Would you date a transgender?

[Tubbsalot]

That's because gender identity issues are deeper-rooted than what is perceived to be incorrect genitalia.

If that's the case, then the surgeries and hormone treatments just put them through unnecessary pain for no reason.

why are you in university when you have no interest in, like, comprehending things

[Desperate Measures]

That's because gender identity issues are deeper-rooted than what is perceived to be incorrect genitalia.

If that's the case, then the surgeries and hormone treatments just put them through unnecessary pain for no reason.

Because all cases are the exact same.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

sauce.

Hey! No fair. He needs my sources first.

but i have mangoes.

[Hallistar]

That's because gender identity issues are deeper-rooted than what is perceived to be incorrect genitalia.

If that's the case, then the surgeries and hormone treatments just put them through unnecessary pain for no reason.

How? Sex Reassignment Therapy takes about a year, and involves all sorts of psychological testing and getting used to roleplaying as a member of the opposite sex, as well as getting used to the hormones, so that Sex Reassignment Surgery would have a very low rate of those dissatisfied with it.

[Desperate Measures]

Hey! No fair. He needs my sources first.

but i have mangoes.

Well, I...! I have no mangoes.

[Neutraligon]

Hey! No fair. He needs my sources first.

but i have mangoes.

drools while looking at mangoes. Do you plan on eating those.

[Grenartia]

Would you mind explaining?

Chalk it up to personal preference.

I mean…that theoretically should be the only reason needed.

Ok.

We've tried not giving transgender people surgery. The resulting extreme depression caused a needless loss of quality of life, and in many cases, even suicide. Surgery is by far, the best route for many transgender individuals.

If therapy won't help them, then surgery would be the only way to go, but I do think that should be the last resort. If you don't like therapy, you can simply stop. If you don't like the cosmetic change, you can't change back. I've heard way too many horror stories of people getting sex changes and not improving mentally afterwards. It's the same idea for women who get breast implants or face-lifts to improve their self-esteem. Studies show that they were not happier afterwards either.

You clearly aren't aware of how the transitioning process works.
Therapy is ALWAYS the first step. Then hormones. Then living for at least a year as the target gender (often times, since many insurance companies don't cover SRS, this ends up being longer than a year, since it is expensive). THEN sex reassignment surgery.

Also, I've seen a Danish study that's been quoted in other threads that reported that none of the study participants regretted getting SRS, years after the fact. I believe that more than your anecdotal 'horror stories'.

If that's the case, then the surgeries and hormone treatments just put them through unnecessary pain for no reason.

How? Sex Reassignment Therapy takes about a year, and involves all sorts of psychological testing and getting used to roleplaying as a member of the opposite sex, as well as getting used to the hormones, so that Sex Reassignment Surgery would have a very low rate of those dissatisfied with it.

Indeed. The process is DESIGNED to weed out people who won't benefit from SRS.

[Auralia]

No, because I don't believe you can actually change your sex.

[Grenartia]

No, because I don't believe you can actually change your sex.

You can.

[Desperate Measures]

No, because I don't believe you can actually change your sex.

You can.

Easy question. No points.

[Xathranaar]

No, because I don't believe you can actually change your sex.

Well then the question becomes, "would you date someone who was technically your sex, but in virtually every way seemed like someone of the opposite sex?"

[Stormdawn]

I've heard way too many horror stories of people getting sex changes and not improving mentally afterwards.

Because anecdotal evidence is best evidence. *Sagenod*

[Dendris]

No, I simply find it sexually/romantically unattractive, but I wouldn't mind being friends. Those who choose to do and feel the opposite have every right to do so in my book. Not my place or anyone else's to tell someone how to love and feel unless it's something along the lines of rape,stalking ,or something similar.

[Individuality-ness]

I've heard way too many horror stories of people getting sex changes and not improving mentally afterwards.

Because there are no standards, no requirements and qualifications before SRS is preformed.

[YellowApple]

I probably wouldn't. Granted, I'm not completely opposed to the idea - just as I'm not completely opposed to the idea of having a boyfriend/husband - but I generally prefer a significant other who I could look forward to marrying and having a (biological) family with, a desire which a transgender SO would not be able to easily fulfill, even with corrective surgery.

However, in the hypothetical event that I did engage in such a relationship, honesty is mandatory; said SO must be up-front about it and verify whether or not I'm alright with it.

Unrelated to my own personal views on the matter, this thread's topic reminded me of a line from The Vicar of Dibley:

That is life. Full of confusion. I found this gorgeous girl in Thailand. We snogged, well we more than snogged. I asked her to marry me, she said yes. We got married on a pineapple strewn beach. On the first night of the honeymoon she takes off all her clothes and it turns out she's a bloke called Duane.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I can't believe I read 6 pages of that shit.

Try reading every single response so far.

I have. Trust me honey I have.

[The Steel Magnolia]

What noticeable, significant male traits does a post-op MTF transsexual have?

You can't change your biological sex just like that! It is something that you are born into that is as permanent as your skin color. A sex change isn't real, it is just changing your physical appearance to look male or female but does not have the exact same body type and biological differences.

Bwahahaha why don't you tell me how the world really works.

I'll listen carefully love! Really I promise I will!

[The Steel Magnolia]

Kind of like saying bullshit without sourcing it?

I was going to get to yours, don't worry. It goes in line with what I just said. They concluded that homosexuality wasn't a mental illness based on observation of it in multiple cultures. If the logic follows, then people with schizophrenia would also not be mentally i'll because they are observable in multiple cultures as well. The conclusion isn't very consistent.

Wow you disproved your point while making it.

Based on observation not based on the state of being observed.

I swear the temptation to add "...you fuckwad" to some of my posts tonight. Good god.

[The Steel Magnolia]

The reason I think that is because many of the conclusions they make are done without testing it first. It's more of a philosophy masking as a science in some ways. You just have to sound like you are right and you are good to go. Granted, there are some areas of the field that look into brain chemistry, hormones, and stuff like that. Those are observable and testable. A lot of psych isn't, though.

What if I told you that studies have shown similarities in brain structure between MtFs and cisgendered women, and differences between MtFs and cisgendered men in those same areas?

It'd still be gender essentialist bullshit.

E: By which I mean saying the brain chemistry is similar like it means something. It undercuts our fucking point.

[The Steel Magnolia]

What if I told you that studies have shown similarities in brain structure between MtFs and cisgendered women, and differences between MtFs and cisgendered men in those same areas?

It makes sense. I'm not denying that people who undergo sex-changes are mentally normal, but I don't think surgery is the best way to go to help them. This is the only field I know of where plastic surgery is the cure for a mental problem and I find it appalling that mental therapy isn't even considered to help people come to terms with how they view themselves.

Where's Sous' list of WPATH sources.

[The Steel Magnolia]

If that's the case, then the surgeries and hormone treatments just put them through unnecessary pain for no reason.

How? Sex Reassignment Therapy takes about a year, and involves all sorts of psychological testing and getting used to roleplaying as a member of the opposite sex, as well as getting used to the hormones, so that Sex Reassignment Surgery would have a very low rate of those dissatisfied with it.

It's not really roleplaying.

SRS is also not the be all end all of gender.

[Grenartia]

What if I told you that studies have shown similarities in brain structure between MtFs and cisgendered women, and differences between MtFs and cisgendered men in those same areas?

It'd still be gender essentialist bullshit.

E: By which I mean saying the brain chemistry is similar like it means something. It undercuts our fucking point.

True, but if Rere wants observed scientific justifications for gender not being sex, I figured that was as good as anything else I knew of.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I probably wouldn't. Granted, I'm not completely opposed to the idea - just as I'm not completely opposed to the idea of having a boyfriend/husband - but I generally prefer a significant other who I could look forward to marrying and having a (biological) family with, a desire which a transgender SO would not be able to easily fulfill, even with corrective surgery.

However, in the hypothetical event that I did engage in such a relationship, honesty is mandatory; said SO must be up-front about it and verify whether or not I'm alright with it.

Unrelated to my own personal views on the matter, this thread's topic reminded me of a line from The Vicar of Dibley:

That is life. Full of confusion. I found this gorgeous girl in Thailand. We snogged, well we more than snogged. I asked her to marry me, she said yes. We got married on a pineapple strewn beach. On the first night of the honeymoon she takes off all her clothes and it turns out she's a bloke called Duane.

Oh for fuck's sake.

This is too fucking easy.

[The Steel Magnolia]

It'd still be gender essentialist bullshit.

E: By which I mean saying the brain chemistry is similar like it means something. It undercuts our fucking point.

True, but if Rere wants observed scientific justifications for gender not being sex, I figured that was as good as anything else I knew of.

True, but it doesn't actually serve our interests in the long run. Indeed, it reinforces that whole ideal of biological justification.

What'd be better is any one of the oh, I don't know, dozens of studies on trans* people or the fact that gender =/= is kind of an accepted fact... basically everywhere.

[Ensiferum]

I wouldn't. I have nothing against them but it's just not my cup of tea.