Should Public Restrooms Become Gender Neutral?

[Defensor]

Hmmm, I can see where you're getting at. But let me ask you this...will society be impacted in a big way forever if this happens or not?

Not really.

Again, no one here is claiming this to be the evil of evils, or a great harm. I've stated repeatedly it's a minor sin at most.

But it is the topic of conversation...so we're talking about it.

Consequently, coming in here and saying "It's not a big deal, so stop talking about it" seems counter-intuitive.

Irrelevantly, I stated as such to calm what seemed like a heated conversation between you and another person concering this subject. Too heated, if you ask me, for a subject as insignificant as "gender neutral bathrooms"

[Aurora Novus]

Having the symbolic presence of segregation in this does a lot to reinforce gender roles and ideas like "You have to have friends of the same sex." and such.

True, I had not considered that. The act itself may be minor, but the symbolism is a bigger issue.

[Oceania-Eurasia-Eastasia]

This thread lost me when the tracks swerved into the alleged dangers of someone being sexually aroused and / or compelled to rape just being in the same room with someone of the opposite sex dropping a deuce.

[Costa Alegria]

I wouldn't mind if they had proper toilets but I would refuse to go anywhere near those squat toilets. It's only slightly more dignified that doing it on the street.

[Defensor]

Hmmm, I can see where you're getting at. But let me ask you this...will society be impacted in a big way forever if this happens or not?

I think it will.
The desegregation of the last major activity of human affairs would leave us with only an ever-dwindling sexuality related sexism, and an increasingly no longer tolerated workplace sexism, segregated bathrooms are curiously put up with for some reason.
Having the symbolic presence of segregation in this does a lot to reinforce gender roles and ideas like "You have to have friends of the same sex." and such.
If we remove bathroom segregation, then the only thing most people will counter in day to day lives that is gendered in nature will be ...well, thats just it.
They wont encounter it.
That would be a HUGE step forward in terms of abolishing the imaginary boundaries we build.

While theoreticaly I agree with you, I don't think many people even bother to think about it that way. Most people just go into the proper bathroom without really thinking about it. I feel like no one really feels a barrier. Maybe when all bathrooms are gender neutral we'll feel like a social barrier has been removed, but who knows for sure, you know? I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should something taken more lightly than most are taking it now.

[Vallakova]

because it adds to the grossness. like I have said I have cleaned a lot of bathrooms and your right they are bad enough already as same sex SO WHY MAKE THEM WORSE?

Let me ask you this:

If you have to clean both the men's and women's restrooms, as separate rooms, then you end up having to clean up the same amount of mess as if the two rooms were combined into one room, correct?

My point of sharing that I have cleaned both restrooms was not to be taken as something I was referring to for the sake of the janitor, but rather to say that I have seen what is done in both rooms, My point however was for the user who would NEVER have known what was in the opposite sex's bathroom if they had their own room. so yes it does make a difference because it might be the same amount of mess for the janitor but its NOT the same for the user.

[Aurora Novus]

say its the middle of the night at a 24/7 store in a smaller town and its graveyard shift, so very little traffic guy goes in waits , girl comes in boom rape, because of the lateness of the hour the likelihood of another person coming in before the rape is done not so good. Stranger things have happened.

And...segregated rooms prevent this...how?

Why no generalize them?

Because not everyone is the same, simply because they have a penis or vagina.

Also like I said most of us just act differently in the bathroom than the other sex

Again, why does this justify separating them?

Further more, if this difference is socially created, and not inherent, why treat it like it's a legitimate difference?

and I am a man so i can tell you that I HAVE NEVER MET A GUY WHO WOULD JUST LOVE to hear you tell a personal story while he takes a shit

I have.

Also, is that how you think women "chit chat" in the bathroom? By talking while shitting? No, they stand around and talk while not the in the middle os trying to squeeze one out of themselves. You know, like anybody would. Plenty of men have small discussions while the the restroom.

SO YES THEY ARE incapable of acting differently in the same BATHroom.

How? You haven't shown how it is impossible for women to chit chat in a room, while men walk in and out, taking care of their business.

And as far as it being bad enough already with its nasty smells and grossness, YES THAT IS MY POINT IT IS BAD ENOUGH ALREADY! WHY MAKE IT WORSE BY ADDING TO THE VARIETY OF STINK???

You are missing my point.

If you have to clean up the same amount of mess, just in two separate rooms, how does it become "worse" when in the same room? It's the same amount and kind of mess.

[Vallakova]

BTW it was the last post on the page so in case you missed it....

This argument has been shot down so many times already. What is your justification for making this claim?



And? Are they incapable of acting differently within the same room?

Also, don't generalize the sexes.



The rest of this can be summarized as "men and women in the bathroom are gross!"

I'm sure people of the same sex don't like to deal with it as it is. What makes the opposite sex so special?

say its the middle of the night at a 24/7 store in a smaller town and its graveyard shift, so very little traffic guy goes in waits , girl comes in boom rape, because of the lateness of the hour the likelihood of another person coming in before the rape is done not so good. Stranger things have happened.

Why no generalize them? we are speaking of the general activities that occur in their each respective bathrooms are we not? its not specific people that would be using the restroom but GENERALLY EVERYBODY so generalizing the sexes is completely called for. Also like I said most of us just act differently in the bathroom than the other sex, also know a lot about this too, I am gay so I've kicked it with chicks in plenty of female bathrooms, such as my friend Christina for example I had to hold her peruse (fuck if I know why) because she swore she needed two hands to put on eyeliner, and one time my friend Wendy got soo drunk that I had to hold her hair while she threw up. So yes most girls chit chat in the bathroom, not all of them do, but most of them do, because I've noticed that most women DON'T GO TO THE BATHROOM ALONE, they usually use the buddy system for some reason. and I am a man so i can tell you that I HAVE NEVER MET A GUY WHO WOULD JUST LOVE to hear you tell a personal story while he takes a shit, most won't even talk at the urinal, except for the occasional, ,"I'll be outside", or something to that affect. sure they might quickly finish a conversation while walking in, but they aren't talking while they do the deed, and they are definitely not just "hanging" around by the mirror chit chatting. As a matter of fact I think the ONLY place I have ever seen guys do that in a bathroom was at a gay bar.

SO YES THEY ARE incapable of acting differently in the same BATHroom.

And as far as it being bad enough already with its nasty smells and grossness, YES THAT IS MY POINT IT IS BAD ENOUGH ALREADY! WHY MAKE IT WORSE BY ADDING TO THE VARIETY OF STINK???

[Ostroeuropa]

I think it will.
The desegregation of the last major activity of human affairs would leave us with only an ever-dwindling sexuality related sexism, and an increasingly no longer tolerated workplace sexism, segregated bathrooms are curiously put up with for some reason.
Having the symbolic presence of segregation in this does a lot to reinforce gender roles and ideas like "You have to have friends of the same sex." and such.
If we remove bathroom segregation, then the only thing most people will counter in day to day lives that is gendered in nature will be ...well, thats just it.
They wont encounter it.
That would be a HUGE step forward in terms of abolishing the imaginary boundaries we build.

While theoreticaly I agree with you, I don't think many people even bother to think about it that way. Most people just go into the proper bathroom without really thinking about it. I feel like no one really feels a barrier. Maybe when all bathrooms are gender neutral we'll feel like a social barrier has been removed, but who knows for sure, you know? I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should something taken more lightly than most are taking it now.

I've managed to strike a balance. I throw in poopy jokes and cussing while discussing it because I enjoy cussing

[Defensor]

While theoreticaly I agree with you, I don't think many people even bother to think about it that way. Most people just go into the proper bathroom without really thinking about it. I feel like no one really feels a barrier. Maybe when all bathrooms are gender neutral we'll feel like a social barrier has been removed, but who knows for sure, you know? I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should something taken more lightly than most are taking it now.

I've managed to strike a balance. I throw in poopy jokes and cussing while discussing it because I enjoy cussing

Ah yes, the art of cussing. So fucking awesome!

[Ostroeuropa]

BTW it was the last post on the page so in case you missed it....

Are you able to tell the difference between female-laid bricks and male-laid ones?
Thats...an odd talent that i'd be interested to know how you found out about...or rather not interested. Don't tell us, please. It's probably best left unsaid.

Secondly, if someone is planning to rape someone, do you think that them waiting in a gender-neutral bathroom where EITHER gender could walk in at any moment, or waiting in a bathroom where they are virtually guaranteed the next entrant WILL be of their desired gender, is more likely to be their prefered set up?
Somehow, I doubt rapists will see the sign and think "Well, i'm all for rape but entering the wrong bathroom is just going too far."

[Lidli]

Ewww. The whole point of them being seperate is privacy. It is so women dont have to worry about some perv trying to peek into their stall and guys dont have to stand around waiting for a bunch of gossiping girls to be done in front of the sink mirrors, putting on their make up or whatever. Keep them seperate.

[Afalia]

They have same sex bathrooms in a lot of places on the continent. France, Spain, Italy etc. Only Germany is still like Britain. I had to use same sex bathrooms in Spain this summer and personally it was no big deal. As long as it's got decent amounts of privacy it's fine.

The only downside is I won't be able to feel a certain victory when I walk straight into the men's toilets at theatres and such, whilst passing by the long queue of women.

[Vallakova]

say its the middle of the night at a 24/7 store in a smaller town and its graveyard shift, so very little traffic guy goes in waits , girl comes in boom rape, because of the lateness of the hour the likelihood of another person coming in before the rape is done not so good. Stranger things have happened.

And...segregated rooms prevent this...how?

Why no generalize them?

Because not everyone is the same, simply because they have a penis or vagina.

Also like I said most of us just act differently in the bathroom than the other sex

Again, why does this justify separating them?

Further more, if this difference is socially created, and not inherent, why treat it like it's a legitimate difference?

and I am a man so i can tell you that I HAVE NEVER MET A GUY WHO WOULD JUST LOVE to hear you tell a personal story while he takes a shit

I have.

Also, is that how you think women "chit chat" in the bathroom? By talking while shitting? No, they stand around and talk while not the in the middle os trying to squeeze one out of themselves. You know, like anybody would. Plenty of men have small discussions while the the restroom.

SO YES THEY ARE incapable of acting differently in the same BATHroom.

How? You haven't shown how it is impossible for women to chit chat in a room, while men walk in and out, taking care of their business.

And as far as it being bad enough already with its nasty smells and grossness, YES THAT IS MY POINT IT IS BAD ENOUGH ALREADY! WHY MAKE IT WORSE BY ADDING TO THE VARIETY OF STINK???

You are missing my point.

If you have to clean up the same amount of mess, just in two separate rooms, how does it become "worse" when in the same room? It's the same amount and kind of mess.

And once again everyone is different yes, but we are talking about the general public here so yes generalizing is necessary because of MAJORITY, everyone is different but when you get EVERYONE together there are just certain things we all do, and some of those things depend on sex, its just the way it is so yes everyone separately is an individual but Not collectively they are not! Also I never said women talk while shitting, just that they usually talk to each other in the bathroom I.E.. while putting on makeup, ect.... and the ones who ARE shitting have to listen to it. I know its not a long dialogue of emotion and whatever like I stated it wasn't in my original post, but it is a fact that women converse more than men in the bathroom, and honestly I have no idea where you where you walked into a mens bathroom and seen guys just talking away but its definitely not the norm, because I have NEVER seen it. Also you must not be a women cause I am sure almost any women here would tell you there are just some things Dudes just shouldn't over hear! and also scroll up because I already answered your last question of the stink issue, as well I never said rape was impossible when they are separate shit no happens all the time, I just basically said it would make it more likely, thought that was obvious so I didn't elaborate on it sheesh my bad from now on I will just make sure to tell it all in detail.

Not to mention you still haven't answered the pee on the seat thing, or the toilet seat being up thing. women and men fight about this in their own homes all the time and you think it wont be a problem in PUBLIC places? shit my aunt just jumped my cousins ass the other day for leaving the seat up saying she almost fell in and shit, sure most women will look (hopefully) but the truth is that I have heard them bitch enough about it already in private bathrooms that I doubt they will look in public ones.

And personally respond what you will cause I'm done here, mainly because i don't think I care if you think I'm wrong and I don't think I care that I think your wrong.

What I do think however is that arguing about the SHITTER is plainly retarded and having my simply posted opinion on the subject turn to a full blown debate over who should poop where is a complete wait of time. Sure if it was Religion, or Immigration issues or something actually IMPORTANT, I might care because One thing I can agree with you on is that even though i think it will make a difference and be upsetting and you obviously don't , it won't be a huge deal no matter whether it is a deal or not. But on a final note , if you don't think it will cause any problems think again, the POLL disagrees and the majority DON'T LIKE IT, and that you can argue with all you want but public opinion is public opinion and when it comes to bathrooms the majority has already spoken. Men stay to yours and women stick to yours. And if you don't think that matters, think again because unless you live under a non-democratic society, the peoples opinion is ALL that matters.

[Vallakova]

BTW it was the last post on the page so in case you missed it....

Are you able to tell the difference between female-laid bricks and male-laid ones?
Thats...an odd talent that i'd be interested to know how you found out about...or rather not interested. Don't tell us, please. It's probably best left unsaid.

Secondly, if someone is planning to rape someone, do you think that them waiting in a gender-neutral bathroom where EITHER gender could walk in at any moment, or waiting in a bathroom where they are virtually guaranteed the next entrant WILL be of their desired gender, is more likely to be their prefered set up?
Somehow, I doubt rapists will see the sign and think "Well, i'm all for rape but entering the wrong bathroom is just going too far."

and my last note to you is , unless you can keep up with ALL the posts I have posted don't bother because you obviously didn't read where I already addressed your non-sense. but then this is all non-sense anyway so I'm outty to find something to post about actually worth the effort of debate.



OH WAIT I SEE NOW! Most ( and I said MOST, and I'm assuming by how some of the posts are worded but im sure you will crucify me for that too) of you are from Europe I get it ok, different society different rules, well then let me be plain....

This shit would never fly in AMERICA! oh and since I promised to cross all my t's the unisex ones we do have are one person at a time only. because like the above nation said, its mostly PRIVACY

[Conscentia]

I see no reason why not. Cohabiting & married heterosexual couples generally share a single bathroom anyway so men & women sharing toilet facilities is hardly anything new.

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you able to tell the difference between female-laid bricks and male-laid ones?
Thats...an odd talent that i'd be interested to know how you found out about...or rather not interested. Don't tell us, please. It's probably best left unsaid.

Secondly, if someone is planning to rape someone, do you think that them waiting in a gender-neutral bathroom where EITHER gender could walk in at any moment, or waiting in a bathroom where they are virtually guaranteed the next entrant WILL be of their desired gender, is more likely to be their prefered set up?
Somehow, I doubt rapists will see the sign and think "Well, i'm all for rape but entering the wrong bathroom is just going too far."

and my last note to you is , unless you can keep up with ALL the posts I have posted don't bother because you obviously didn't read where I already addressed your non-sense. but then this is all non-sense anyway so I'm outty to find something to post about actually worth the effort of debate.



OH WAIT I SEE NOW! Most ( and I said MOST, and I'm assuming by how some of the posts are worded but im sure you will crucify me for that too) of you are from Europe I get it ok, different society different rules, well then let me be plain....

This shit would never fly in AMERICA! oh and since I promised to cross all my t's the unisex ones we do have are one person at a time only. because like the above nation said, its mostly PRIVACY

You actually didn't address any of my points anywhere. (I just double-checked.)

[Snafturi]

This shit would never fly in AMERICA! oh and since I promised to cross all my t's the unisex ones we do have are one person at a time only. because like the above nation said, its mostly PRIVACY

Except there's already been at least three Americans in this thread who have used multi person unisex bathrooms in America and can attest to the fact that American society hasn't collapsed because of it. Also, that nobody who used them really thought they were that big of a deal, and those that did got over their hesitations quite quickly.

[Ethel mermania]

you mean it isn't harm?

because society gets to define what society does. sex has always been treated differently than other activities, which is a societal choice. Any free government that expects its people to suck up and deal wiht something they do not want to suck up and deal with is not governing with the consent of the governed.

So? This is a discussion about what is the most just and moral action. Just because someone wants something, doesn't make it just or moral. And as we have seen in the past, certain people's desires went unseen, because society declared fulfilling them to be something they would not tolerate.

Just because sex has been treated as some special, taboo subject, doesn't justify treating it as such. All it does is push the question back. Why should it have become tradition in the first place? What justifies it being treated that way?

You're not solving the question, you're just making it more complicated, by adding unnecessary hoops.

give the people what they want is fairly simple.

it became a tradition because that is what the folks wanted.

again you have to prove "harm" something that you do not like is not harm.

[Ethel mermania]

i don't really care if it stays a male restroom and female restroom or gender neutral.

if people have a problem with public restrooms being gender neutral, than don't use the public restrooms...

This.

so they should shit their pants?

[Aurora Novus]

give the people what they want is fairly simple.

So rapists should be allowed to rape?

Or are we going to finally stop treating "I want it" as a sound argument?

it became a tradition because that is what the folks wanted.

That doesn't justify it; why should it have become tradition in the first place?

again you have to prove "harm" something that you do not like is not harm.

The harm is in the denial of freedom. In denying me and others something. It can also be argued, as it was just above, that segregating bathrooms can fed sexist notions about how one lives out their life. It can also be argued, as it has, that unisex rooms would be safer.

Beyond that though, no, I don't need to prove any harm. Why? Because unisex is the natural state. Segregated rooms are an alteration to what you would find in nature. Therefore, they require justification.

If segregated rooms don't have justification, heir lack of justification, is what justifies replacing them with unisex rooms, as to enforce something which has no justification onto other unwilling participants, is an injustice.

[Esternial]

give the people what they want is fairly simple.

So rapists should be allowed to rape?

Or are we going to finally stop treating "I want it" as a sound argument?

Yes. Rape and smoking are completely comparable.

Because we all know cigarettes are actually being lit on fire without their consent.

[Freiheit Reich]

Bad idea, I think a lot of conservative types will feel uncomfortable. Also, will women be cool with passing by men peeing in urinals and possibly catching peeks. What if your daughter is 12 years old and a man is showing his sausage? Will he get in trouble for harassment? I see some possible sexual harassment cases (justified and unjustified) coming out of this. We would then need video cameras for court cases but that means you will be watched while making yellow water.

Many problems, a stupid idea.

[Choronzon]

Bad idea, I think a lot of conservative types will feel uncomfortable.

Thats all the more reason to do it. The discomfort of prudes and bigots should not hold back progress.

Also, will women be cool with passing by men peeing in urinals and possibly catching peeks.

Why do you assume that all men are perverts? This says more about you than you probably intended.

What if your daughter is 12 years old and a man is showing his sausage?

Why do you assume all men are perverts?

Also, a public place with people constantly entering and leaving is a really shitty place to rape.

Will he get in trouble for harassment? I see some possible sexual harassment cases (justified and unjustified) coming out of this. We would then need video cameras for court cases but that means you will be watched while making yellow water.

Unsubstantiated, baseless, paranoid bullshit.

Many problems, a stupid idea.

You haven't demonstrated this.

The fact that the "best" argument against this is "But what about rape!" as if women peeing near you will increase the prospect of rape reveals quite a bit about the people who oppose this.

[Ethel mermania]

give the people what they want is fairly simple.

So rapists should be allowed to rape?

Or are we going to finally stop treating "I want it" as a sound argument?

it became a tradition because that is what the folks wanted.

That doesn't justify it; why should it have become tradition in the first place?

again you have to prove "harm" something that you do not like is not harm.

The harm is in the denial of freedom. In denying me and others something. It can also be argued, as it was just above, that segregating bathrooms can fed sexist notions about how one lives out their life. It can also be argued, as it has, that unisex rooms would be safer.

Beyond that though, no, I don't need to prove any harm. Why? Because unisex is the natural state. Segregated rooms are an alteration to what you would find in nature. Therefore, they require justification.

If segregated rooms don't have justification, heir lack of justification, is what justifies replacing them with unisex rooms, as to enforce something which has no justification onto other unwilling participants, is an injustice.

you have to prove harm in order to prove discrimination. harm generally is concered economic. brown v board. focused on how seperate but equal really wasn't, in terms of spending and outcomes.

in nature you would not find any restrooms at all. that does not mean they should not be provided in civilization.