Should Public Restrooms Become Gender Neutral?

[Great Nepal]

There are public bathrooms in UK? I mean apart from those in restaurants or cafes?

[Souseiseki]

There are public bathrooms in UK? I mean apart from those in restaurants or cafes?

yes

[Sovereign Rise]

Easy:

Have men restrooms, women restrooms, and gender neutral restrooms.

However, I am generally against this idea. If I were a woman, I wouldn't feel comfortable going to the bathroom around men. But that's just me.

[Sovereign Rise]

There are public bathrooms in UK? I mean apart from those in restaurants or cafes?

What.

[Aethelstania]

Their a bar near were I live with mixed gender loos, its all cubicles and doesn't bother a huge. However I've always thought that the mens/womens seperate loo's are for the benefit of a woman anyway considering women's bathrooms (not that I've been in many) are cleaner and tend not to have pee on the seats or skidmarks in the bowl. Also to be blunt I'm more comfortable taking a crap in a room full of guys then one with a girl in - a friend of mine always run the taps in the loo beacuse she doesnt like the idea that I could hear her pee. Practicly speaking as well girls take A LONG TIME going to the loo especially when your out and this drives me bonkers especially when im bursting for a wee

[Imsogone]

I never supported denying you access to the men's room, nor did I deny men access to the women's room. I merely stated that I wanted options for people who are backwards and desirous of privacy - like me.

Okay, we're in a topic about whether or not sex-segregated rooms should be made to be unisex.

You say you're not opposed to this, but you still want an option for privacy.

...what can that possibly look like, other than sex-segregated rooms? Individual rooms?

(Actually I generally like the single room family washrooms that sometimes pop up in public places, but that's besides the point).

There are some people who are bladder-shy, they can't even use gender-separated rest rooms - it's psychological, but real. Personally, I'm from an earlier generation than you, I like being able to get away from men for a time, even though I do like them. There are a lot of women like me who see no problem with having a place where we can go to do things that we consider private and no problem allowing men who have similar psychological needs the same rights. It has nothing to do with segregating the genders in some sort of inferior-superior relationship. It has everything to do with recognizing that different people, even within the same gender, have different needs and accomodating those needs when it's practical. I would have no problem going into the men's room at the ballpark if I urgently needed to go, but in a more relaxed situation, I really do prefer to get away from unrelenting testosterone and it's not always practical for me to, for example, leave the restaurant and go home just to pee. It needs to be recognized that men and women don't always need to be in each other's pockets in order for them to be equal.

[Aurora Novus]

Easy:

Have men restrooms, women restrooms, and gender neutral restrooms.

As I've stated previously, this does not actually solve the problem at hand, as it does not justify the existence of segregated washrooms. It does not solve the fundamental injustice of the restriction.

what justification is there for the existence of separated washrooms? you may feel uncomfortable, but, well, tough.You shouldn't feel uncomfortable. you have no valid reason to feel uncomfortable around one person, simply because they have a different physical appearance than you. So society should not be expected to cater to your personal desire.

The problem isn't the lack of unisex washrooms, it's the existence of segregated washrooms to begin with.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Easy:

Have men restrooms, women restrooms, and gender neutral restrooms.

As I've stated previously, this does not actually solve the problem at hand, as it does not justify the existence of segregated washrooms. It does not solve the fundamental injustice of the restriction.

what justification is there for the existence of separated washrooms? you may feel uncomfortable, but, well, tough.You shouldn't feel uncomfortable. you have no valid reason to feel uncomfortable around one person, simply because they have a different physical appearance than you. So society should not be expected to cater to your personal desire.

The problem isn't the lack of unisex washrooms, it's the existence of segregated washrooms to begin with.

It's not just injustice, it's pointless injustice. It's people being denied their rights for no reason to further a situation which does not benefit anyone and harms plenty of us directly and indirectly.

[Aethelstania]

Easy:

Have men restrooms, women restrooms, and gender neutral restrooms.

As I've stated previously, this does not actually solve the problem at hand, as it does not justify the existence of segregated washrooms. It does not solve the fundamental injustice of the restriction.

what justification is there for the existence of separated washrooms? you may feel uncomfortable, but, well, tough.You shouldn't feel uncomfortable. you have no valid reason to feel uncomfortable around one person, simply because they have a different physical appearance than you. So society should not be expected to cater to your personal desire.

The problem isn't the lack of unisex washrooms, it's the existence of segregated washrooms to begin with.

Maybe people shouldn't be shy about going to the lee infront of someone of the opposite sex - its irrational but plenty of people do. However this is not a minority view its not society catering to a personal desire, its the desire of most people in soceity.

I dont see how segregated washrooms need to justify themselves? the only person I can ever see having a problem with it is someone who does not identify their gender as either male or female. Of all the prejudices and stress that people face I think were they go to take a crap is probably low on the list

[Neutraligon]

See this is the part of genderqueer and/or TERF radscum theory I fucking hate, because it neglects everyone who actually considers gender incredibly important. My gender identity is part of me, it is a fundamental, immutable, inextricable part of who I am. I have gone through strife and misery to validate it, so fuck anyone who says that it isn't important.

Just because gender is a social construct doesn't mean it isn't important.

Also A++ job on completely failing to understand the purpose of shelters.

Wait... gender... a social construct? To some extent yes but does anyone seriously consider gender to be completely a social construct? Because that's verifiably bullshit. Just saying...

Really, please provide a source.

[Aurora Novus]

There are some people who are bladder-shy, they can't even use gender-separated rest rooms - it's psychological, but real.

I understand that, as I am that way; it makes me uncomfortable to go to the bathroom when other people are present in the room.

But that is my personal problem, and to expect to legally or socially bar people from using the facility, simply because it makes me feel uncomfortable, is folly.

Personally, I'm from an earlier generation than you, I like being able to get away from men for a time, even though I do like them.

Which I hold is a disgusting attitude to have. Why would you judge someone based solely upon their physical appearance? What if these men all had women's bodies? Would you want to get away from them then? If not, how can you justify such an attitude when they have men's bodies? And if so, then obviously your problem isn't with body, but personality, so again, where is the justification for sex-segregation?

This is no different than saying "I like being able to ge away from the blacks/hispanics/asians".

There are a lot of women like me who see no problem with having a place where we can go to do things that we consider private and no problem allowing men who have similar psychological needs the same rights. It has nothing to do with segregating the genders in some sort of inferior-superior relationship.

Segregation doesn't require a superior-inferior dynamic; simply dividing people into equal rooms, is segregation. Further more, it doesn't matter if there are a lot of men and women who "don't have a problem" with the way things currently are; that doesn't justify it.

It has everything to do with recognizing that different people, even within the same gender, have different needs and accomodating those needs when it's practical.

Replace "black" and "white" with your ideology, and you'll understand why it's fundamentally flawed.

I would have no problem going into the men's room at the ballpark if I urgently needed to go, but in a more relaxed situation, I really do prefer to get away from unrelenting testosterone and it's not always practical for me to, for example, leave the restaurant and go home just to pee.

Why should you "want to get away" from someone in the first place, just because they have a penis? That's a horrible mindset to have.

It needs to be recognized that men and women don't always need to be in each other's pockets in order for them to be equal.

It needs to be recognized that blacks and whites don't always have to be in each other's pockets in order for them to be equal.

[Aurora Novus]

As I've stated previously, this does not actually solve the problem at hand, as it does not justify the existence of segregated washrooms. It does not solve the fundamental injustice of the restriction.

what justification is there for the existence of separated washrooms? you may feel uncomfortable, but, well, tough.You shouldn't feel uncomfortable. you have no valid reason to feel uncomfortable around one person, simply because they have a different physical appearance than you. So society should not be expected to cater to your personal desire.

The problem isn't the lack of unisex washrooms, it's the existence of segregated washrooms to begin with.

It's not just injustice, it's pointless injustice. It's people being denied their rights for no reason to further a situation which does not benefit anyone and harms plenty of us directly and indirectly.

Agreed 100%.

[Tsuntion]

Wait... gender... a social construct? To some extent yes but does anyone seriously consider gender to be completely a social construct? Because that's verifiably bullshit. Just saying...

Really, please provide a source.

Well, surely the existance of transsexual people who chose a gender role that fits their birth sex but are nonetheless the opposite gender means that it isn't purely a social construct like gender roles are and isn't nonexistant.

[Aurora Novus]

Maybe people shouldn't be shy about going to the lee infront of someone of the opposite sex - its irrational but plenty of people do.

So what? That doesn't justify it, nor does it justify society catering to it. I'm sure there were plenty of people who felt uncomfortable sharing equal rights with blacks as well, or with universal suffrage, but that didn't justify restricting those.

However this is not a minority view its not society catering to a personal desire, its the desire of most people in soceity.

It doesn't matter if it's not a minority view. This is an ad populem fallacy.

I dont see how segregated washrooms need to justify themselves?

Because it is a restriction. It is taking something out of it's naturally occurring public state. All restrictions must have justification. If things didn't work that way, we could simply pass whatever restricting laws we like, simply on a whim. "Apples are banned! I don't see why we need to justify the ban of apples, you need to justify why they shouldn't be banned!"

Logic doesn't work like that. It's your side which carries a burden of proof, and needs to justify your restriction.

the only person I can ever see having a problem with it is someone who does not identify their gender as either male or female. Of all the prejudices and stress that people face I think were they go to take a crap is probably low on the list

1) Minor evils are still evils, and are not invalidated simply because there are greater evils.
2) Not just non-binary individuals. Males and females are intrinsically harmed as well, as it restricts their freedoms. As I've repeatedly stated, what if I'm a woman, and I want to go into a male restroom for a reason (it's closer, cleaner, less busy, I'm holding a conversation with someone, ect.), or vice versa, I'm a man, wanting to go into a woman's restroom? What is your justification for banning me from doing so?

[Seshephe]

Really, please provide a source.

Well, surely the existance of transsexual people who chose a gender role that fits their birth sex but are nonetheless the opposite gender means that it isn't purely a social construct like gender roles are and isn't nonexistant.

I don't remember the exact paper but research shows quite clearly that if you do gender corrective surgery where you change a persons physical appearance at birth and then raise them as the opposite sex almost all of them will reject the assigned gender. That's some pretty damning evidence right there.
(I think I can find the source for you if you really really want)

[Souseiseki]

Well, surely the existance of transsexual people who chose a gender role that fits their birth sex but are nonetheless the opposite gender means that it isn't purely a social construct like gender roles are and isn't nonexistant.

I don't remember the exact paper but research shows quite clearly that if you do gender corrective surgery where you change a persons physical appearance at birth and then raise them as the opposite sex almost all of them will reject the assigned gender. That's some pretty damning evidence right there.
(I think I can find the source for you if you really really want)

is it going to be david reimer

[Seshephe]

I don't remember the exact paper but research shows quite clearly that if you do gender corrective surgery where you change a persons physical appearance at birth and then raise them as the opposite sex almost all of them will reject the assigned gender. That's some pretty damning evidence right there.
(I think I can find the source for you if you really really want)

is it going to be david reimer

That is one famous example, yes

[Neutraligon]

Well, surely the existance of transsexual people who chose a gender role that fits their birth sex but are nonetheless the opposite gender means that it isn't purely a social construct like gender roles are and isn't nonexistant.

I don't remember the exact paper but research shows quite clearly that if you do gender corrective surgery where you change a persons physical appearance at birth and then raise them as the opposite sex almost all of them will reject the assigned gender. That's some pretty damning evidence right there.
(I think I can find the source for you if you really really want)

Please do.

[Revolutionarily]

Well hooking up with girls could happen much easier in a socially acceptable manner. I also am sure people will not feel as comfortable going due to this. I think there should still be seperate ones. If you want most have a "family" bathroom which has both genders.

[Aurora Novus]

I also am sure people will not feel as comfortable going due to this.

I am sick and tired of seeing this trash constantly thrown about.

Is this honestly the best you people can do? Honestly? Because this is the only argument I repeatedly see brought up. "It doesn't fit my personal taste. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Baaawwwww." How can anyone take this seriously?

Personal taste is not a grounds to legislate something, especially segregation.

[Seshephe]

I don't remember the exact paper but research shows quite clearly that if you do gender corrective surgery where you change a persons physical appearance at birth and then raise them as the opposite sex almost all of them will reject the assigned gender. That's some pretty damning evidence right there.
(I think I can find the source for you if you really really want)

Please do.

As you please

[Snafturi]

Horrible idea. This makes me so angry that I could just shit.

I have never known anyone to deficate in anger before.

I've been peed on in anger before.

[Aethelstania]

Maybe people shouldn't be shy about going to the lee infront of someone of the opposite sex - its irrational but plenty of people do.

So what? That doesn't justify it, nor does it justify society catering to it. I'm sure there were plenty of people who felt uncomfortable sharing equal rights with blacks as well, or with universal suffrage, but that didn't justify restricting those.

However this is not a minority view its not society catering to a personal desire, its the desire of most people in soceity.

It doesn't matter if it's not a minority view. This is an ad populem fallacy.

I dont see how segregated washrooms need to justify themselves?

Because it is a restriction. It is taking something out of it's naturally occurring public state. All restrictions must have justification. If things didn't work that way, we could simply pass whatever restricting laws we like, simply on a whim. "Apples are banned! I don't see why we need to justify the ban of apples, you need to justify why they shouldn't be banned!"

Logic doesn't work like that. It's your side which carries a burden of proof, and needs to justify your restriction.

the only person I can ever see having a problem with it is someone who does not identify their gender as either male or female. Of all the prejudices and stress that people face I think were they go to take a crap is probably low on the list

1) Minor evils are still evils, and are not invalidated simply because there are greater evils.
2) Not just non-binary individuals. Males and females are intrinsically harmed as well, as it restricts their freedoms. As I've repeatedly stated, what if I'm a woman, and I want to go into a male restroom for a reason (it's closer, cleaner, less busy, I'm holding a conversation with someone, ect.), or vice versa, I'm a man, wanting to go into a woman's restroom? What is your justification for banning me from doing so?

1. Yes but it SO minor compared to those. Segregated toilets down to race is completely different - a black person forced to use a separate loo FELT like an injustice was done to them. Working people FELT an injustice done to them as they were disenfranchised. Your the first person I've spoken to that feels that segregation based on gender is an injustice most people male or female don't feel. I can't fault your logic but you have just taken an issue to a logical conclusion to the extent that it just becomes a bit silly!

2. All restrictions must be justified I agree. Men and women BOTH want separate toilets - why because BOTH groups (as a rule) feel more comfortable in gender separated bathrooms. Is both groups consenting to a restriction justification enough? It may be irrational, no one is pretending otherwise but thats how just about everyone feels.

3. My justification for banning you ^^ I agree minor evils are still evils but take the convocation example - I will stand outside the door wate for the woman to leave and we can continue our convocation. In the even that the mens or womens is so horrificly far away, dirty, busy that someone pops into the other gendered loo I think people tend not to care! For a practical reasons I can understand why you would argue for gender neutral bathrooms on a pracitcal level but as a matter of principle - mountains out of mole hills.

[Ermarian]

If it means replacing all the urinals with stalls, yes please. Those are icky. I really like to pee in private.

[Aurora Novus]

1. Yes but it SO minor compared to those. Segregated toilets down to race is completely different - a black person forced to use a separate loo FELT like an injustice was done to them. Working people FELT an injustice done to them as they were disenfranchised. Your the first person I've spoken to that feels that segregation based on gender is an injustice most people male or female don't feel. I can't fault your logic but you have just taken an issue to a logical conclusion to the extent that it just becomes a bit silly!

It doesn't matter if one FEELS like it is an injustice or not; justice/injustice is not based upon subjective feelings. I'm sure there were some slaves who FELT it was good to be a slave, due to the indoctrination they received.

As for it being minor, that is again, irrelevant; minor evils are still evil. So either demonstrate how it is not an evil, or concede that it should be done away with.

2. All restrictions must be justified I agree. Men and women BOTH want separate toilets - why because BOTH groups (as a rule) feel more comfortable in gender separated bathrooms. Is both groups consenting to a restriction justification enough? It may be irrational, no one is pretending otherwise but thats how just about everyone feels.

It doesn't matter if both groups concede to it, that doesn't justify it. That is, again, an ad populem argument, and one that is still based upon subjective, personal desires. Which AGAIN, is NOT A VALID RRASON TO LEGISLATE SOMETHING.

"I feel uncomfortable sharing a bus with a black man baaawwwww."
"I feel uncomfortable sharing the vote with non-property holders baawwwww."
"I feel uncomfortable sharing a lifeboat with the poor baaawwwww."

3. My justification for banning you ^^ I agree minor evils are still evils but take the convocation example - I will stand outside the door wate for the woman to leave and we can continue our convocation.

That may be fine and well for you, but why should I have to do the same? What is your justification for preventing me from walking in and continuing my conversation, simply because I have a different body? IS the room somehow toxic to my body? Will my body somehow harm others unjustly?

If not, then why should my body not be allowed in a room with someone else?

For a practical reasons I can understand why you would argue for gender neutral bathrooms on a pracitcal level but as a matter of principle - mountains out of mole hills.

This is topic specifically dedicated to the idea of gender neutral bathrooms vs. segrgeated bathrooms.

If your entire premis is "It's not a big deal, stop complaining about it"...why the fuck are you posting i this topic to begin with?