Should Assault Weapons be banned?

[Samozaryadnyastan]

You can also buy an AR-15 that's a .50BMG bolt action rifle, or an MG34 machine gun.
Your point?

The AR-10 should not have a problem with the NATO loads, since 7.62 NATO underperforms hilariously compared to commercial .308 loadings.

[Sevvania]

The military version of the AR-15 fires a heavier bullet at a higher velocity than the civilian AR-15: firing military-grade ammo from a standard civilian AR-15 is dangerous because of the higher pressures involved, which the civilian AR-15 is not built to handle. The military version of the AR-15 is capable of three-round-burst and/or fully-automatic fire, depending on the variant: the civilian AR-15 is only capable of semi-automatic fire. The civilian AR-15 is a weapon that visually resembles the military model, but has been toned down substantially for civilian use.

So saying the civilian AR-15 was built for the Army is misleading to say the least.

no it is very accurate that is what it was designed for, and is still sold to chamber those rounds, you are confusing the AR-15 with the AR-10, you CAN buy other configurations but you can also buy ones that are bright pink or fitted for .50 beowulf rounds.

again the original AR-15 fulfills the definition of assault rifle, so using it as an example just undermines your argument.
It would be like arguing the M16 was designed for hunting because the civilian ones are single shot.

The AR-10 fires 7.62mm NATO. The AR-15 fires .223 Remington. The military M16 fires 5.56mm NATO

You can paint any gun bright pink. Muzzleloaders are commonly chambered in .50 caliber.

"The translation assault rifle gradually became the common term for similar firearms sharing the same technical definition as the StG 44. In a strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:[4][5][6]
•It must be an individual weapon with provision to fire from the shoulder (i.e. a buttstock);
•It must be capable of selective fire;
•It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle;
•Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable magazine rather than a feed-belt.
•And it should at least have a firing range of 300 meters (1000 feet)

Rifles that meet most of these criteria, but not all, are technically not assault rifles despite frequently being considered as such. For example, semi-automatic-only rifles like the AR-15 (on which the M16 rifle is based) that share parts or design characteristics with assault rifles are not assault rifles, as they are not capable of switching to automatic fire and thus are not selective-fire capable." - Assault Rifle, Wikipedia

So the AR-15 does not fulfill the definition of an assault rifle, because it is incapable of fully-automatic or burst-fire. The fact that it fires a round that is less powerful than its military counterpart only reinforces the notion that the civilian AR-15 was not designed for warfare. But if you're arguing against civilians having rifles that are similar to military models, why are you arguing against, say, the Mosin-Nagant rifle? The Mosin-Nagant fires 7.62x54mmR, which was designed for warfare (and not based on a varmint-hunting round) and is available in military configuration to civilians. Or the Lee-Enfield, which fires .303 British (a cartridge designed for killing people, not animals) and is capable of firing over thirty rounds per minute?

tl;dr: The AR-15 is feared because it is a toned-down version of a military weapon, despite the fact that actual military weapons such as the Lee-Enfield and Mosin-Nagant are perfectly acceptable because they look like hunting rifles.

[Morganutopia]

Well that's the thing: It's a very vague, unspecific definition, that can be slapped onto handguns, carbines, rifles, shotguns, and pretty much anything that has a certain look to it. One of the rifles that is most commonly classified as an "assault weapons" is the AR-15, which is a semi-automatic rifle that fires a varmint-hunting cartridge from a detachable magazine.

originally built as an assault rifle for the army.

so saying AR-15's were made for hunting is misleading to say the least.

the m16 is an assault rifle.the ar15 is a carbine .

[Tule]

There is correlation, because as firearm ownership increased by about 45% minimum, firearm homicide dropped by half.
I said 'correlation', not 'definitive and peer-reviewed evidence'.

The AWB heavily affected rifles. The AK and AR-15 platform, arguably two of the most popular semi-automatic rifle types (the US export market makes up a third of AK-100 series rifle production from the Izhmash state armoury).
And yet, rifle and shotgun violence did not significantly decline outside of existing trend.

There was no real impact on the prevalence of firearms in homicide. As a trend, it remained identical.
16,500 out of 24,500 in 1993, 8500 out of 12,500 in 2011.
Probably far better attributed to general improvements in crimefighting brought in under the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

As well as the X-generation simply growing out of criminality.

[Morganutopia]

There is correlation, because as firearm ownership increased by about 45% minimum, firearm homicide dropped by half.
I said 'correlation', not 'definitive and peer-reviewed evidence'.

The AWB heavily affected rifles. The AK and AR-15 platform, arguably two of the most popular semi-automatic rifle types (the US export market makes up a third of AK-100 series rifle production from the Izhmash state armoury).
And yet, rifle and shotgun violence did not significantly decline outside of existing trend.

There was no real impact on the prevalence of firearms in homicide. As a trend, it remained identical.
16,500 out of 24,500 in 1993, 8500 out of 12,500 in 2011.
Probably far better attributed to general improvements in crimefighting brought in under the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

As well as the X-generation simply growing out of criminality.

Also no leaded gas in the city's.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Well, looks like my hopes of a below 7500 firearm homicide 2012 have been dashed.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... s_2012.xls
Either increases over 2011, or significantly reduced rates of decline across the entire board.

[Sociobiology]

There is correlation, because as firearm ownership increased by about 45% minimum, firearm homicide dropped by half.
I said 'correlation', not 'definitive and peer-reviewed evidence'.

a correlation reverse when conditions are repeated (or tried in different populations) is either an error or due to something else.
more importantly over all there is no correlation

The AWB heavily affected rifles. The AK and AR-15 platform, arguably two of the most popular semi-automatic rifle types (the US export market makes up a third of AK-100 series rifle production from the Izhmash state armoury).

which it had little impact one, because US ownership of the AK was low.
And it affected a huge number of handguns, while affecting few purpose designed hunting rifles.

There was no real impact on the prevalence of firearms in homicide. As a trend, it remained identical.
16,500 out of 24,500 in 1993, 8500 out of 12,500 in 2011.

while in 2001 a few years before the AWB expired it was 8000 out of 16,000
Hmmmm
so during the AWB gun homicide rates fell
so when the AWB expired, gun homicides returned to pre-AWB levels
Hmmmm
you guys are really convincing me to change my position on the AWB, I might have to say it was effective.

Probably far better attributed to general improvements in crimefighting brought in under the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

I would have agreed with you until you posted those numbers, looks like the guns have strong effect.

[Sociobiology]

There is correlation, because as firearm ownership increased by about 45% minimum, firearm homicide dropped by half.
I said 'correlation', not 'definitive and peer-reviewed evidence'.

The AWB heavily affected rifles. The AK and AR-15 platform, arguably two of the most popular semi-automatic rifle types (the US export market makes up a third of AK-100 series rifle production from the Izhmash state armoury).
And yet, rifle and shotgun violence did not significantly decline outside of existing trend.

There was no real impact on the prevalence of firearms in homicide. As a trend, it remained identical.
16,500 out of 24,500 in 1993, 8500 out of 12,500 in 2011.
Probably far better attributed to general improvements in crimefighting brought in under the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

As well as the X-generation simply growing out of criminality.

not really it follows a general trend seen over most of the world for decades, violence in general has dropped as modern representative democratic states have spread/prospered.

[Tule]

As well as the X-generation simply growing out of criminality.

not really it follows a general trend seen over most of the world for decades, violence in general has dropped as modern representative democratic states have spread/prospered.

We are talking about America specifically here.

There are actually a lot of probable factors that have contributed to the decline of homicide rates in America, Two large factors are the reduction in number of young men in America and advances in trauma medicine. You are far more likely to survive a gunshot wound today than 20 years ago.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Well that's the thing: It's a very vague, unspecific definition, that can be slapped onto handguns, carbines, rifles, shotguns, and pretty much anything that has a certain look to it. One of the rifles that is most commonly classified as an "assault weapons" is the AR-15, which is a semi-automatic rifle that fires a varmint-hunting cartridge from a detachable magazine.

originally built as an assault rifle for the army.

so saying AR-15's were made for hunting is misleading to say the least.

Colt's been marketing the AR15 since the 60's as a hunting rifle, and the .223/5.56x45mm round is a derivation of the .222 Remington (a varmint/benchrest round). While it wasn't made for hunting, back in 1964 Colt knew that it would be an excellent hunting rifle. It's accurate, lightweight, easy to configure for many different calibers/optics needs/mag capacity, and has easy to manipulate controls.

http://aweb.s3.amazonaws.com/a54000/b55578.jpg

[Gun Manufacturers]

originally built as an assault rifle for the army.

so saying AR-15's were made for hunting is misleading to say the least.

The military version of the AR-15 fires a heavier bullet at a higher velocity than the civilian AR-15: firing military-grade ammo from a standard civilian AR-15 is dangerous because of the higher pressures involved, which the civilian AR-15 is not built to handle. The military version of the AR-15 is capable of three-round-burst and/or fully-automatic fire, depending on the variant: the civilian AR-15 is only capable of semi-automatic fire. The civilian AR-15 is a weapon that visually resembles the military model, but has been toned down substantially for civilian use.

So saying the civilian AR-15 was built for the Army is misleading to say the least.

The part about civilian AR15s not being able to handle the pressure from 5.56 NATO ammunition is not true. My Ar15 is chambered for the 5.56 NATO round, and it's more than strong enough to handle the pressure of surplus rounds. It is also capable of firing the .223 round (which is what I usually use, since it's much easier to find locally than the 5.56 NATO round). The problem comes in when you try to shoot 5.56 NATO in a .223 chamber (the 5.56 NATO round has a longer leade, which can generate excessive pressure in the .223 chamber).

[Norstal]

Well that's the thing: It's a very vague, unspecific definition, that can be slapped onto handguns, carbines, rifles, shotguns, and pretty much anything that has a certain look to it. One of the rifles that is most commonly classified as an "assault weapons" is the AR-15, which is a semi-automatic rifle that fires a varmint-hunting cartridge from a detachable magazine.

originally built as an assault rifle for the army.

so saying AR-15's were made for hunting is misleading to say the least.

Wait what.

Assault rifles can be used and made for hunting even if it was developed for the Army.

[Lolzieristan]

The 7.62x39mm has extremely similar ballistic characteristics compared to the .30-30 round. No one will dispute that the .30-30 is a hunting round. The Kalashnikov rifle (in civilian terms) is semi-automatic, can be accurized to within 1.5 MOA (which is really good for those of you who are less gun-inclined), and is overall a very nice weapon for shooting white-tail deer.

Now, do you mean to tell me that just because the AK was designed by a tank sergeant in the Soviet Army, for use in war, that automatically makes it fundamentally different than the Marlin .30-30 rifles, which are based on the Henry and Winchester designs (which were designed as weapons of war in their heyday as well)?

[Secius]

Guns aren't the real issue here. Its the psychological disorders and emotional trauma which incites people to these shootings. Its about the poverty that forces people who would under different circumstances be good law abiding circumstances into a life of crime. I say that guns of any kind should not be banned, but the social issues that are causes of gun violence should be eliminated first and foremost to prevent these tragedies.

That being said, I would not object to deeper background checks, mental sanity tests, and a waiting period before purchasing firearms.

[Lolzieristan]

Guns aren't the real issue here. Its the psychological disorders and emotional trauma which incites people to these shootings. Its about the poverty that forces people who would under different circumstances be good law abiding circumstances into a life of crime. I say that guns of any kind should not be banned, but the social issues that are causes of gun violence should be eliminated first and foremost to prevent these tragedies.

That being said, I would not object to deeper background checks, mental sanity tests, and a waiting period before purchasing firearms.

What exactly does the waiting period do, if you don't mind me asking? In my opinion, it caters to a tiny, if not nonexistent, sliver of crime that falls between "I'M SO MAD THAT I'M JUST GONNA FREAK THE HELL OUT, GET THE FIRST WEAPON I SEE, AND BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU WITH IT" and "I hate you, I'm going to plot out an elaborate way to kill you and get away with it."

The first type of murderer, the murder from passion, isn't going to wait around for a week to get a gun. They will likely kill the individual with a kitchen knife. The second type, the cold premeditated murderer, is totally going to wait a week. I really do not think that there is a significant middle ground. I personally disagree with waiting periods in principle.

But, if it's proven to me that it stops more than like four murders or something, I'll go with a one-week waiting period. It's just a week.

[Lafayette Ronald Hubbard]

originally built as an assault rifle for the army.

so saying AR-15's were made for hunting is misleading to say the least.

Wait what.

Assault rifles can be used and made for hunting even if it was developed for the Army.

they can also be used to fend off mobs in the event of a riot. Yeh that does sound a bit lethal and nuts but as far as I'm concerned, looters give up their rights the moment they decided nobody else's matter and acted on that conviction.

[Secius]

What exactly does the waiting period do, if you don't mind me asking? In my opinion, it caters to a tiny, if not nonexistent, sliver of crime that falls between "I'M SO MAD THAT I'M JUST GONNA FREAK THE HELL OUT, GET THE FIRST WEAPON I SEE, AND BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU WITH IT" and "I hate you, I'm going to plot out an elaborate way to kill you and get away with it."

The first type of murderer, the murder from passion, isn't going to wait around for a week to get a gun. They will likely kill the individual with a kitchen knife. The second type, the cold premeditated murderer, is totally going to wait a week. I really do not think that there is a significant middle ground. I personally disagree with waiting periods in principle.

But, if it's proven to me that it stops more than like four murders or something, I'll go with a one-week waiting period. It's just a week.

I don't know. It doesn't really matter I guess. Anything to save lives, no matter how few they are. It was just on the list of things that popped up into my mind.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

No, I'm pretty sure that My shooting steel and Clay target's at 100 yards IS a sport.

Nah, you're totally murdering those steel plates and clay targets. Totally.

Clay PIGEONS!

/dumbass

[Lolzieristan]

Wait what.

Assault rifles can be used and made for hunting even if it was developed for the Army.

they can also be used to fend off mobs in the event of a riot. Yeh that does sound a bit lethal and nuts but as far as I'm concerned, looters give up their rights the moment they decided nobody else's matter and acted on that conviction.

And semi-automatic weapons are REALLY nice for home defense. Odds are you WILL miss the first shot, esp. if you're not working with some type of shotshell with a really wide choke, and it really helps to be able to get off the second shot.

Plus, I remember reading an article in a magazine about a guy who sheltered-in-place during Katrina managed to scare off five looters circling his truck by charging them with an AKM. Chances are it wouldn't have worked as well with a single-barrel .410 pipsqueak shotgun. Assault weapons ARE scary as shit, and in my opinion it's a good thing. Just like how a number of burglars are allegedly scared off by the *kuh-clack* of a pump-action shotgun, it's another thing entirely to have a guy screaming at you in Russian while pointing a freaking Kalashnikov at your head.

Which is, of course, my prospective home defense plan, as soon as I get my Kalash. As of now it's screaming in Russian while pointing a Remington 870 at their head.

[Lafayette Ronald Hubbard]

Which is, of course, my prospective home defense plan, as soon as I get my Kalash. As of now it's screaming in Russian while pointing a Remington 870 at their head.

oh I like that one, deterrence could save both lives as opposed to just the most valuable one.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

:blink: What is a assult Weapon I have never seen one?

Anything that can release more than one projectile per activation of the release mechanism, such as when you throw a handful of rocks at a puddle.

[Llamalandia]

Never mind, I was able to find my post.

It is effectively impossible. Only island environments (Singapore, Japan, Grenada, etc.) can reasonably do it because they're islands.

And even then, when 3D printing comes along, I'm sure they'll find it impossible too.

I agree with your point about psychological empowerment; the first few weeks I had mine, I made quite a few trips to the range.

The question of whether or not there should be increased gun bans, or what specifically to do about it, is hard to resolve because (speaking from the pro-gun side) there's a prevailing attitude that anti-gunners don't even know what they're trying to ban, so that they can't do it properly. And then the statistics crowd pointing out that ARs are rarely used. And so on.

Mmhmm, well... let's work backwards, then shall we?
So, do we agree giant mechs and heavy armor tanks should illegal for private use?

I have no problem with people having vehicles as heavily armored as they would like, seeing as armor is a defense technology. Now as to the other component of tank, namely "da big guns" yeah those are not man portable arms and instead are heavy artillery which yes i do believe the government may certainly regulate strongly and even ban outright. Mechs are more of kinda a grey area really, and i mean this seriously, as concepts like powered exoskeletons may give people previously paralyzed the ability to walk and interact with the environment, so in that sense 'mechs" should be allowed. Now if you're talking giant mechwarriors with laser cannons and missile launchers yeah that the govt can prohibit.

[Llamalandia]

Which is, of course, my prospective home defense plan, as soon as I get my Kalash. As of now it's screaming in Russian while pointing a Remington 870 at their head.

oh I like that one, deterrence could save both lives as opposed to just the most valuable one.

Though that's not always a good thing, after all how much does housing and feeding recidivist armed/violent robbers cost the states. Sure the death penalty is excessive for even grand theft, but should the bad guy get wasted in the attempt to steal stuff well sorry but i just can't feel to bad for him. srry that's just where I'm at and I think it's really the bleeding heart liberals who care as much for criminal scum as they do "for the children" who are at the vanguard of the gun control movement. I'm not saying that's true of all advocates of gun control, its just my perception of most of the that lobby's leadership, I imagine if polled many would oppose the death penalty in all circumstances (though this is mere speculation on my part) so i tend to be suspicious of their motivations.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

they can also be used to fend off mobs in the event of a riot. Yeh that does sound a bit lethal and nuts but as far as I'm concerned, looters give up their rights the moment they decided nobody else's matter and acted on that conviction.

And semi-automatic weapons are REALLY nice for home defense. Odds are you WILL miss the first shot, esp. if you're not working with some type of shotshell with a really wide choke, and it really helps to be able to get off the second shot.

Plus, I remember reading an article in a magazine about a guy who sheltered-in-place during Katrina managed to scare off five looters circling his truck by charging them with an AKM. Chances are it wouldn't have worked as well with a single-barrel .410 pipsqueak shotgun. Assault weapons ARE scary as shit, and in my opinion it's a good thing. Just like how a number of burglars are allegedly scared off by the *kuh-clack* of a pump-action shotgun, it's another thing entirely to have a guy screaming at you in Russian while pointing a freaking Kalashnikov at your head.

Which is, of course, my prospective home defense plan, as soon as I get my Kalash. As of now it's screaming in Russian while pointing a Remington 870 at their head.

Ever fire an 1830 model Mosin Nagant bolt-action? Russian infantry rifle, World War II. It has the joy of the *kuh-clack* and the ability to strike a target up to almost a quarter-mile away or hiding behind 1/2 inch thick steel plate, loud as a bomb, and holds 5 rounds. Add screaming in Russian to the mix and we're talking Vasily Zaitsev.

[Llamalandia]

Nah, you're totally murdering those steel plates and clay targets. Totally.

Clay PIGEONS!

/dumbass

Wait a minute, I thought Clay Pigeons were an endangered species...quick someone call PETA and the Sierra Club and um ...the EPA... quick.