7 Worst Things About Being Male

[The Emerald Dawn]

Sure, if it didn't feel like an attack on my person, I'd engage in honest conversation with people. Since it came across as an attack from a couple posters, I disengaged with snark.

Something many of you are equally guilty of in other threads.

The fact that you take "something you do is making people uncomfortable" as an attack on YOU, and not WHAT YOU DO, just proves my point.

I can't take pride in where I come from, and use idioms and gestures from that place, because it makes "people" uncomfortable. That's pretty much what is coming across. If that is not what people meant, then mayhaps they did not phrase it well enough to be understood.

[Neo Art]

Because it's inane?

I mean I'm doing the same thing in another topic with New England and I'm doing it with you now, but I do just think it's a stupid argument that people are taking to the logical conclusion for the sake of fighting about it.

I think it's pretty clear that "give me a smile" makes people uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure ED realizes that. Why is this still a discussion?

Right, because "Give me a smile" is code word for "strip naked and bend over or I'll make you with my knife."

Is it not the traditional "Hey"? No, and some people might be a bit put off by that. But not everyone, so please don't fall into the logic trap of confirmation bias.

The only people who seem to be implying that anyone here has EVER said that comment would make EVERYBODY uncomfortable are the one who seem to have a great personal stake in not accepting the fact that it makes anyone uncomfortable.

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. Any claims that Bottle, or NtaP, or I, or anybody else, has ever made such an absolute statement either needs to: 1) go back and read it again, 2) get their glasses checked, or 3) learn to accep the reality that sometimes they do things that some people don't like, and sometimes people are going to point out that they do things that people don't like, and that learning how to accept that fact, instead of whining like a petulent passive aggressive child, is part of being a fucking adult.

[The Blaatschapen]

Ok, and it is also equally possible that I don't go to places where those people frequent. Again, this is not something that is inherently universal. Just like the (oft debunked) Type-A, Type-B personalities, different people feel differently.

For serious, and so you are absolutely clear here:

I don't think you knowingly are doing this to piss people off. I believe you when you say that you genuinely believe your behavior is well received by the people around you.

However, as other people have been explaining, there are also people who won't say anything even though it does bother them. So it's possible there are people who don't like what you are doing, but they just aren't saying anything, right?

I have not, and do no, claim that it is "universal" to hate being told to smile. All I am saying is that it is pretty common. I don't have statistics for you. I also do not have an edict for you. It's up to you what you will do with this information.

Here's a comparison for you:

My buddy has a fedora. He's had it for years. In recent years, at least where we live, the fedora has become a sort of trademark of douchebags. My friend is not a douchebag. He does not want to be mistaken for one. So, he has stopped wearing his fedora as much, because he doesn't like the chance that he will be mistaken for a douchebag.

Remember: He ISN'T a douchebag. He doesn't intend to identify himself as one when he wears the fedora. But, fair or not, the fact is that a non-trivial number of people will assume he's a douchebag if he wears it, because intent is not magic and his intent will not be the only thing that decides how he is received.

Same deal here. I believe you when you say that you do not intent to come across as a jerk. That does not, however, change that it will be RECEIVED as jerkish by a lot of other people.

You can choose to wear the damn fedora anyways, and fuck everyone. My buddy does that from time to time. Nobody's trying to take your hat away.

There goes my plan to wear my fedora more often

[The Emerald Dawn]

Right, because "Give me a smile" is code word for "strip naked and bend over or I'll make you with my knife."

Is it not the traditional "Hey"? No, and some people might be a bit put off by that. But not everyone, so please don't fall into the logic trap of confirmation bias.

The only people who seem to be implying that anyone here has EVER said that comment would make EVERYBODY uncomfortable are the one who seem to have a great personal stake in not accepting the fact that it makes anyone uncomfortable.

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. Any claims that Bottle, or NtaP, or I, or anybody else, has ever made such an absolute statement either needs to: 1) go back and read it again, 2) get their glasses checked, or 3) learn to accep the reality that sometimes they do things that some people don't like, and sometimes people are going to point out that they do things that people don't like, and that learning how to accept that fact, instead of whining like a petulent passive aggressive child, is part of being a fucking adult.

Except, again, you can go back and read where I said if it offends someone I fuck off as I bloody well should.

[Neo Art]

The fact that you take "something you do is making people uncomfortable" as an attack on YOU, and not WHAT YOU DO, just proves my point.

I can't take pride in where I come from, and use idioms and gestures from that place, because it makes "people" uncomfortable. That's pretty much what is coming across. If that is not what people meant, then mayhaps they did not phrase it well enough to be understood.

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. Any claims that Bottle, or NtaP, or I, or anybody else, has ever made such an absolute statement either needs to: 1) go back and read it again, 2) get their glasses checked, or 3) learn to accep the reality that sometimes they do things that some people don't like, and sometimes people are going to point out that they do things that people don't like, and that learning how to accept that fact, instead of whining like a petulent passive aggressive child, is part of being a fucking adult.

Or, to put it another way, your oversensitivity and petulence about being told that occassionally you might do things that that upset people, and MAYBE you should consider that before you do it, is solely your problem.

Nobody elses.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I can't take pride in where I come from, and use idioms and gestures from that place, because it makes "people" uncomfortable. That's pretty much what is coming across. If that is not what people meant, then mayhaps they did not phrase it well enough to be understood.

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. Any claims that Bottle, or NtaP, or I, or anybody else, has ever made such an absolute statement either needs to: 1) go back and read it again, 2) get their glasses checked, or 3) learn to accep the reality that sometimes they do things that some people don't like, and sometimes people are going to point out that they do things that people don't like, and that learning how to accept that fact, instead of whining like a petulent passive aggressive child, is part of being a fucking adult.

Or, to put it another way, your oversensitivity and petulence about being told that occassionally you might do things that that upset people, and MAYBE you should consider that before you do it, is solely your problem.

Nobody elses.

No, it was a problem with FSC, who has since gone to moderation about it. Then the dogpile came, which I was not the only person to see. Again, I've made clear that I fuck off on request. This isn't news.

[The Blaatschapen]

Huh? I'm not allowed to disagree with people I would otherwise agree with, or people I like?

I like Emerald Dawn a lot, as far as one can like an anonymous NSG user anyway, and agree with him on a lot of things. Why does that mean I should refrain from expressing disagreement when I disagree?

I lovez you too. Because of you, I won the "I know someone from the country with the most commonly mispronounced name" contest at work yesterday.

That's only because "Holland" is not a country

[EnragedMaldivians]

Because it's inane?

I mean I'm doing the same thing in another topic with New England and I'm doing it with you now, but I do just think it's a stupid argument that people are taking to the logical conclusion for the sake of fighting about it.

I think it's pretty clear that "give me a smile" makes people uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure ED realizes that. Why is this still a discussion?

Right, because "Give me a smile" is code word for "strip naked and bend over or I'll make you with my knife."

Is it not the traditional "Hey"? No, and some people might be a bit put off by that. But not everyone, so please don't fall into the logic trap of confirmation bias.

Uncomfortable can also mean annoyed. I get annoyed when people tell me to cheer up when I'm down - but I usually just politely feign appreciation for their concern. On the rare occasion a stranger has done this, I find it very, very annoying.

And I'd rather people pick the better safe than sorry approach when making unwarranted conversations with strangers. If you're at a bar and you like making new friends there are actually better options to pick to socialise with than anyone, man or woman, who looks like they're in a bad mood. Like say, someone else who wants to socialise.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I lovez you too. Because of you, I won the "I know someone from the country with the most commonly mispronounced name" contest at work yesterday.

That's only because "Holland" is not a country

You'd be unsurprised how many of my coworkers think "Deutschland" is the Netherlands. That's where them "Dutch" come from, yeah?

[Neo Art]

Except, again, you can go back and read where I said if it offends someone I fuck off as I bloody well should.

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Except, again, you can go back and read where I said if it offends someone I fuck off as I bloody well should.

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

[Ostroeuropa]

Except, again, you can go back and read where I said if it offends someone I fuck off as I bloody well should.

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

I think you've somewhat butchered your way of phrasing this, because it seems to imply that we shouldn't do ANYTHING EVER in case someone finds it uncomfortable and has to tell us to stop.
Once you become aware that something may make individuals uncomfortable and you have met at least one of them, act prudently. But otherwise yeh, i'd say it's their job to tell you or signal to you with body language.

[The Blaatschapen]

That's only because "Holland" is not a country

You'd be unsurprised how many of my coworkers think "Deutschland" is the Netherlands. That's where them "Dutch" come from, yeah?

The terms have been mixed up a bit, yeah. Diets/Duits/Deutsch/Dutch have all the same root, meaning "people". Germans are just our Eastern brothers.

[Neo Art]

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

What a vapid defelction.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Except for the multiple people here who have said so, I suppose?

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

Right, ok, got it, so you'd only change if people tell you it bothers them, except not THESE people, they're not REALLY people, you see, because, well, they're just NOT, damn it. How very convenient.

I'll reiterrate, what a remarkably self centered way to live.

[Yarth]

Being expected to be devoid of emotion, and 'tougher' than females. Never been interested in that myself.

[The Blaatschapen]

Except, again, you can go back and read where I said if it offends someone I fuck off as I bloody well should.

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

Because, believe it or not, people generally don't know that they're making others uncomfortable unless being told so (whether by body language or normal language).

[The Emerald Dawn]

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

What a vapid defelction.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Except for the multiple people here who have said so, I suppose?

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

Right, ok, got it, so you'd only change if people tell you it bothers them, except not THESE people, they're not REALLY people, you see, because, well, they're just NOT, damn it. How very convenient.

I'll reiterrate, what a remarkably self centered way to live.

No, it really isn't a vapid deflection. It's quite apt. I can go up to someone who looks like a guy, and say, "Hey man, could you give me a hand with the chair?" And he could lose his mind because he's had a bad day, and he, is actually a she, and I've just misanalysed their person. In the same way, anything someone says can be taken as offensive should they wish to take offense to it. I can't help what other people will find offensive in all cases, and, again, I can't help but feel that people I've never met, who live in places that I don't, who haven't had experiences doing something that I have, don't necessarily have the best foundation from which to criticize me.

[Neo Art]

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

I think you've somewhat butchered your way of phrasing this, because it seems to imply that we shouldn't do ANYTHING EVER in case someone finds it uncomfortable and has to tell us to stop.
Once you become aware that something may make individuals uncomfortable and you have met at least one of them, act prudently. But otherwise yeh, i'd say it's their job to tell you or signal to you with body language.

I think that understanding basic social cues, and understanding where along the line we fall into the "yeah, this is almost CERTAINLY going to bother someone, I shouldn't do it" and "there's NO way this could reasonably bother anyone, so I'm not going to not do it on the amazingly small chance", and navigating that particular sliding scale, falls into that broad catagory of "being a fucking adult".

It's that kinda shit that we learn between ages...say...2 and 20. That's kinda what social conditioning is all ABOUT. Learning exactly where your conduct falls from "nobody should ever do this in polite company" to "generally universally socially acceptable" is part of learning how to be an adult person in functional society.

And we miss, of course, we aren't all perfect with it. Some are better than others. I am, despite what some might think here, a fucking pro at it (literally, I'm a lawyer, this kinda shit is what I do). Others are very awkward about it. Some even have disorders that, as their principle symptom, make it extremely difficult if not impossible to do that.

I don't necessarily fault anyone for FAILING at that. Sometimes they're just wrong, and that's not anybody's fault. Where I do blame them, however, is, once confronted with it, choosing to, instead of dealing like it, like, again, an adult, to instead plug their ears and scream "LALALALALAIMNOTLISTENINGIMNOTLISTENING!"

[EnragedMaldivians]

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

Yes but it's not one of those sentiments that's rare like many pet irks are. I don't expect people to accommodate themselves to the rather bizarre dislike I have for puns for instance (yes, I'm that odd; I am annoyed by puns) - but the idea that someone who looks down should not just be randomly walked up to and told to smile, is annoying, is not that uncommon (I mean just for an international perspective, I'm from the Maldives, so it's not like this being found annoying behaviour is idiosyncratic to where Bottle, NTP or CTOAN are from). Feigning polite appreciation is also not uncommon. You can't tell their sincerity. Again, strangers, mate, strangers.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I think you've somewhat butchered your way of phrasing this, because it seems to imply that we shouldn't do ANYTHING EVER in case someone finds it uncomfortable and has to tell us to stop.
Once you become aware that something may make individuals uncomfortable and you have met at least one of them, act prudently. But otherwise yeh, i'd say it's their job to tell you or signal to you with body language.

I think that understanding basic social cues, and understanding where along the line we fall into the "yeah, this is almost CERTAINLY going to bother someone, I shouldn't do it" and "there's NO way this could reasonably bother anyone, so I'm not going to not do it on the amazingly small chance", and navigating that particular sliding scale, falls into that broad catagory of "being a fucking adult".

It's that kinda shit that we learn between ages...say...2 and 20. That's kinda what social conditioning is all ABOUT. Learning exactly where your conduct falls from "nobody should ever do this in polite company" to "generally universally socially acceptable" is part of learning how to be an adult person in functional society.

And we miss, of course, we aren't all perfect with it. Some are better than others. I am, despite what some might think here, a fucking pro at it (literally, I'm a lawyer, this kinda shit is what I do). Others are very awkward about it. Some even have disorders that, as their principle symptom, make it extremely difficult if not impossible to do that.

I don't necessarily fault anyone for FAILING at that. Sometimes they're just wrong, and that's not anybody's fault. Where I do blame them, however, is, once confronted with it, choosing to, instead of dealing like it, like, again, an adult, to instead plug their ears and scream "LALALALALAIMNOTLISTENINGIMNOTLISTENING!"

And whom are you accusing of not listening, pray tell?

[Nailed to the Perch]

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

What a vapid defelction.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Except for the multiple people here who have said so, I suppose?

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

Right, ok, got it, so you'd only change if people tell you it bothers them, except not THESE people, they're not REALLY people, you see, because, well, they're just NOT, damn it. How very convenient.

I'll reiterrate, what a remarkably self centered way to live.

If I understand correctly, his argument is that we don't count because we can't hear that he says it in a cute accent. And, I mean, I think that's a pretty silly argument, but at least he has some reason why the opinions of people on the internet don't count?

I gotta say, though - I'm totally a sucker for a cute accent, but I really, really don't think it makes as much of a difference as TED seems to think, because my objection to "smile for me" has never been "the complete stranger isn't telling me to perform for him attractively enough."

[Ostroeuropa]

I think you've somewhat butchered your way of phrasing this, because it seems to imply that we shouldn't do ANYTHING EVER in case someone finds it uncomfortable and has to tell us to stop.
Once you become aware that something may make individuals uncomfortable and you have met at least one of them, act prudently. But otherwise yeh, i'd say it's their job to tell you or signal to you with body language.

I think that understanding basic social cues, and understanding where along the line we fall into the "yeah, this is almost CERTAINLY going to bother someone, I shouldn't do it" and "there's NO way this could reasonably bother anyone, so I'm not going to not do it on the amazingly small chance", and navigating that particular sliding scale, falls into that broad catagory of "being a fucking adult".

It's that kinda shit that we learn between ages...say...2 and 20. That's kinda what social conditioning is all ABOUT. Learning exactly where your conduct falls from "nobody should ever do this in polite company" to "generally universally socially acceptable" is part of learning how to be an adult person in functional society.

And we miss, of course, we aren't all perfect with it. Some are better than others. I am, despite what some might think here, a fucking pro at it (literally, I'm a lawyer, this kinda shit is what I do). Others are very awkward about it. Some even have disorders that, as their principle symptom, make it extremely difficult if not impossible to do that.

I don't necessarily fault anyone for FAILING at that. Sometimes they're just wrong, and that's not anybody's fault. Where I do blame them, however, is, once confronted with it, choosing to, instead of dealing like it, like, again, an adult, to instead plug their ears and scream "LALALALALAIMNOTLISTENINGIMNOTLISTENING!"

Much better phrased.

[Neo Art]

Believe it or not, hey, I thought maybe he'd LIKE being punched in the face, if it bothers him when I punch him in the face, I'll stop!"

Why in fuck would you put the onus on someone else to communicate TO YOU that your actions make them uncomfortable before you stop making them uncomfortable? Why is that THEIR responsibility?

What a remarkably self centered and selfish way to operate.

Because, believe it or not, people generally don't know that they're making others uncomfortable unless being told so (whether by body language or normal language).

I absolutely and steadfastly refuse to believe that people are INCAPABLE of knowing that their conduct is likely to cause discomfort in people. In fact, definitely, so intrinsic to our social functions is that skill, that the inability to do that, to understand basic social conditions, is considered a developmental disorder.

Yes, "people" damned well do know whether their conduct is going to make people uncomfortable or not, that's basic social conditioning.

[Neo Art]

What a vapid defelction.



Except for the multiple people here who have said so, I suppose?



Right, ok, got it, so you'd only change if people tell you it bothers them, except not THESE people, they're not REALLY people, you see, because, well, they're just NOT, damn it. How very convenient.

I'll reiterrate, what a remarkably self centered way to live.

If I understand correctly, his argument is that we don't count because we can't hear that he says it in a cute accent. And, I mean, I think that's a pretty silly argument, but at least he has some reason why the opinions of people on the internet don't count?

I gotta say, though - I'm totally a sucker for a cute accent, but I really, really don't think it makes as much of a difference as TED seems to think, because my objection to "smile for me" has never been "the complete stranger isn't telling me to perform for him attractively enough."

So you're saying I should develop an irish accent...ok...

QUICK, THEY'RE AFTER ME LUCKY CHARMS!

[The Emerald Dawn]

Because anything, and The Rock means anything, can insult some person out there.

If it had been my experience, through these 30 plus years of life, that what I was doing was offending people, making them uncomfortable, or insulting them, I'd change it.

Seeing as that has not, to date, been my experience, I don't see a reason to change just because some people I've never seen in real life, or interacted with beyond a forum, tells me to.

Yes but it's not one of those sentiments that's rare like many pet irks are. I don't expect people to accommodate themselves to the rather bizarre dislike I have for puns for instance (yes, I'm that odd; I am annoyed by puns) - but the idea that someone who looks down should not just be randomly walked up to and told to smile, is not that uncommon (I mean just for an international perspective, I'm from the Maldives, so it's not like this being found annoying behaviour is idiosyncratic to where Bottle, NTP or CTOAN are from). Feigning polite appreciation is also not uncommon. You can't tell their sincerity. Again, strangers, mate, strangers.

And I go up to strangers and strike up a conversation. If they don't seem interested, or they tell me they aren't interested, then I'll fuck off. I'm at a pub, I'm not at someone's house, I'm not going door-to-door like some vacuum salesman. This is a place where there is music, and dancing, and people meeting people. This is a place where people GO to meet people. I don't walk up to people in banks, or airports, or thriftmarkets, or libraries and strike up conversations.