Should Public Restrooms Become Gender Neutral?

[Bottle]

Bad idea, I atleast wouldn't want to have to endure the lines this would create.

Gotta admit, that's one thing I love about Pax East...zero lines for the women's room!

[The Steel Magnolia]

Not actually what I'm arguing. Or rather, it's a mischaracterization of my position. It's not a mischaracterization that I'm surprised to see and one that's, ironically, misogynist in its phrasing, but it's still a mischaracterization.

All sexism ends up fucking over both sexes in issues like this. The point is, it's misandrist in intention. It just happens to have misogynistic implications.
What IS your posistion? Because you havn't managed to address any of the points I made there, and when I said "How do you know gender and rape are related?" you said "Do you deny most rapists are men?" so yes, that actually is your posistion. Or it's the one you've been espousing. Now, you HAVE said previously that you were tired and badly phrasing things so i'm willing to accept that you could have misspoken. In which case, please state your posistion.

I think it's counter-factual to deny there is a very persistent rape culture which primarily and nigh-exclusively has negative impacts on women far moreso than men. This is not to say that men are not impacted by this, and there is an underrunning view that men cannot be raped or that it's a joke, and that's a problem. The statistics on male victims of rape are also problematic, both because they conflate prison rape and because they deny the whole made to penetrate thing.

Rape is absolutely a gendered thing however. It is the most fundamental expression of power of another human being there is, and it is used by men primarily to do so. It expresses itself in both explicit actions and subtle commentary. Be it catcalls, rape culture, misogynistic jokes; make no mistake. Sexual violence is very, very gendered. It doesn't mean that it doesn't fuck over men too, but that doesn't mean it's misandrist.

[Jetan]

Bad idea, I atleast wouldn't want to have to endure the lines this would create.

I don't see how it would form lines.

Have you ever actually been to a place where men's room and ladies room are in visible range of each other?

[New England and The Maritimes]

I don't see how it would form lines.

Have you ever actually been to a place where men's room and ladies room are in visible range of each other?

I have never seen a bathroom line, but then I live in civilized places where facilities are adequate for expected needs.

[Ostroeuropa]

In which case it comes back to none of the points in the post being addressed. I acknowledged that they could be joking, but given the context of this long argument they might not be.
They've consistently implied that women need to be protected from men.

Gendered violence exists and is an issue. The fact that gender is an artificial construct of society doesn't change that reality, any more than the fact that race is a construct means that racism isn't an issue any more. When male-gendered people are overwhelmingly more likely to perpetrate violent assaults, and particularly when masculinity is directly linked as a causal factor in many instances of assault, I think there's a case to be made for applying gendered strategies to address the problem.

But.

I think that case has to be a damn strong one, if we're talking about restricting the freedoms of people based on gender or sex, and I sure as fuck don't think it's strong in this case.

For one thing, I don't see how "integrating" bathrooms would change the frequency with which rape happens in said bathrooms; if a guy wants to rape a woman in the bathroom, who believes that the little dress-wearing icon on the door will deter him? If anything, having one big bathroom (and therefore higher odds of there being multiple people in the bathroom at any given time) would probably increase the odds of a bystander seeing what is going on.

For another thing, the heterosexism is really barf-worthy. Yes, most rapists are men...but that is true whether the victims are male or female. How does keeping rapists in the men's room prevent them from raping men?

And, for a final thing, I find that gender segregation in general is toxic. All-male or all-female groups are far more likely (in my experience) to sink into sexist behavior patterns, and perpetuate the idea that men and women are opposites or separate species or whatever the fuck else. Rapists frequently view their victims as objects, or as somehow fundamentally not people like themselves, and I don't see how gender segregation will help fight this or improve general empathy.

I agree. That's precisely my posistion. However I think you may have come in late and somewhat misunderstood steel magnolia (Unless i'm misunderstanding you that is.), they are saying that perceived increased risk is the basis of it. They already acknowledge that there is no actual increase in risk.
I've said that's insufficient, and gave the above reasons.
I especially liked where you noted gender segregation is toxic.

[Bottle]

My home features one bathroom, and it has been used successfully by at least five males and three females in the time we've lived here, not to mention two small children who were each in the process of learning to use the potty (and therefore were more likely than average to have trouble if trouble was to be had). My partner's penis doesn't seem to impede his ability to use our toilet, and my vagina certainly hasn't gotten in my way. I'm able to dispose of tampons or pads in the same trash can he uses for tissues and q-tips.

Even if having a penis makes it somehow more difficult for a man to use the toilet, we do make bathrooms accessible to people in wheel chairs already...I don't see how having a penis could possibly be more of a handicap than being paraplegic.

That's super.

Some people, particularly in public, prefer to use a restroom that has been designed to cater for their needs. This is why men's toilets have urinals to allow large numbers of men to urinate at once in a quick and efficient manner.

I do have to wonder why, if urinals are so favored, men don't more often install them at home.

But, at any rate, most men's bathrooms I've seen have both urinals and toilets. Why couldn't a unisex bathroom have urinals and toilets?

This is why female toilets have special bins to dispose of tampons and sanitary napkins.

Some do. Many don't. So?

Is there a reason why a man could not use a stall that has a bin in it?

If there is the space to develop such a restroom then I don't see the issue with it. People of any gender are free to choose the toilet which best suits their sexual organs.

Right. So in the unisex bathroom, a man could choose to use a stall if he preferred, and a woman could use a urinal if she preferred, and vice versa, as desired. If a man wanted to use a urinal one time and then the next time wanted a stall, he could even do that!

I don't see the issue.

[Jetan]

Have you ever actually been to a place where men's room and ladies room are in visible range of each other?

I have never seen a bathroom line, but then I live in civilized places where facilities are adequate for expected needs.

So you've never been to the movies, sports match, concert etc. then? Those too uncivilized for you?

[Ostroeuropa]

All sexism ends up fucking over both sexes in issues like this. The point is, it's misandrist in intention. It just happens to have misogynistic implications.
What IS your posistion? Because you havn't managed to address any of the points I made there, and when I said "How do you know gender and rape are related?" you said "Do you deny most rapists are men?" so yes, that actually is your posistion. Or it's the one you've been espousing. Now, you HAVE said previously that you were tired and badly phrasing things so i'm willing to accept that you could have misspoken. In which case, please state your posistion.

I think it's counter-factual to deny there is a very persistent rape culture which primarily and nigh-exclusively has negative impacts on women far moreso than men. This is not to say that men are not impacted by this, and there is an underrunning view that men cannot be raped or that it's a joke, and that's a problem. The statistics on male victims of rape are also problematic, both because they conflate prison rape and because they deny the whole made to penetrate thing.

Rape is absolutely a gendered thing however. It is the most fundamental expression of power of another human being there is, and it is used by men primarily to do so. It expresses itself in both explicit actions and subtle commentary. Be it catcalls, rape culture, misogynistic jokes; make no mistake. Sexual violence is very, very gendered. It doesn't mean that it doesn't fuck over men too, but that doesn't mean it's misandrist.

How is rape gendered. You havn't demonstrated at all how it is, you've just stated it is.

[Bottle]

Have you ever actually been to a place where men's room and ladies room are in visible range of each other?

I have never seen a bathroom line, but then I live in civilized places where facilities are adequate for expected needs.

Lines are common in the US, at least in my experience, but I don't see why this would be more of a problem if bathrooms were unisex. We're not talking about eliminating half the bathroom space, after all. You'd still have the same person-to-potty ratio if all the bathrooms were unisex.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's super.

Some people, particularly in public, prefer to use a restroom that has been designed to cater for their needs. This is why men's toilets have urinals to allow large numbers of men to urinate at once in a quick and efficient manner.

I do have to wonder why, if urinals are so favored, men don't more often install them at home.

But, at any rate, most men's bathrooms I've seen have both urinals and toilets. Why couldn't a unisex bathroom have urinals and toilets?

This is why female toilets have special bins to dispose of tampons and sanitary napkins.

Some do. Many don't. So?

Is there a reason why a man could not use a stall that has a bin in it?

If there is the space to develop such a restroom then I don't see the issue with it. People of any gender are free to choose the toilet which best suits their sexual organs.

Right. So in the unisex bathroom, a man could choose to use a stall if he preferred, and a woman could use a urinal if she preferred, and vice versa, as desired. If a man wanted to use a urinal one time and then the next time wanted a stall, he could even do that!

I don't see the issue.

The important part is to maintain the CURRENT ratio.
I've pointed out that if we just built a huge mens bathroom and let women in too, there would be too many urinals for optimal efficiency.
Imagine it more as smashing down the wall currently blocking traffic from flowing between the two.
So instead of 50% stall 50% urinal, we'd see more along the lines of 75/25.

[Jetan]

I have never seen a bathroom line, but then I live in civilized places where facilities are adequate for expected needs.

Lines are common in the US, at least in my experience, but I don't see why this would be more of a problem if bathrooms were unisex. We're not talking about eliminating half the bathroom space, after all. You'd still have the same person-to-potty ratio if all the bathrooms were unisex.

Oh, it would definately cut the ladies line. That cut would go to the men's line so to speak. I don't want that because I'm a selfish bastard. Without going to more details, the problem isn't how many people use the stall, but for how long.

[New England and The Maritimes]

I have never seen a bathroom line, but then I live in civilized places where facilities are adequate for expected needs.

So you've never been to the movies, sports match, concert etc. then? Those too uncivilized for you?

I've been to all the above. No lines at any of them.

[Bottle]

So you've never been to the movies, sports match, concert etc. then? Those too uncivilized for you?

I've been to all the above. No lines at any of them.

I'm more than willing to concede that the USA is uncivilized. Can we move on now?

[Jetan]

So you've never been to the movies, sports match, concert etc. then? Those too uncivilized for you?

I've been to all the above. No lines at any of them.

Where do you live? Even here in Finland there is lines an there is less people in the whole country than in many cities in other parts of the world.

[Vitaphone Racing]

That's super.

Some people, particularly in public, prefer to use a restroom that has been designed to cater for their needs. This is why men's toilets have urinals to allow large numbers of men to urinate at once in a quick and efficient manner.

I do have to wonder why, if urinals are so favored, men don't more often install them at home.

Space, plumbing requirements (the same as installing a shower) and the general fact they stink.

But, at any rate, most men's bathrooms I've seen have both urinals and toilets. Why couldn't a unisex bathroom have urinals and toilets?

Because generally if you've got a bathroom large enough to accommodate a urinal, you can easily run a partioning wall through it to make two separate toilets. I don't see why a unisex toilet couldn't have urinals and toilets but I don't see why a toilet needs to be unisex in the first place.

This is why female toilets have special bins to dispose of tampons and sanitary napkins.

Some do. Many don't. So?

In Australia I think it's the law that these facilities are provided for women's restrooms.

Is there a reason why a man could not use a stall that has a bin in it?

Nope, but if you can assure women will only use three toilets it's easier to take care of three rather than six bins.

If there is the space to develop such a restroom then I don't see the issue with it. People of any gender are free to choose the toilet which best suits their sexual organs.

Right. So in the unisex bathroom, a man could choose to use a stall if he preferred, and a woman could use a urinal if she preferred, and vice versa, as desired. If a man wanted to use a urinal one time and then the next time wanted a stall, he could even do that!

I don't see the issue.

I don't see the issue with the way things are done in the first place.

[Ostroeuropa]

In the UK lines for restrooms are typically similar, mostly because we tend to go in groups.

Someone will decide to roll a bladder-check and need the bathroom and everyone goes "We'll come with you and also urinate!"
since friend-groups are now a lot more mixed between male and female, this has led to comparable lines.

[New England and The Maritimes]

I've been to all the above. No lines at any of them.

Where do you live? Even here in Finland there is lines an there is less people in the whole country than in many cities in other parts of the world.

I came from Maine. I live in a city now. I've never once had to wait to use a bathroom. >_>

I've been to all the above. No lines at any of them.

I'm more than willing to concede that the USA is uncivilized. Can we move on now?

Yes.

I think segregation based on anything only contributes to an atmosphere of hatred and mysticism. The fewer opportunities you have to even see a woman/man in person, the less likely you are to realize that they're people just like you.

[Choronzon]

Please try.

Because men and woman doing their business in the same room just isn't done...unless you're a couple, or family. Its rude for the same reason that being naked in public is rude. I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned in thinking that men and woman should have privacy when doing their business- a place where you don't have to worry about not looking your best, not being viewed by the opposite sex in a very private moment, not being embarassed? I suppose.

IDK, gender neutral restrooms for more than one occupant just strike me as a bad idea.

People should get the fuck over naked in public too. This puritan shame folks are conditioned to feel for their own bodies is so 16th century.

Really, you don't have a reason why this is a bad idea beyond, "I would feel uncomfortable." To which I say, "Thats nice, you'll get over it."

[Distruzio]

There will never be actual equality until this happens.

Which, of course, means I disapprove.

[Jetan]

Where do you live? Even here in Finland there is lines an there is less people in the whole country than in many cities in other parts of the world.

I came from Maine. I live in a city now. I've never once had to wait to use a bathroom. >_>

Well, consider yourself lucky. And an exception.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because men and woman doing their business in the same room just isn't done...unless you're a couple, or family. Its rude for the same reason that being naked in public is rude. I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned in thinking that men and woman should have privacy when doing their business- a place where you don't have to worry about not looking your best, not being viewed by the opposite sex in a very private moment, not being embarassed? I suppose.

IDK, gender neutral restrooms for more than one occupant just strike me as a bad idea.

People should get the fuck over naked in public too. This puritan shame folks are conditioned to feel for their own bodies is so 16th century.

Really, you don't have a reason why this is a bad idea beyond, "I would feel uncomfortable." To which I say, "Thats nice, you'll get over it."

It's an economic thing.
We can't let people not buy clothes, imagine what'd happen when all the lazy fucks decided not to buy clothes because everyones ok with it now.
That's a whole sector of the economy out the window

[Bottle]

I do have to wonder why, if urinals are so favored, men don't more often install them at home.

Space, plumbing requirements (the same as installing a shower) and the general fact they stink.

But, at any rate, most men's bathrooms I've seen have both urinals and toilets. Why couldn't a unisex bathroom have urinals and toilets?

Because generally if you've got a bathroom large enough to accommodate a urinal, you can easily run a partioning wall through it to make two separate toilets. I don't see why a unisex toilet couldn't have urinals and toilets but I don't see why a toilet needs to be unisex in the first place.

Some do. Many don't. So?

In Australia I think it's the law that these facilities are provided for women's restrooms.

Is there a reason why a man could not use a stall that has a bin in it?

Nope, but if you can assure women will only use three toilets it's easier to take care of three rather than six bins.

Right. So in the unisex bathroom, a man could choose to use a stall if he preferred, and a woman could use a urinal if she preferred, and vice versa, as desired. If a man wanted to use a urinal one time and then the next time wanted a stall, he could even do that!

I don't see the issue.

I don't see the issue with the way things are done in the first place.

Oh! Well then I can help!

The current arrangement:

-Creates discomfort and even out-right danger for trans people.
-Makes things difficult for parents with young children, since a father is not permitted to use the same bathroom as his 7 year old daughter, and so on.
-Often results in inefficient use of space, since dividing walls take up floor space and create more crowded bathrooms.
-Can contribute to the gender-segregated culture that many of us find harmful and objectionable.

Now you know!

[Vitaphone Racing]

Because men and woman doing their business in the same room just isn't done...unless you're a couple, or family. Its rude for the same reason that being naked in public is rude. I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned in thinking that men and woman should have privacy when doing their business- a place where you don't have to worry about not looking your best, not being viewed by the opposite sex in a very private moment, not being embarassed? I suppose.

IDK, gender neutral restrooms for more than one occupant just strike me as a bad idea.

People should get the fuck over naked in public too. This puritan shame folks are conditioned to feel for their own bodies is so 16th century.

Really, you don't have a reason why this is a bad idea beyond, "I would feel uncomfortable." To which I say, "Thats nice, you'll get over it."

My reasons for why this is bad would be a complete nightmare trying to sort out sexual harassment from unintentional indecent exposure and contact.

[Sibirsky]

They have unisex bathrooms here in the US, but those are pretty much a toilet and a sink, so in reality only one person could use it at a time. I'm pretty sure the logic behind those is that they're for parents with young children, so women don't have to take their son into the women's bathroom and vice-versa.

As for a unisex bathroom that can fit multiple people, that's just dumb. But then this is the same place that wants to ban "Mr./Ms./Miss" so as to not offend the trannies...

Why is it dumb? Do you share stalls with men, and are unwilling to share with women because they have cooties or something?

You don't share stalls with men? And you won't share them with women? So what's changed?

[Ostroeuropa]

Space, plumbing requirements (the same as installing a shower) and the general fact they stink.


Because generally if you've got a bathroom large enough to accommodate a urinal, you can easily run a partioning wall through it to make two separate toilets. I don't see why a unisex toilet couldn't have urinals and toilets but I don't see why a toilet needs to be unisex in the first place.


In Australia I think it's the law that these facilities are provided for women's restrooms.


Nope, but if you can assure women will only use three toilets it's easier to take care of three rather than six bins.


I don't see the issue with the way things are done in the first place.

Oh! Well then I can help!

The current arrangement:

-Creates discomfort and even out-right danger for trans people.
-Makes things difficult for parents with young children, since a father is not permitted to use the same bathroom as his 7 year old daughter, and so on.
-Often results in inefficient use of space, since dividing walls take up floor space and create more crowded bathrooms.
-Can contribute to the gender-segregated culture that many of us find harmful and objectionable.

Now you know!

Not only inefficient space, straight up mothballed stalls that lie unused despite demand for more stalls at any one time.