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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:19 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
That would humanize them :o Think of the consequences and all those people that have to face their fears, rather than projecting them on others in order to make themselves feel good :o

Have you ever seen a room full of paradigms shifting without a clutch?

It's hilarious. Seriously, truly hilarious.


No, not a room. Just my own. It's.... liberating :)
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Ethel mermania
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:19 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
The united imperial sector wrote:You see things like this are why we want the women in the kitchen not outside or on the computer.

Uh huh. I'd recommend not speaking in the plural, it makes you look crazy.

or pregnant, or the queen of england.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:19 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Freelanderness wrote:Yeah stereotypes are the bane of my existence.

Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?


Oh no, the fact someone is black or a woman or something is incredibly important apparently. Just ask steel magnolia.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Freelanderness
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Postby Freelanderness » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:19 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Freelanderness wrote:Yeah stereotypes are the bane of my existence.

Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?

Because you whine too much. (satire)

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Freelanderness wrote:Yeah stereotypes are the bane of my existence.


I prefer 'monotypes' myself.

Me too. Fun for messing with for visual arts projects.
. ♕ I am your LORD and saviour, for I am Jesus Christina Confess your sins, and ye shall be forgiven. ❤ .
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"What I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you cry with you or kiss you, I love you." - Evey (V for Vendetta)
Alleniana wrote:
New Manvir wrote:Well, it's obvious the Native Americans didn't really have a history. They were just loafing about, waiting for some white people to show up so the real fun could start.

The party don't start till I walk in
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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:20 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:Uh huh. I'd recommend not speaking in the plural, it makes you look crazy.

or pregnant, or the queen of england.


Or all combined.

Usually that.
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The Emerald Dawn
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:21 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:or pregnant, or the queen of england.


Or all combined.

Usually that.

If QEII gets preggers, I think the world would stop.

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The Steel Magnolia
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Founded: Dec 29, 2011
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Postby The Steel Magnolia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:21 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?


Oh no, the fact someone is black or a woman or something is incredibly important apparently. Just ask steel magnolia.


Yes because pretending social divisions don't exist will solve discrimination and sstereotypes, of course!

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:22 pm

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Oh no, the fact someone is black or a woman or something is incredibly important apparently. Just ask steel magnolia.


Yes because acting and thinking as though social divisions don't exist will solve discrimination and stereotypes, of course!


I've fixed it for you.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:22 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Or all combined.

Usually that.

If QEII gets preggers, I think the world would stop.


Well, at least all bets will be off about where the new antichrist will rise.
The Blaatschapen should resign

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The Steel Magnolia
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Postby The Steel Magnolia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:23 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Yes because acting and thinking as though social divisions don't exist will solve discrimination and stereotypes, of course!


I've fixed it for you.


That... doesn't actually change the underlying point.

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Nadkor
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Postby Nadkor » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:23 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?


Oh no, the fact someone is black or a woman or something is incredibly important apparently. Just ask steel magnolia.


Treating people like people is a good way to do your part to try and reduce social divisions, eliminate discrimination, and counter stereotypes, but it doesn't magically make any of them disappear in a puff of smoke.
economic left/right: -7.38, social libertarian/authoritarian: -7.59
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I've fixed it for you.


That... doesn't actually change the underlying point.


I'd argue that it fundamentally does.
Pretending doesn't include action.
And yes, it really would fix things if people thought and acted in ways that did not acknowledge social divisions. I can't think of a single issue where this isn't true.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Natapoc
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Okay so there are a minority (A MINORITY) of radical feminists who are trans phobic. Many radical feminists do not consider trans-phobic people to be feminists AT ALL (I actually just saw a big discussion on that in a forum I frequent that has a high percentage of radical feminists)

Perhaps that's a perception issue on my end. The vast majority of self identified radfems I've encountered have been horribly vile individuals, be it in hatred towards sex workers, transgender people, et cetera. I'm aware that such a selection may not be a true sampling of actual radfems, but I would also say that they also have the loudest voices.

At least. I'm pretty sure they did when they found out my personal information and decided to phone all of my contacts, telling them a number of particularly horrid things. I'm not trying to demonize the entire movement (though I realize I am) and I certainly acknowledge that there's likely aspects I'm unaware of, but my experience with it, and the experiences of all the trans* people I know with it have been particularly atrocious. I'm a diehard feminist, make no mistake, but I'm not sure I can ever align myself with that particular ideology.

I'm not sure if trans phobic people can be feminists or not, But I can say their trans phobia is bigotry that has no place in feminism (especially not radical feminism)

I'm inclined to agree here.

There is one area of discussion that has to be tread lightly and that's the fact that many radical feminists do not believe in gender roles at all BUT many trans people seem to cling to gender roles which frustrates many radical feminists.

I think this can be solved easily by using a little compassion and realizing that a few trans people are not what's propping up patriarchy and that really the lives of people who are transgender will be much much more easy once we eliminate gender roles and expectations.


I find that many radical feminists confuse eliminating gender roles and gender discrimination with eliminating gender.


You asked: Is eliminating patriarchy pretty much the basic principle of feminism? Well, kinda. Ideally yes but there is a lot of argument about if some feminists are actually working to destroy patriarchy, or if they are legitimizing it in the way they advocate.

There are certainly many flaws within the feminist movement, be its actions towards people of colour, political lesbianism, and rampant transphobia within the mainstream establishment (which is admittedly more of a historical problem than one that exists currently, at least insofar as much as trans* people are excluded everywhere. Michigan's Womyn's Music Festival springs to mind). Propping up the patriarchy is not a complaint I have heard levied at feminism however.

But yes Radical feminism is the branch of feminism that advocates focusing on the "root" of the problem. In case you don't believe me, source:

I don't disbelieve you, it's just something I had never been aware of before. I appreciate the info though!


Many radical feminists have serious issues with the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. There is a branch of feminism you could call separatism. That's where a lot of the things you don't like come from.

One thing I want to address: Radical feminists are against prostitution. There is no leeway here, prostitution is a form of objectification which radical feminists disagree with along with pornography.

A lot of the conflict between trans activists and radical feminists is centered around the issue of gender but that's not an excuse for trans-phobia.

Here is the problem:

"A trans activist wants the right to be seen as "boy" or "girl", a radical feminist wants the right to be seen as a person." In their efforts to be treated equally and with the respect they deserve many trans people are forced to cling to rigid gender constructs.

* note I know that trans activists want the same thing (to be treated as a person, I'm talking about the focus of their activism)

Radical feminism is against the social construction of gender (not sex), or as one radical feminist put it: "What I do rightly criticize is the social construction of gender (not sex) as an idea, not an attack on trans people.""

If it means anything to you, I don't think ANY of the radical feminists I know in real life have anything against trans people and are very accepting.

On the internet it's a different story. I don't know what it is with the internet and attracting bully's.
Last edited by Natapoc on Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Did you see a ghost?

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The Emerald Dawn
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:If QEII gets preggers, I think the world would stop.


Well, at least all bets will be off about where the new antichrist will rise.

Double points if she names him "Damian".

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:25 pm

Natapoc wrote:On the internet it's a different story. I don't know what it is with the internet and attracting bully's.


The anonymity of it. There are no consequences for your actions.
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The Steel Magnolia
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Postby The Steel Magnolia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:26 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
That... doesn't actually change the underlying point.


I'd argue that it fundamentally does.
Pretending doesn't include action.
And yes, it really would fix things if people thought and acted in ways that did not acknowledge social divisions. I can't think of a single issue where this isn't true.


That'd be great if the whole world did it.

Since they don't, it's a wonderful way to pat yourself on the back for being accepting while not doing a single fucking thing to accomplish any change for oppressed minorities.

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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:27 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote: :( That's not how life is supposed to be lived!

Good thing I have a lovely lady feeding me grapes, and another lovely lady practicing her piano and singing for us.

I'd invite you, but my plane is in the shop.

It's cool. *goes to nom on instant ramen*

Freelanderness wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?

Because you whine too much. (satire)

Women, amirite? :P

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Why can't we treat people like people, amirite?

That would humanize them :o Think of the consequences and all those people that have to face their fears, rather than projecting them on others in order to make themselves feel good :o

:shock: I did not think of that! :eek:
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
Poetry Thread | How to Not Rape | Aspergers v. Assburgers | You Might be an Altie If... | Factbook/Extension

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:27 pm

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I'd argue that it fundamentally does.
Pretending doesn't include action.
And yes, it really would fix things if people thought and acted in ways that did not acknowledge social divisions. I can't think of a single issue where this isn't true.


That'd be great if the whole world did it.

Since they don't, it's a wonderful way to pat yourself on the back for being accepting while not doing a single fucking thing to accomplish any change for oppressed minorities.


If someone differs their action as though the divisions do exist, refuse to accept it and argue against it. Do not give them your patronage if they are commercial. Do not give them your vote if they are political, etc.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:28 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:That would humanize them :o Think of the consequences and all those people that have to face their fears, rather than projecting them on others in order to make themselves feel good :o

:shock: I did not think of that! :eek:


Of course not, you're a woman.






:p
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:29 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
I knew I was being too hopeful when I expected it to be a comprehensive analysis of male privilege.

Best thing about being male?

I get to play rage metal at full volume and everyone assumes that it is normal.


the world is my pissouir. rage metal ick, give me louie and ella anyday.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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Individuality-ness
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
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Postby Individuality-ness » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:32 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:
:shock: I did not think of that! :eek:

Of course not, you're a woman.

:p

Dangnabit. :P
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
Poetry Thread | How to Not Rape | Aspergers v. Assburgers | You Might be an Altie If... | Factbook/Extension

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Freelanderness
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Postby Freelanderness » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:33 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Freelanderness wrote:Because you whine too much. (satire)

Women, amirite? :P

Yeahh, jesus laugh it was just a joke. :p
. ♕ I am your LORD and saviour, for I am Jesus Christina Confess your sins, and ye shall be forgiven. ❤ .
One of Le Sexiest NSers 2013. Call me ¡¥. Now a fascist because rape is bad, mmkay.
Meet the TET Pantheon
"What I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you cry with you or kiss you, I love you." - Evey (V for Vendetta)
Alleniana wrote:
New Manvir wrote:Well, it's obvious the Native Americans didn't really have a history. They were just loafing about, waiting for some white people to show up so the real fun could start.

The party don't start till I walk in
-Tik Tok, by Christopher Columbus

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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:33 pm

Freelanderness wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:
Women, amirite? :P

Yeahh, jesus laugh it was just a joke. :p

I did. :P
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
Poetry Thread | How to Not Rape | Aspergers v. Assburgers | You Might be an Altie If... | Factbook/Extension

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Vareiln
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Postby Vareiln » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:33 pm

What? That's not at all representative of the actual problems a male-gender person faces... If anything, it seems more like misanthropic MRA's acting up again and assuming that gender stereotypes are 100% true, even for males.

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Ethel mermania
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Posts: 126503
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:33 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Freelanderness wrote:Okay I've changed my mind. No.1 worst thing to being a male is having everyone else assume that you can't control yourself/your natural state is rapist/etc, etc.

It sucks. Men are mindless sex animals and women all actually secretly hate men and are prudes. This world sucks.


i'm not mindless.

in fact my brain is my second favorite organ.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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