally see why you "Dafuq?"ed, and you have a point about how of course it's not just men who need to work on this issue.

That being said, I wonder if you weren't just talking to an alcoholic. Presumably they'll use any lever that seems like it would be effective in order to get more alcohol while saving money for a bottle later. Either way, I kind of doubt she's in the same group as those who call on men not to use bar tabs to exploit women. It sounds more like she's an enthusiastic participant, and it seems like every social problem has those individuals helping to perpetuate it--and probably always will.

If she was using the sex as leverage, then I'm fairly certain that she at least would've accepted some sort of sex-for-alcohol thing.

I thought she was using her attention as leverage for the drink? Unless she was more explicit than ND felt comfortable sharing, anyway.

[America Resurgent]

I thought she was using her attention as leverage for the drink? Unless she was more explicit than ND felt comfortable sharing, anyway.

Well, yeah, but, you know, the more sexual style of "attention".

So...

[The Emerald Dawn]

...I buy people drinks if they look like they're lonely or down. I don't expect a whammy, just some conversation or at least a smile.

Expecting a smile? While your physical expectations are certainly more reasonable than expecting sexual stimulation, you're not exactly defeating Nadkor's argument about people thinking they can ply women with drinks and get what they want out of them. Like, yeah, yours is more liberal, but it kinda reeks of "I still want to control women with my money, I just can't ask for as much now that I'm married".

I know a lot of men struggle with this - it took me a while to understand it, although social things are always hard for me - but it is still creepy to enforce smiles on women. And again, yeah, at least you're not shouting "SMILE!" on the street, but it still wouldn't make me comfortable being a female stranger around you if I knew you saw me that way. No offense, dude, again I know you're plenty liberal and stuff, but it's still creepy.

Now that I think about it this way (it doesn't really come up for me IRL anymore since I'm broke and can't have more than two drinks in a month), perhaps the least coercive way to buy someone a drink is while sitting separately from them. Then at least they have the option of coming over or staying where they are because they can't handle a conversation right now or feel insecure about something or just don't feel like smiling for you tonight. Giving women options, as if they're people despite the social acceptability of coercing them with money, is probably ideal.

Then they can say "no, thank you though." and we both move on with our night.

You're removing the altruism from life again. See, "give me a smile" is synonymous with "trying to cheer them up". When I buy someone a drink, I'm trying to cheer them up, or give them a shoulder to lean on. If they're the talkative sort, I'll listen and hear and respond as appropriate. If they aren't, then they don't have any obligation. I'm not going to pressure them, for fuck's sake.

Call me creepy if you want, but that's your opinion, and it isn't widely shared.

[Free South Califas]

I thought she was using her attention as leverage for the drink? Unless she was more explicit than ND felt comfortable sharing, anyway.

Well, yeah, but, you know, the more sexual style of "attention".

So...

We're venturing into the abstract here. ND described a situation where he approached someone for at least conversation and was told that it would be required to buy a drink first. I'm applying Occam's Razor and finding other at-least-equally simple and plausible explanations than his conclusion from this anecdote that women in general are to some degree accountable for the actions of alcoholics who, after all, can scarcely be expected to all be social critics. I'm not surprised that someone internalized this kind of gender relation and reproduced it; I grew up in a similar cultural context and meet such people every time I go outside. To blame the people who are trying to fix the problem is a little weird.

[Republica Newland]

This "article" is useless.

[Free South Califas]

You're removing the altruism from life again. See, "give me a smile" is synonymous with "trying to cheer them up".

The mansplaining's not necessary, thanks. I wasn't born yesterday. What you say here only confirms that, yes, you are part of the group I thought I was addressing, doing the exact thing I am talking about.

You want the women around you to be smiling, and yes, that's a relatively benign thing to want to control in the women around you. But that's a pretty low standard. And you know, as an autistic person, this is personal to me, too. Sometimes people aren't smiling because everyone shat on them that day and, among other things, they're tired of other people trying to control their emotions when it's hard-to-impossible to put a brave face on anyway.

You can't assume anything about a stranger's story. Yes, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that you're ready to respect a "no". Seriously, that's a big thing and I'm glad. But when you try to control the emotional display of others, you don't know what you're trying to control and what the unintended consequences are. Again, among other considerations, you don't know if the person you're approaching has been abused by someone who forced them to smile when they didn't want to, and you might be triggering their PTSD. They can say no and your night hums along just fine, while they struggle to deal with all the emotions that were triggered, and in a public place where they've been shamed into hiding such things.

The process of trying to justify the practice even though it is exploitative and viewed by many women as harassment (seriously, google is like, right over there, but

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/04/29/smile-your-face-is-making-people-unhappy/
http://feministing.com/2012/01/17/shit- ... to-happen/\
http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/20 ... -to-smile/
http://feminaust.org/2012/03/13/smile-s ... ing-woman/
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/01/femi ... owing.html
http://threeinchstitch.blogspot.com/201 ... sment.html

), and furthermore justifying it based merely on the person's ability to say "no" nevermind the consequences of being asked in the first place (how far are you willing to take this principle), etc. should tell you a lot about it.

I think you're better than this.

Call me creepy if you want, but that's your opinion, and it isn't widely shared.

I was talking about your behavior. I don't think you understand the spread of opinion on this if you think it "isn't widely shared" that it's creepy to try to control unknown women's bodies without first seeking consent.

[The Emerald Dawn]

You're removing the altruism from life again. See, "give me a smile" is synonymous with "trying to cheer them up".

The mansplaining's not necessary, thanks. I wasn't born yesterday. What you say here only confirms that, yes, you are part of the group I thought I was addressing, doing the exact thing I am talking about.

You want the women around you to be smiling, and yes, that's a relatively benign thing to want to control in the women around you. But that's a pretty low standard. And you know, as an autistic person, this is personal to me, too. Sometimes people aren't smiling because everyone shat on them that day and, among other things, they're tired of other people trying to control their emotions when it's hard-to-impossible to put a brave face on anyway.

You can't assume anything about a stranger's story. Yes, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that you're ready to respect a "no". Seriously, that's a big thing and I'm glad. But when you try to control the emotional display of others, you don't know what you're trying to control and what the unintended consequences are. Again, among other considerations, you don't know if the person you're approaching has been abused by someone who forced them to smile when they didn't want to, and you might be triggering their PTSD. They can say no and your night hums along just fine, while they struggle to deal with all the emotions that were triggered, and in a public place where they've been shamed into hiding such things.

The process of trying to justify the practice even though it is exploitative and viewed by many women as harassment (seriously, google is like, right over there, but

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/04/29/smile-your-face-is-making-people-unhappy/
http://feministing.com/2012/01/17/shit- ... to-happen/\
http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/20 ... -to-smile/
http://feminaust.org/2012/03/13/smile-s ... ing-woman/
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/01/femi ... owing.html
http://threeinchstitch.blogspot.com/201 ... sment.html

), and furthermore justifying it based merely on the person's ability to say "no" nevermind the consequences of being asked in the first place (how far are you willing to take this principle), etc. should tell you a lot about it.

I think you're better than this.

...Wow. I never thought I'd actually have to say this to someone, but what I'm doing is not "mansplaining". What I'm saying is not what you're misconstruing it as. And you are quite possibly the most paranoid person I've come across.

[Republica Newland]

The mansplaining's not necessary, thanks. I wasn't born yesterday. What you say here only confirms that, yes, you are part of the group I thought I was addressing, doing the exact thing I am talking about.

You want the women around you to be smiling, and yes, that's a relatively benign thing to want to control in the women around you. But that's a pretty low standard. And you know, as an autistic person, this is personal to me, too. Sometimes people aren't smiling because everyone shat on them that day and, among other things, they're tired of other people trying to control their emotions when it's hard-to-impossible to put a brave face on anyway.

You can't assume anything about a stranger's story. Yes, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that you're ready to respect a "no". Seriously, that's a big thing and I'm glad. But when you try to control the emotional display of others, you don't know what you're trying to control and what the unintended consequences are. Again, among other considerations, you don't know if the person you're approaching has been abused by someone who forced them to smile when they didn't want to, and you might be triggering their PTSD. They can say no and your night hums along just fine, while they struggle to deal with all the emotions that were triggered, and in a public place where they've been shamed into hiding such things.

The process of trying to justify the practice even though it is exploitative and viewed by many women as harassment (seriously, google is like, right over there, but

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/04/29/smile-your-face-is-making-people-unhappy/
http://feministing.com/2012/01/17/shit- ... to-happen/\
http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/20 ... -to-smile/
http://feminaust.org/2012/03/13/smile-s ... ing-woman/
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/01/femi ... owing.html
http://threeinchstitch.blogspot.com/201 ... sment.html

), and furthermore justifying it based merely on the person's ability to say "no" nevermind the consequences of being asked in the first place (how far are you willing to take this principle), etc. should tell you a lot about it.

I think you're better than this.

...Wow. I never thought I'd actually have to say this to someone, but what I'm doing is not "mansplaining". What I'm saying is not what you're misconstruing it as. And you are quite possibly the most paranoid person I've come across.

WTF has this thread come to? Trying to control the emotions of people around you?? Seriously,WTF?

[Mikland]

I'm 25. It's not uncontrollable, I'm just very attuned to the base necessities of life. Basically, food, sex, drugs.

Sex is not a necessity.

I really don't get what's so great about sex.

It feels good. A pretty simple concept.

[The Emerald Dawn]

...Wow. I never thought I'd actually have to say this to someone, but what I'm doing is not "mansplaining". What I'm saying is not what you're misconstruing it as. And you are quite possibly the most paranoid person I've come across.

WTF has this thread come to? Trying to control the emotions of people around you?? Seriously,WTF?

Didn't you know? I'm Spider-Woman in male disguise. I release a pheromone that causes them to do what I want.

[Choronzon]

WTF has this thread come to? Trying to control the emotions of people around you?? Seriously,WTF?

Thats exactly what hes trying to do.

By offering them a drink, which they are perfectly free to refuse.

[Republica Newland]

WTF has this thread come to? Trying to control the emotions of people around you?? Seriously,WTF?

Thats exactly what hes trying to do.

By offering them a drink, which they are perfectly free to refuse.

OH NOES DATE RAPEEE!!!!

[Choronzon]

Thats exactly what hes trying to do.

By offering them a drink, which they are perfectly free to refuse.

OH NOES DATE RAPEEE!!!!

Well right, what else would it be? Men who talk to women they don't know are just trying to get their rape on. It is known.

[Free South Califas]

The mansplaining's not necessary, thanks. I wasn't born yesterday. What you say here only confirms that, yes, you are part of the group I thought I was addressing, doing the exact thing I am talking about.

You want the women around you to be smiling, and yes, that's a relatively benign thing to want to control in the women around you. But that's a pretty low standard. And you know, as an autistic person, this is personal to me, too. Sometimes people aren't smiling because everyone shat on them that day and, among other things, they're tired of other people trying to control their emotions when it's hard-to-impossible to put a brave face on anyway.

You can't assume anything about a stranger's story. Yes, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that you're ready to respect a "no". Seriously, that's a big thing and I'm glad. But when you try to control the emotional display of others, you don't know what you're trying to control and what the unintended consequences are. Again, among other considerations, you don't know if the person you're approaching has been abused by someone who forced them to smile when they didn't want to, and you might be triggering their PTSD. They can say no and your night hums along just fine, while they struggle to deal with all the emotions that were triggered, and in a public place where they've been shamed into hiding such things.

The process of trying to justify the practice even though it is exploitative and viewed by many women as harassment (seriously, google is like, right over there, but

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/04/29/smile-your-face-is-making-people-unhappy/
http://feministing.com/2012/01/17/shit- ... to-happen/\
http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/20 ... -to-smile/
http://feminaust.org/2012/03/13/smile-s ... ing-woman/
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/01/femi ... owing.html
http://threeinchstitch.blogspot.com/201 ... sment.html

), and furthermore justifying it based merely on the person's ability to say "no" nevermind the consequences of being asked in the first place (how far are you willing to take this principle), etc. should tell you a lot about it.

I think you're better than this.

...Wow. I never thought I'd actually have to say this to someone, but what I'm doing is not "mansplaining". What I'm saying is not what you're misconstruing it as. And you are quite possibly the most paranoid person I've come across.

Dude, I told you how this thing you're endorsing is considered harassment, explained why, and gave you links. Your response, twice, has been to minimize and dismiss everyone for whom this is a serious issue while explaining that, no, see, you're really just a glimmering knight of chivalry enforcing smiles because you think women should be happy around you.

It's bizarre to hear the consequences of PTSD so roundly dismissed by you of all people. (ETA: Separately,) Considering that 1-10% (I forget the precise statistics) of people are thought to have Autism Spectrum Disorder/Difference, it's not exactly paranoid to imagine that at least one of the people you've tried to control in this way has not only dealt with the problem in that context but in the one I have lived, too.

No matter what you or anyone else says, my lived experience is real, autistic people are real, people with PTSD are real, and we have feelings.

Oh, and do you have any response to those links, or are they all just a bunch of man-hating bitches or something?

ETA: To get more specific, what is your response to this person, to whom you may have been the 800th person today telling her to smile, and after all these other people:

...People have hassled me about this for pretty much my entire life and it got worse after I incurred some facial nerve damage. Now, when I try to smile, sometimes it pulls my mouth into a grotesque leer. Sometimes one side of my mouth tilts up while the other twists down. Very rarely, I can ‘naturally’ smile. Both ends of my mouth turn up and I look ‘happy.’ Because, of course, the mouth is the only social cue for reading happiness, and people never, not ever, smile when they are not happy, right?

And I’m constantly told to smile. By complete strangers in the street. By ‘friends.’ When I worked in retail, by customers.

‘What have you got to frown about?’ ‘Smile, it would make you look so much nicer!’ ‘Why are you always frowning?’

The ‘smile, baby’ problem, as I call it, is something which a lot of people who are read as women experience. I will hazard a guess that at least some of our readers have experienced it; whatever the neutral position of your mouth is, whether or not you have nerve damage, whatever your mood at the time, someone, somewhere, has probably ordered you to smile.

It’s enough of a meme that it’s even cited as a feminist issue now and then; the smile police have some interesting intersections with how society thinks about women and their bodies. As my friend Hilary put it in frustration the other day, ‘I hate that I am expected to be nice all the time because I’m a woman.’ Not only are women expected to be nice (‘watch your tone!‘) they are also expected to be physically presentable, which means that they need to ‘smile, baby!’ ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03522.html
Miss Manners addressed the smile police in a recent column, noting:
"It is indeed both common and rude to command others to smile, as if this conferred a favor by improving their outlook on life."

ETA: It's sad that this needs to be said, especially to someone who's dismissing the lived experiences of others, but no, I don't think you're intentionally causing these problems. It's your responsibility to understand the consequences of your actions, however, and it will say a lot about you in the final analysis if you continue to dismiss them. What you call "paranoid", I call having a basic understanding of the composition of the society around you, and being considerate of others' needs. Maybe being abused and autistic and possibly having PTSD myself (according to a family member who has it and has observed my behavior anyway) makes me more sensitive to those needs, but the word I would use is "considerate". The fact that you call it "paranoid" reveals something about the privilege you're assuming. I don't think it hurts me at all to accidentally trigger someone; I'm just trying to be considerate of people when I don't know their stories.

That, and not being a 'smile baby' troll IRL.

[Free South Califas]

Thats exactly what hes trying to do.

By offering them a drink, which they are perfectly free to refuse.

OH NOES DATE RAPEEE!!!!

I see you've joined Choronzon in conflating my responses to two separate posters, and you've done him one better, ignoring my "In that case, nevermind, carry on" post that concluded the discussion where I was supposedly accusing people of being rapists.

I can only hope this isn't intended merely to get a rise out of me, but the implications of the alternatives are not flattering for you.

[Choronzon]

OH NOES DATE RAPEEE!!!!

I see you've joined Choronzon in conflating my responses to two separate posters, and you've done him one better, ignoring my "In that case, nevermind, carry on" post that concluded the discussion where I was supposedly accusing people of being rapists.

I can only hope this isn't intended merely to get a rise out of me, but the implications of the alternatives are not flattering for you.

Believe it or not, not everyone is motivated primarily by a desire to get some sort of attention from you. No one here really cares about you that much. Sorry.

Its entirely possible we can believe what you said was stupid and not give a rats ass how you might feel about our disagreement.

[The Emerald Dawn]

...Wow. I never thought I'd actually have to say this to someone, but what I'm doing is not "mansplaining". What I'm saying is not what you're misconstruing it as. And you are quite possibly the most paranoid person I've come across.

Dude, I told you how this thing you're endorsing is considered harassment, explained why, and gave you links. Your response, twice, has been to minimize and dismiss everyone for whom this is a serious issue while explaining that, no, see, you're really just a glimmering knight of chivalry enforcing smiles because you think women should be happy around you.

It's bizarre to hear the consequences of PTSD so roundly dismissed by you of all people. (ETA: Separately,) Considering that 1-10% (I forget the precise statistics) of people are thought to have Autism Spectrum Disorder/Difference, it's not exactly paranoid to imagine that at least one of the people you've tried to control in this way has not only dealt with the problem in that context but in the one I have lived, too.

No matter what you or anyone else says, my lived experience is real, autistic people are real, people with PTSD are real, and we have feelings.

Oh, and do you have any response to those links, or are they all just a bunch of man-hating bitches or something?

ETA: To get more specific, what is your response to this person, to whom you may have been the 800th person today telling her to smile, and after all these other people:

...People have hassled me about this for pretty much my entire life and it got worse after I incurred some facial nerve damage. Now, when I try to smile, sometimes it pulls my mouth into a grotesque leer. Sometimes one side of my mouth tilts up while the other twists down. Very rarely, I can ‘naturally’ smile. Both ends of my mouth turn up and I look ‘happy.’ Because, of course, the mouth is the only social cue for reading happiness, and people never, not ever, smile when they are not happy, right?

And I’m constantly told to smile. By complete strangers in the street. By ‘friends.’ When I worked in retail, by customers.

‘What have you got to frown about?’ ‘Smile, it would make you look so much nicer!’ ‘Why are you always frowning?’

The ‘smile, baby’ problem, as I call it, is something which a lot of people who are read as women experience. I will hazard a guess that at least some of our readers have experienced it; whatever the neutral position of your mouth is, whether or not you have nerve damage, whatever your mood at the time, someone, somewhere, has probably ordered you to smile.

It’s enough of a meme that it’s even cited as a feminist issue now and then; the smile police have some interesting intersections with how society thinks about women and their bodies. As my friend Hilary put it in frustration the other day, ‘I hate that I am expected to be nice all the time because I’m a woman.’ Not only are women expected to be nice (‘watch your tone!‘) they are also expected to be physically presentable, which means that they need to ‘smile, baby!’ ...

ETA: It's sad that this needs to be said, especially to someone who's dismissing the lived experiences of others, but no, I don't think you're intentionally causing these problems. It's your responsibility to understand the consequences of your actions, however, and it will say a lot about you in the final analysis if you continue to dismiss them.

Do you know why I say "give us a smile"? Because I'm fuckin' Irish and it is a figure of speech. If someone is so emotionally fragile as to break down at "give us a smile", the next thing out of my mouth is going to be, "you ok, lad/miss?" Because, again, I'm capable of having an adult conversation of someone without attempting to control them, or their thoughts, or their emotions. I could give a shit about how I feel about myself, what I'm doing is making a new acquaintance, sharing some of my life with someone else, and reaching out to people who may not be feeling quite so fucking grand.

Again, you are a paranoid rotter, and you really need to reassess how you approach issues if you do not want to spend your life tilting at imaginary windmills.