NATION

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Are Republicans holding the US back?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Are the Republicans holding back the social and economic progress of the United States?

Yes
513
58%
No
242
27%
Yes and No (Specify?)
117
13%
Undecided
15
2%
 
Total votes : 887

User avatar
Obamacult
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Nov 23, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Obamacult » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:28 pm

The central government is holding back America. Both parties are responsible.

Indeed, our government was never designed to do much of anything except provide for the national defense and intentionally decentralize, balance, limit and make transparent the elements of coercion in society in order to forestall the emergence of absolutism.

Moreover, the citizenry could watch the political warfare with amusement knowing that whoever gained temporary ascendancy would not matter much to the average citizen since the federal government did not have the power to interfere excessively in the private lives of the citizenry.

And this system of Constitutional Federal Republicanism has been very effective at promoting and protecting civil and political rights over the ages.

However, all this begin to change when statists discovered that our system did not provide sufficient protections against economic coercion from politicians and their cronies bearing preferential tax and regulatory favors for special interest votes and bribes. When the government began to slowly intrude into the private lives of individuals and enterprises by mismanaging and bankrupting retirement, finance, transportation, health care, education, energy, etc. our doom was sealed.

It is necessary to return to founding principles in which the federal govt. did what it was designed to do: protect life, liberty, private property and enforce legal contracts and leave the rest of governing to the individual states.

Indeed, government that governs closest to the people, governs best.

The following is an outline or base blueprint on this change:

Fallacy #1 -- empowering the individual states to manage health care, education, retirement, transportation, etc. is a return to the Articles of Confederation


This is a typical strawman argument from the peanut gallery because Washington would still be responsible for national defense and insuring unrestricted commerce between the individual states. Hence, the Bill of Rights would remain intact and life, liberty, private property and contracts would still be protected by the Federal government. The only difference is that governance of most economic issues would return to the states or the individual as was the case for over 100 years after the Constitution was ratified in the late 1780's.

Fallacy #2 -- The Federal government is doing just fine managing health care and retirement.


The United States government paid over $400,000,000,000 per year on the average to service a debt of over $16,000,000,000,000 over the last four years. Moreover, the average interest payment for the last ten years is over $350,000,000,000 and growing!

If this doesn't expose the peanut gallery argument that 'the debt doesn't matter' as pure deluded and destructive bullshit, then nothing will. To illustrate the opportunity costs of this expenditure (in 2008 dollars), it would pay the salaries of 4,000,000 teachers, 25,000 junior highs, 8000 hospitals (4-8 stories), 100,000 nursing homes, etc.

Fallacy #3 -- It is incredibly bad to have a short-lived private sector monopoly within a single industry, but the Mother of All Monopolies represented by a leviathan government that lords over virtually all commerce with unchallenged monopolistic tax and regulatory policy is hunky dory?!!


This pretty much exposes the ridiculous house of cards ideological foundation upon which statism rests. For example, they become apoplectic when faced with a single monopoly within a single industry that can easily be overcome with competition, boycotts, substitution goods, etc. In contrast, statists fawn over the monopoly in Washington that is protected from competition, boycotts, and substitution goods by threat of violence. If you examine the way Washington does business and how it deals with the citizenry -- it is a textbook example of an unyielding, coercive and destructive monopoly that no private sector monopoly has ever or will ever approach in the size and scope of coercion.

Fallacy #4 -- Profit is bad.


Profit informs a free society where capital and labor must be allocated to provide the most benefits based on the preferences of free people and NOT some politician or bureaucrat acting in his own interest. Indeed, firms that make the most profit best satisfy consumer preferences in a free society through voluntary exchanges that always benefit everyone involved in the exchange or the transaction would never have occurred.

Without profit, society has no idea of where to allocate scarce resources. Government cannot efficiently or rationally manage societal resources due to the economic calculation problem outlined below:

Economic Calculation Problem of Command Economies

Fallacy #5 -- Statists say we should downsize banks so they are not too big to fail, but a huge monopolistic government in Washington that borrows 40 cents on every dollar and is paying interest on debt of over 100% of GDP and growing is fine the way it is??!!


Indeed, my view is that government in Washington is too big to fail and by breaking up this inefficient and oppressive monopoly control over economic issues. Washington still maintains its role protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts by control of the armed forces, federal law enforcement and legal arbiter of last resort. Moreover if a state went bankrupt, the Feds would treat this the same as any large scale private bankruptcy and assume temporary ownership and restructuring responsibility until the state could get back on its feet.

Fallacy #6 -- The debt doesn't matter because who owe it to ourselves or it won't effect us ?!!


The debt must be addressed and there is only a few ways this can happen:

1) higher taxes that will cause capital and talent to offshore thereby further eroding the tax base. Indeed, there are some drones who say this isn't a problem despite the fact that Obama mentioned numerous times during the recent campaign that it is A PROBLEM.

2) print money that will debase the currency causing interest rates to rise, inflation that is the cruelest tax of all on the poor, debt payments to rise, loss of confidence in the US government and ultimate capitulation.

3) more borrowing that will cause America's credit worthiness to decline, interest rates to rise, debt to increase, further leading to a series of debilitating economic decision that will ultimately be thrust on the lap of Main Street in significantly reduced growth, decreases in discretionary income and declining living standards.

4) eliminate or reduce promised benefits in social security and health care leading to lower standards of living. Indeed, this is generational theft since young people paying into the system today will never get anything close to what they contribute into the system.

Fallacy #7 -- Smaller populations and smaller states have less efficient governments ???!!


Absurd, the geopolitic has myriad examples of governments smaller than most US states that function very well within societies of small populations. Indeed, the ten least corrupt states (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Singapore, Canada, etc.) all have populations less then many US states. Moreover, many small nations have strong records of economic growth, civil and political rights (Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Norway, etc.)

Fallacy #8 -- Government that governs closest to the people is NOT the best governance ??!!


How anyone can logically conclude that a one-size fits all solution emanating from bureaucrats and politicians in Washington is more accountable and responsive than government from a state capital far closer to the people and more intimate with each states unique problems?

Unfortunately, it is true that many leftwing ideologues think that a bureaucrat or politician thousands of miles removed from society in Washington is better able to decide what a citizen needs or wants than that citizen himself.

This is the very definition of arrogance and tyranny. Nonetheless, I am sure that these leftists can find a state that suits their needs and be comforted in the fact that their state of choice will provide the highest standards of living. Yet we all know that they won't accept this bargain because deep down they fear competition and free choice because it will expose the absurdity and bankruptcy of their ideology.

In contrast, government that governs closest to the people governs best. It is obvious, these politicians will be serving their constituents with money from their district for their district. They know best how to fund and where to fund and what projects to fund. Indeed, every state and community has its own unique problems and strengths that require local experts to address, not some clueless bureaucrat thousands of miles removed from the problem.

Fallacy #9 -- Choice and competition are not beneficial??!!


This is the typical sentiment of tyrants and their dupes. They reject competition because they know their coercive and destructive schemes would fall like a house of cards if faced with freedom of choice by the citizenry. Indeed, it would be extremely beneficial to have a United States in which the economic services currently mismanaged by the coercive monopoly in Washington was suddenly downsized and broken-up into 50 disparate and competing state enterprises.

We have seen that smaller states can function and manage public goods as efficiently as any large state and in many cases far more efficiently and with less corruption and more accountability. Moreover, the United States would have a supreme advantage over these smaller states in Europe, Latin American and the Asian Pacific Rim in that our competing states would still share the same language, legal system, national defense, and all of its citizens and commerce could travel unrestricted from state to state.

Indeed, the only change would be to transfer economic management of responsibilities to the individual states that all rational, objective and independent thinking citizens recognized that our large and unresponsive Federal government has failed to deliver with any measure of financial responsibility.

Moreover, if a citizen does not trust or appreciate the level of government services provided, it is far easier to move across state lines than to move to another nation. Indeed, the Federal government would insure that commerce and labor could travel unrestricted across state lines (commerce clause).

In sum, it is manifestly absurd and delusional to think that 50 states competing for the favors of the citizenry would be less responsive and accountable than a single massive coercive central government monopoly in Washington.

Fallacy #10 -- Obamacult is a intolerant and rigid ideologue.


This is laughable and hypocritical coming from a forum that is universally dominated by leftwing dogma while I am generally the only conservative-libertarian arguing for a particular point of view.

In sum, I am the lone conservative voice within a leftwing echo chamber, and yet amusingly, I am called intolerant?!!

Fallacy # 11 -- My vote during Federal elections matters.


This is really an indictment on the absurdity of voting in Presidential elections when your vote is worth 1/120,000,000 and to make matters worse, it is for the lesser of two evils.

Indeed, if power was transferred to the states, your vote would be demonstrably more valuable since it would be among far less competitors. Moreover, it is far easier for a third party candidate or party to make inroads within a targeted state then in a national election. Hence, a transfer of economic power to the states would lend itself to a more responsive and dynamic political competition that would make it easier for third party candidates to leverage an advantage in a couple states with electorates favorable to their policies. Moreover, your vote, while still hardly a determining factor, would still account for more weight than national elections where it is virtually useless, particularly in the 80% of the states that represent non-battleground states.

Fallacy #12 -- I benefit more when the federal government spends my taxes.


Wrong, when taxes go to the federal government the benefits are dispersed among 310 million citizens among a land mass that is demonstrably larger than any single state. In contrast, taxpayers at the state level are far more likely to directly benefit from tax expenditures for obvious reasons.

Fallacy #13 -- The federal government can more effectively and impartially promote and preserve civil and political rights while managing myriad economic responsibilities at the same time.


Of course, the opposite is true. When the federal government oversees redistribution of trillions of dollars in tax and regulatory policy -- it invites the kind of corruption that rots and destroys nations from the inside out in a mountain of corruption and cronyism. Indeed, by removing the money from the federal government -- it can more effectively accomplish its primary beneficial responsibility of protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts.

To use an analogy, the federal government is the preeminent 'referee' in the economy in particular and society in general -- however when this referee enters the game as a profit-seeking 'player' -- then its ability to make accurate and fair calls is severely and irreparably compromised to the detriment of society.

User avatar
Ashmoria
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46718
Founded: Mar 19, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ashmoria » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:48 pm

wouldnt your blueprint for a better america be more reasonably put into a new thread?
whatever

User avatar
Frisivisia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18164
Founded: Aug 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Frisivisia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:52 pm

Obamacult wrote:The central government is holding back America. Both parties are responsible.

Indeed, our government was never designed to do much of anything except provide for the national defense and intentionally decentralize, balance, limit and make transparent the elements of coercion in society in order to forestall the emergence of absolutism.

Moreover, the citizenry could watch the political warfare with amusement knowing that whoever gained temporary ascendancy would not matter much to the average citizen since the federal government did not have the power to interfere excessively in the private lives of the citizenry.

And this system of Constitutional Federal Republicanism has been very effective at promoting and protecting civil and political rights over the ages.

However, all this begin to change when statists discovered that our system did not provide sufficient protections against economic coercion from politicians and their cronies bearing preferential tax and regulatory favors for special interest votes and bribes. When the government began to slowly intrude into the private lives of individuals and enterprises by mismanaging and bankrupting retirement, finance, transportation, health care, education, energy, etc. our doom was sealed.

It is necessary to return to founding principles in which the federal govt. did what it was designed to do: protect life, liberty, private property and enforce legal contracts and leave the rest of governing to the individual states.

Indeed, government that governs closest to the people, governs best.

The following is an outline or base blueprint on this change:

Fallacy #1 -- empowering the individual states to manage health care, education, retirement, transportation, etc. is a return to the Articles of Confederation


This is a typical strawman argument from the peanut gallery because Washington would still be responsible for national defense and insuring unrestricted commerce between the individual states. Hence, the Bill of Rights would remain intact and life, liberty, private property and contracts would still be protected by the Federal government. The only difference is that governance of most economic issues would return to the states or the individual as was the case for over 100 years after the Constitution was ratified in the late 1780's.

Fallacy #2 -- The Federal government is doing just fine managing health care and retirement.


The United States government paid over $400,000,000,000 per year on the average to service a debt of over $16,000,000,000,000 over the last four years. Moreover, the average interest payment for the last ten years is over $350,000,000,000 and growing!

If this doesn't expose the peanut gallery argument that 'the debt doesn't matter' as pure deluded and destructive bullshit, then nothing will. To illustrate the opportunity costs of this expenditure (in 2008 dollars), it would pay the salaries of 4,000,000 teachers, 25,000 junior highs, 8000 hospitals (4-8 stories), 100,000 nursing homes, etc.

Fallacy #3 -- It is incredibly bad to have a short-lived private sector monopoly within a single industry, but the Mother of All Monopolies represented by a leviathan government that lords over virtually all commerce with unchallenged monopolistic tax and regulatory policy is hunky dory?!!


This pretty much exposes the ridiculous house of cards ideological foundation upon which statism rests. For example, they become apoplectic when faced with a single monopoly within a single industry that can easily be overcome with competition, boycotts, substitution goods, etc. In contrast, statists fawn over the monopoly in Washington that is protected from competition, boycotts, and substitution goods by threat of violence. If you examine the way Washington does business and how it deals with the citizenry -- it is a textbook example of an unyielding, coercive and destructive monopoly that no private sector monopoly has ever or will ever approach in the size and scope of coercion.

Fallacy #4 -- Profit is bad.


Profit informs a free society where capital and labor must be allocated to provide the most benefits based on the preferences of free people and NOT some politician or bureaucrat acting in his own interest. Indeed, firms that make the most profit best satisfy consumer preferences in a free society through voluntary exchanges that always benefit everyone involved in the exchange or the transaction would never have occurred.

Without profit, society has no idea of where to allocate scarce resources. Government cannot efficiently or rationally manage societal resources due to the economic calculation problem outlined below:

Economic Calculation Problem of Command Economies

Fallacy #5 -- Statists say we should downsize banks so they are not too big to fail, but a huge monopolistic government in Washington that borrows 40 cents on every dollar and is paying interest on debt of over 100% of GDP and growing is fine the way it is??!!


Indeed, my view is that government in Washington is too big to fail and by breaking up this inefficient and oppressive monopoly control over economic issues. Washington still maintains its role protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts by control of the armed forces, federal law enforcement and legal arbiter of last resort. Moreover if a state went bankrupt, the Feds would treat this the same as any large scale private bankruptcy and assume temporary ownership and restructuring responsibility until the state could get back on its feet.

Fallacy #6 -- The debt doesn't matter because who owe it to ourselves or it won't effect us ?!!


The debt must be addressed and there is only a few ways this can happen:

1) higher taxes that will cause capital and talent to offshore thereby further eroding the tax base. Indeed, there are some drones who say this isn't a problem despite the fact that Obama mentioned numerous times during the recent campaign that it is A PROBLEM.

2) print money that will debase the currency causing interest rates to rise, inflation that is the cruelest tax of all on the poor, debt payments to rise, loss of confidence in the US government and ultimate capitulation.

3) more borrowing that will cause America's credit worthiness to decline, interest rates to rise, debt to increase, further leading to a series of debilitating economic decision that will ultimately be thrust on the lap of Main Street in significantly reduced growth, decreases in discretionary income and declining living standards.

4) eliminate or reduce promised benefits in social security and health care leading to lower standards of living. Indeed, this is generational theft since young people paying into the system today will never get anything close to what they contribute into the system.

Fallacy #7 -- Smaller populations and smaller states have less efficient governments ???!!


Absurd, the geopolitic has myriad examples of governments smaller than most US states that function very well within societies of small populations. Indeed, the ten least corrupt states (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Singapore, Canada, etc.) all have populations less then many US states. Moreover, many small nations have strong records of economic growth, civil and political rights (Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Norway, etc.)

Fallacy #8 -- Government that governs closest to the people is NOT the best governance ??!!


How anyone can logically conclude that a one-size fits all solution emanating from bureaucrats and politicians in Washington is more accountable and responsive than government from a state capital far closer to the people and more intimate with each states unique problems?

Unfortunately, it is true that many leftwing ideologues think that a bureaucrat or politician thousands of miles removed from society in Washington is better able to decide what a citizen needs or wants than that citizen himself.

This is the very definition of arrogance and tyranny. Nonetheless, I am sure that these leftists can find a state that suits their needs and be comforted in the fact that their state of choice will provide the highest standards of living. Yet we all know that they won't accept this bargain because deep down they fear competition and free choice because it will expose the absurdity and bankruptcy of their ideology.

In contrast, government that governs closest to the people governs best. It is obvious, these politicians will be serving their constituents with money from their district for their district. They know best how to fund and where to fund and what projects to fund. Indeed, every state and community has its own unique problems and strengths that require local experts to address, not some clueless bureaucrat thousands of miles removed from the problem.

Fallacy #9 -- Choice and competition are not beneficial??!!


This is the typical sentiment of tyrants and their dupes. They reject competition because they know their coercive and destructive schemes would fall like a house of cards if faced with freedom of choice by the citizenry. Indeed, it would be extremely beneficial to have a United States in which the economic services currently mismanaged by the coercive monopoly in Washington was suddenly downsized and broken-up into 50 disparate and competing state enterprises.

We have seen that smaller states can function and manage public goods as efficiently as any large state and in many cases far more efficiently and with less corruption and more accountability. Moreover, the United States would have a supreme advantage over these smaller states in Europe, Latin American and the Asian Pacific Rim in that our competing states would still share the same language, legal system, national defense, and all of its citizens and commerce could travel unrestricted from state to state.

Indeed, the only change would be to transfer economic management of responsibilities to the individual states that all rational, objective and independent thinking citizens recognized that our large and unresponsive Federal government has failed to deliver with any measure of financial responsibility.

Moreover, if a citizen does not trust or appreciate the level of government services provided, it is far easier to move across state lines than to move to another nation. Indeed, the Federal government would insure that commerce and labor could travel unrestricted across state lines (commerce clause).

In sum, it is manifestly absurd and delusional to think that 50 states competing for the favors of the citizenry would be less responsive and accountable than a single massive coercive central government monopoly in Washington.

Fallacy #10 -- Obamacult is a intolerant and rigid ideologue.


This is laughable and hypocritical coming from a forum that is universally dominated by leftwing dogma while I am generally the only conservative-libertarian arguing for a particular point of view.

In sum, I am the lone conservative voice within a leftwing echo chamber, and yet amusingly, I am called intolerant?!!

Fallacy # 11 -- My vote during Federal elections matters.


This is really an indictment on the absurdity of voting in Presidential elections when your vote is worth 1/120,000,000 and to make matters worse, it is for the lesser of two evils.

Indeed, if power was transferred to the states, your vote would be demonstrably more valuable since it would be among far less competitors. Moreover, it is far easier for a third party candidate or party to make inroads within a targeted state then in a national election. Hence, a transfer of economic power to the states would lend itself to a more responsive and dynamic political competition that would make it easier for third party candidates to leverage an advantage in a couple states with electorates favorable to their policies. Moreover, your vote, while still hardly a determining factor, would still account for more weight than national elections where it is virtually useless, particularly in the 80% of the states that represent non-battleground states.

Fallacy #12 -- I benefit more when the federal government spends my taxes.


Wrong, when taxes go to the federal government the benefits are dispersed among 310 million citizens among a land mass that is demonstrably larger than any single state. In contrast, taxpayers at the state level are far more likely to directly benefit from tax expenditures for obvious reasons.

Fallacy #13 -- The federal government can more effectively and impartially promote and preserve civil and political rights while managing myriad economic responsibilities at the same time.


Of course, the opposite is true. When the federal government oversees redistribution of trillions of dollars in tax and regulatory policy -- it invites the kind of corruption that rots and destroys nations from the inside out in a mountain of corruption and cronyism. Indeed, by removing the money from the federal government -- it can more effectively accomplish its primary beneficial responsibility of protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts.

To use an analogy, the federal government is the preeminent 'referee' in the economy in particular and society in general -- however when this referee enters the game as a profit-seeking 'player' -- then its ability to make accurate and fair calls is severely and irreparably compromised to the detriment of society.

If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?
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User avatar
Terraius
Minister
 
Posts: 3073
Founded: Oct 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Terraius » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:03 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Obamacult wrote:The central government is holding back America. Both parties are responsible.

Indeed, our government was never designed to do much of anything except provide for the national defense and intentionally decentralize, balance, limit and make transparent the elements of coercion in society in order to forestall the emergence of absolutism.

Moreover, the citizenry could watch the political warfare with amusement knowing that whoever gained temporary ascendancy would not matter much to the average citizen since the federal government did not have the power to interfere excessively in the private lives of the citizenry.

And this system of Constitutional Federal Republicanism has been very effective at promoting and protecting civil and political rights over the ages.

However, all this begin to change when statists discovered that our system did not provide sufficient protections against economic coercion from politicians and their cronies bearing preferential tax and regulatory favors for special interest votes and bribes. When the government began to slowly intrude into the private lives of individuals and enterprises by mismanaging and bankrupting retirement, finance, transportation, health care, education, energy, etc. our doom was sealed.

It is necessary to return to founding principles in which the federal govt. did what it was designed to do: protect life, liberty, private property and enforce legal contracts and leave the rest of governing to the individual states.

Indeed, government that governs closest to the people, governs best.

The following is an outline or base blueprint on this change:

This is a typical strawman argument from the peanut gallery because Washington would still be responsible for national defense and insuring unrestricted commerce between the individual states. Hence, the Bill of Rights would remain intact and life, liberty, private property and contracts would still be protected by the Federal government. The only difference is that governance of most economic issues would return to the states or the individual as was the case for over 100 years after the Constitution was ratified in the late 1780's.



The United States government paid over $400,000,000,000 per year on the average to service a debt of over $16,000,000,000,000 over the last four years. Moreover, the average interest payment for the last ten years is over $350,000,000,000 and growing!

If this doesn't expose the peanut gallery argument that 'the debt doesn't matter' as pure deluded and destructive bullshit, then nothing will. To illustrate the opportunity costs of this expenditure (in 2008 dollars), it would pay the salaries of 4,000,000 teachers, 25,000 junior highs, 8000 hospitals (4-8 stories), 100,000 nursing homes, etc.



This pretty much exposes the ridiculous house of cards ideological foundation upon which statism rests. For example, they become apoplectic when faced with a single monopoly within a single industry that can easily be overcome with competition, boycotts, substitution goods, etc. In contrast, statists fawn over the monopoly in Washington that is protected from competition, boycotts, and substitution goods by threat of violence. If you examine the way Washington does business and how it deals with the citizenry -- it is a textbook example of an unyielding, coercive and destructive monopoly that no private sector monopoly has ever or will ever approach in the size and scope of coercion.



Profit informs a free society where capital and labor must be allocated to provide the most benefits based on the preferences of free people and NOT some politician or bureaucrat acting in his own interest. Indeed, firms that make the most profit best satisfy consumer preferences in a free society through voluntary exchanges that always benefit everyone involved in the exchange or the transaction would never have occurred.

Without profit, society has no idea of where to allocate scarce resources. Government cannot efficiently or rationally manage societal resources due to the economic calculation problem outlined below:

Economic Calculation Problem of Command Economies



Indeed, my view is that government in Washington is too big to fail and by breaking up this inefficient and oppressive monopoly control over economic issues. Washington still maintains its role protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts by control of the armed forces, federal law enforcement and legal arbiter of last resort. Moreover if a state went bankrupt, the Feds would treat this the same as any large scale private bankruptcy and assume temporary ownership and restructuring responsibility until the state could get back on its feet.



The debt must be addressed and there is only a few ways this can happen:

1) higher taxes that will cause capital and talent to offshore thereby further eroding the tax base. Indeed, there are some drones who say this isn't a problem despite the fact that Obama mentioned numerous times during the recent campaign that it is A PROBLEM.

2) print money that will debase the currency causing interest rates to rise, inflation that is the cruelest tax of all on the poor, debt payments to rise, loss of confidence in the US government and ultimate capitulation.

3) more borrowing that will cause America's credit worthiness to decline, interest rates to rise, debt to increase, further leading to a series of debilitating economic decision that will ultimately be thrust on the lap of Main Street in significantly reduced growth, decreases in discretionary income and declining living standards.

4) eliminate or reduce promised benefits in social security and health care leading to lower standards of living. Indeed, this is generational theft since young people paying into the system today will never get anything close to what they contribute into the system.



Absurd, the geopolitic has myriad examples of governments smaller than most US states that function very well within societies of small populations. Indeed, the ten least corrupt states (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Singapore, Canada, etc.) all have populations less then many US states. Moreover, many small nations have strong records of economic growth, civil and political rights (Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Norway, etc.)



How anyone can logically conclude that a one-size fits all solution emanating from bureaucrats and politicians in Washington is more accountable and responsive than government from a state capital far closer to the people and more intimate with each states unique problems?

Unfortunately, it is true that many leftwing ideologues think that a bureaucrat or politician thousands of miles removed from society in Washington is better able to decide what a citizen needs or wants than that citizen himself.

This is the very definition of arrogance and tyranny. Nonetheless, I am sure that these leftists can find a state that suits their needs and be comforted in the fact that their state of choice will provide the highest standards of living. Yet we all know that they won't accept this bargain because deep down they fear competition and free choice because it will expose the absurdity and bankruptcy of their ideology.

In contrast, government that governs closest to the people governs best. It is obvious, these politicians will be serving their constituents with money from their district for their district. They know best how to fund and where to fund and what projects to fund. Indeed, every state and community has its own unique problems and strengths that require local experts to address, not some clueless bureaucrat thousands of miles removed from the problem.



This is the typical sentiment of tyrants and their dupes. They reject competition because they know their coercive and destructive schemes would fall like a house of cards if faced with freedom of choice by the citizenry. Indeed, it would be extremely beneficial to have a United States in which the economic services currently mismanaged by the coercive monopoly in Washington was suddenly downsized and broken-up into 50 disparate and competing state enterprises.

We have seen that smaller states can function and manage public goods as efficiently as any large state and in many cases far more efficiently and with less corruption and more accountability. Moreover, the United States would have a supreme advantage over these smaller states in Europe, Latin American and the Asian Pacific Rim in that our competing states would still share the same language, legal system, national defense, and all of its citizens and commerce could travel unrestricted from state to state.

Indeed, the only change would be to transfer economic management of responsibilities to the individual states that all rational, objective and independent thinking citizens recognized that our large and unresponsive Federal government has failed to deliver with any measure of financial responsibility.

Moreover, if a citizen does not trust or appreciate the level of government services provided, it is far easier to move across state lines than to move to another nation. Indeed, the Federal government would insure that commerce and labor could travel unrestricted across state lines (commerce clause).

In sum, it is manifestly absurd and delusional to think that 50 states competing for the favors of the citizenry would be less responsive and accountable than a single massive coercive central government monopoly in Washington.



This is laughable and hypocritical coming from a forum that is universally dominated by leftwing dogma while I am generally the only conservative-libertarian arguing for a particular point of view.

In sum, I am the lone conservative voice within a leftwing echo chamber, and yet amusingly, I am called intolerant?!!



This is really an indictment on the absurdity of voting in Presidential elections when your vote is worth 1/120,000,000 and to make matters worse, it is for the lesser of two evils.

Indeed, if power was transferred to the states, your vote would be demonstrably more valuable since it would be among far less competitors. Moreover, it is far easier for a third party candidate or party to make inroads within a targeted state then in a national election. Hence, a transfer of economic power to the states would lend itself to a more responsive and dynamic political competition that would make it easier for third party candidates to leverage an advantage in a couple states with electorates favorable to their policies. Moreover, your vote, while still hardly a determining factor, would still account for more weight than national elections where it is virtually useless, particularly in the 80% of the states that represent non-battleground states.



Wrong, when taxes go to the federal government the benefits are dispersed among 310 million citizens among a land mass that is demonstrably larger than any single state. In contrast, taxpayers at the state level are far more likely to directly benefit from tax expenditures for obvious reasons.



Of course, the opposite is true. When the federal government oversees redistribution of trillions of dollars in tax and regulatory policy -- it invites the kind of corruption that rots and destroys nations from the inside out in a mountain of corruption and cronyism. Indeed, by removing the money from the federal government -- it can more effectively accomplish its primary beneficial responsibility of protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts.

To use an analogy, the federal government is the preeminent 'referee' in the economy in particular and society in general -- however when this referee enters the game as a profit-seeking 'player' -- then its ability to make accurate and fair calls is severely and irreparably compromised to the detriment of society.

If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?


Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.
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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:05 pm

Terraius wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?


Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.

So you're saying municipalities don't govern best, and therefore the government that governs closest to the people doesn't always govern best.
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Postby Obamacult » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:13 pm

Terraius wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?


Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.



Your personal opinion, while greatly appreciated, is not considered valid or reliable scientific evidence.

Moreover, the following list is of the nation-states with the highest GDP per capita. Indeed, these are the societies that afford their citizens the best standards of living on the planet.

It appears to debunk your unsupported opinion, as most of these nation-states are tiny compared to the large central government that you fawn over that is required to managebankrupt society:

Listed in order by GDP (PPP) per capita

Qatar = 1.7 million
Liechtenstein = 36,000
Luxembourg = 500,000
Bermuda = 64,000
Monaco = 50,000
Singapore = 5.3 million
Jersey = 97,000
Falkland Is. = 2,500
Norway = 5.0 million
Brunei = 400,000
Hong Kong = 7.0 million
United States (1st large state listed ) = 310 million
UAE =8,264,070
Guernsey =62,431
Switzerland =8,014,000
Cayman Is. =55,456
Gibaltar =29,752
Netherlands =16,775,273
Kuwait = 3,582,054
Austria =8,458,023
Australia =22,894,306
Ireland=4,588,252
Sweden=9,551,781
Canada =35,002,447
Iceland=320,060
Germany (2nd large state listed) = 81 million

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Obamacult
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Postby Obamacult » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:15 pm

Terraius wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?


Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.



Who said anything about anarchy dude?

Read my posts before shooting off with nonsensical comments that have nothing to do with my assertions.

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Postby Frisivisia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:17 pm

Obamacult wrote:
Terraius wrote:
Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.



Your personal opinion, while greatly appreciated, is not considered valid or reliable scientific evidence.

Moreover, the following list is of the nation-states with the highest GDP per capita. Indeed, these are the societies that afford their citizens the best standards of living on the planet.

It appears to debunk your unsupported opinion, as most of these nation-states are tiny compared to the large central government that you fawn over that is required to managebankrupt society:

Listed in order by GDP (PPP) per capita

Qatar = 1.7 million
Liechtenstein = 36,000
Luxembourg = 500,000
Bermuda = 64,000
Monaco = 50,000
Singapore = 5.3 million
Jersey = 97,000
Falkland Is. = 2,500
Norway = 5.0 million
Brunei = 400,000
Hong Kong = 7.0 million
United States (1st large state listed ) = 310 million
UAE =8,264,070
Guernsey =62,431
Switzerland =8,014,000
Cayman Is. =55,456
Gibaltar =29,752
Netherlands =16,775,273
Kuwait = 3,582,054
Austria =8,458,023
Australia =22,894,306
Ireland=4,588,252
Sweden=9,551,781
Canada =35,002,447
Iceland=320,060
Germany (2nd large state listed) = 81 million

Provide a source, plz, and if you look at your own damn list, you'd see that among the highest are places with effective government.

Oh, and you're arguing a straw man if you assume that I "fawn over" large federal governments.
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Postby Magnus Portucale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:17 pm

Both Parties are bad .

USA need a better option and that Americans can't find on Democrats/Republicans .
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:18 pm

Magnus Portucale wrote:Both Parties are bad .

USA need a better option and that Americans can't find on Democrats/Republicans .

Suggest one.
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Postby TomKirk » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:23 pm

Obamacult wrote:Moreover, the following list is of the nation-states with the highest GDP per capita.

Most of them are not nation-states at all, and many of those which are technically counted as independent nation-states (Liechtenstein etc.) are actually dependent on others to perform the major functions of government for them (they are incapable of managing their own currencies or defending themselves etc.)
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Postby Magnus Portucale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:24 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Magnus Portucale wrote:Both Parties are bad .

USA need a better option and that Americans can't find on Democrats/Republicans .

Suggest one.


Green Party .
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Postby Wamitoria » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:28 pm

Magnus Portucale wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Suggest one.


Green Party .

I would consider them if they didn't have a rather vocal primitivist wing.
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Postby Frisivisia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:29 pm

Magnus Portucale wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Suggest one.


Green Party .

Vote incinerator.
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Re: Are Republicans holding the US back?

Postby Alien Space Bats » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:29 pm

Obamacult wrote:Let me make this extremely easy for you -- both societies are the same in every respect -- except one society has extreme inequality with no poverty and the other society has extreme equality with 10% poverty.

And it is noteworthy that you cannot/will not answer this simple challenge.

IMHO the progressive/socialist/Marxist ideology is faulty for many reasons -- not in the least its immoral use of enforcing its redistributive plunder and crony capitalism at the point of a gun. The ideology is fatally flawed in that it is grounded in jealousy and envy -- for example, it seeks to destroy the wealth of the rich, not to enhance the poor, but to bring the different 'classes' closer together in their misery.

And again, it is noteworthy that you cannot/will not answer this simple challenge, but I expected as much because most progressive realized that the dogma of equality over prosperity is irrational. Indeed, it is faith-based, not much different than Islamist dogma that rejects science for faith. Similarly, progressives reject economic facts, logic and empirical science for egalitarianism.

Hence, the ideologues who support this system would prefer poverty for some citizens in order to reduce the wealth of the rich and insure a more equal, if less prosperous, society.

Indeed, trotslyvania challenged me to provide proof that progressives place greater emphasis on egalitarianism over prosperity -- so I issued this challenge which has yet to be met by any self-described Marxist, progressive, socialist, etc.

Amusing and noteworthy to say the least.

Again, you fail — only this time, harder.

Clearly, this "test" you are trying to make cannot be about Marxism, because you now specify that the two societies are the same in every other respect. We cannot, therefore, be choosing between economic freedom and economic slavery, because (where both societies are collectivist) the first society could an example of a highly successful centrally-planned economy that has merely left 99% of its assets in the hands of a "vanguard" of individuals who manage them collectively on its behalf — subsequently redistributing the proceeds as needed to everybody else — or (where both societies are capitalist) the second society is an infant market economy which hasn't yet achieved takeoff.

More importantly, though, you continue to dodge the essential question: Do the top 1% in either society have the potential ability use their wealth and position to enslave the remaining 99%?

That question is essential because if — and only if — it can be answered in the affirmative, then the second society is clearly the better one, in so far as the top 1% are far less likely to be able to succeed at such a plan if the rest of society has 49 times the resources they do, as opposed to the top 1% in the first society having 99 times the potential resources available to execute a plan of repression than do the bottom 1%. If, on the other hand, there exists no potential for the abuse of wealth to result in the enslavement of those of more modest means by the wealthiest members of their society, then yes: The first society is better, in so far as its superior wealth allows it to eliminate human suffering.

Think of it this way: Wealth can buy anything. It can buy necessities and it can buy luxuries; it can even buy garish absurdities. But wealth can also buy weapons and people to use them; it can buy lawyers to intimidate and silence ones foes; it can buy silence and it can buy murder. In a society where 99% of the wealth is possessed by just 1% of the populace, there exists tremendous temptation for the 1% to use their wealth to silence the 99% and govern unilaterally.

Nor can you fall back on the notion that this might not be a bad thing, in so far as the 1% still have a comfortable material existence; they still have enough to remain above poverty. There is no guarantee that — once enslaved — their former neighbors turned masters will leave them in such comfort. Perhaps they could be more easily ruled if they were a little hungrier; perhaps the threat of real poverty might be a good way to keep the inevitable dissidents among them in line and encourage collaboration in their continued slavery by the less idealistic; every oppressive society needs rewards and punishments to keep the system running. Or maybe a little poverty — or the treat of it — could be used to force the downtrodden masses to surrender their pride and serve their betters as worshipers, prostitutes, gladiators, or human prey in hunts for the idle rich. Lord Acton asserted that power corrupts, after all - and in many ways the Go'auld were always just a metaphor.

In contrast, the poor egalitarian hardscrabble society might not be all that bad a place; the fact that 99% live on the edge of poverty might well encourage them to work together to help lift up the 10% who are least fortunate; indeed, even the top 1%, being not much better off than anybody else, might still have enough humility to pitch in and help make things better for everyone. It seems far less likely to fall into tyranny and far more likely to guarantee everybody some measure of freedom in all things and some kind of say in society's governance, as each man and woman in it might well look at the humblest among them and say to themselves, "But for the grace of God, that could be me." As hard a life as it might present, It seems unlikely that it would not have hope.

This is why your question cannot be answered. Even if we assume all other things are equal, we do no not enough about those other things to make a judgement.
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Anoniman
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Postby Anoniman » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:32 pm

We cannot blame just one party. I don't care if you are republican or democrtic, most politions are corrupt and are guided by money, not the well-being of America. Congress, the House, the President, all corrupt, just like the justice system. I consider myself a Republican, but recently, I hate all Repubicans who run for president or the ones who make the news.


Now for my really personal opinion: Democrats, espically our 'president', want a fascist America, and they are happy right now because they are achieving their goal, little by little. Republicans are homophobic, bible-humping pricks. Now keep in mind, I consider myself Republican, I just don't like where this party is going. No party right now is correct! Corruption everywhere! America is being guided by the highest payer. Our entire government is holding the U.S. back! Time for a new governemnt. Personally, I see a second revolution coming up.

I can defend everything I just stated. I'm not just some dumb white guy who hate Obama like most people see anyone who opposes Obama. I know what goes on, I follow everyrhing. I have reasons to belive he's a fascist.

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Postby Magnus Portucale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Magnus Portucale wrote:
Green Party .

Vote incinerator.

Why ?
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Wamitoria wrote:
Magnus Portucale wrote:
Green Party .

I would consider them if they didn't have a rather vocal primitivist wing.

Yes. A collection of fringe environmentalists who think the Democrats are doing it wrong.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Magnus Portucale wrote:
Green Party .

Vote incinerator.

Compost 2016!
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Postby Magnus Portucale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:33 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Wamitoria wrote:I would consider them if they didn't have a rather vocal primitivist wing.

Yes. A collection of fringe environmentalists who think the Democrats are doing it wrong.


The only Social Democratic party that you have in the USA.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:33 pm

Anoniman wrote:We cannot blame just one party. I don't care if you are republican or democrtic, most politions are corrupt and are guided by money, not the well-being of America. Congress, the House, the President, all corrupt, just like the justice system. I consider myself a Republican, but recently, I hate all Repubicans who run for president or the ones who make the news.


Now for my really personal opinion: Democrats, espically our 'president', want a fascist America, and they are happy right now because they are achieving their goal, little by little. Republicans are homophobic, bible-humping pricks. Now keep in mind, I consider myself Republican, I just don't like where this party is going. No party right now is correct! Corruption everywhere! America is being guided by the highest payer. Our entire government is holding the U.S. back! Time for a new governemnt. Personally, I see a second revolution coming up.

I can defend everything I just stated. I'm not just some dumb white guy who hate Obama like most people see anyone who opposes Obama. I know what goes on, I follow everyrhing. I have reasons to belive he's a fascist.

Get busy defending it.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:34 pm

Magnus Portucale wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yes. A collection of fringe environmentalists who think the Democrats are doing it wrong.


The only Social Democratic party that you have in the USA.

Again, all the good ideas they stand for are supported by the Democrats. The Greens have no base and no chance of getting anyone elected to anything above dog-catcher.
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Postby Terraius » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:35 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Terraius wrote:
Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.

So you're saying municipalities don't govern best, and therefore the government that governs closest to the people doesn't always govern best.


Im saying that a nation of nearly 400 million people trying to operate with thousands of independent municipalities is impractical.

Obamacult wrote:
Terraius wrote:
Because Anarchy/Autarchy breeds totalitarianism, which is a worse alternative then what we have now.

Municipalism (for lack of a better term) wouldn't work either, our society has simply grown too large and complex for that to succeed. If it couldnt work in the days of the ancient Roman Republic I doubt it could work now.



Your personal opinion, while greatly appreciated, is not considered valid or reliable scientific evidence.

Moreover, the following list is of the nation-states with the highest GDP per capita. Indeed, these are the societies that afford their citizens the best standards of living on the planet.

It appears to debunk your unsupported opinion, as most of these nation-states are tiny compared to the large central government that you fawn over that is required to managebankrupt society:

Listed in order by GDP (PPP) per capita

Qatar = 1.7 million
Liechtenstein = 36,000
Luxembourg = 500,000
Bermuda = 64,000
Monaco = 50,000
Singapore = 5.3 million
Jersey = 97,000
Falkland Is. = 2,500
Norway = 5.0 million
Brunei = 400,000
Hong Kong = 7.0 million
United States (1st large state listed ) = 310 million
UAE =8,264,070
Guernsey =62,431
Switzerland =8,014,000
Cayman Is. =55,456
Gibaltar =29,752
Netherlands =16,775,273
Kuwait = 3,582,054
Austria =8,458,023
Australia =22,894,306
Ireland=4,588,252
Sweden=9,551,781
Canada =35,002,447
Iceland=320,060
Germany (2nd large state listed) = 81 million


Your arrogant remark in assuming that your sole opinion is superior to everyone else's here, while appreciated, is not considered valid or reliable scientific evidence.

And thank you for supporting my argument, as I made it clear that I was speaking in regards to the United States, a complex, modern, technologically and culturally advanced society with a population ranging from 10 to 100 percent greater than the nations you listed.

I also find it rather ironic that three out of five of the top nations you listed (Being namely Qatar, Bermuda, and Monaco) sport some of the lowest ratings for human and civil rights, as well as a greater disproportion of wealth than anything the United States has seen, ever. And the fact that two of those nations rely on near-slave labor to maintain their economies.
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Obamacult
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Postby Obamacult » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:37 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Obamacult wrote:The central government is holding back America. Both parties are responsible.

Indeed, our government was never designed to do much of anything except provide for the national defense and intentionally decentralize, balance, limit and make transparent the elements of coercion in society in order to forestall the emergence of absolutism.

Moreover, the citizenry could watch the political warfare with amusement knowing that whoever gained temporary ascendancy would not matter much to the average citizen since the federal government did not have the power to interfere excessively in the private lives of the citizenry.

And this system of Constitutional Federal Republicanism has been very effective at promoting and protecting civil and political rights over the ages.

However, all this begin to change when statists discovered that our system did not provide sufficient protections against economic coercion from politicians and their cronies bearing preferential tax and regulatory favors for special interest votes and bribes. When the government began to slowly intrude into the private lives of individuals and enterprises by mismanaging and bankrupting retirement, finance, transportation, health care, education, energy, etc. our doom was sealed.

It is necessary to return to founding principles in which the federal govt. did what it was designed to do: protect life, liberty, private property and enforce legal contracts and leave the rest of governing to the individual states.

Indeed, government that governs closest to the people, governs best.

The following is an outline or base blueprint on this change:

This is a typical strawman argument from the peanut gallery because Washington would still be responsible for national defense and insuring unrestricted commerce between the individual states. Hence, the Bill of Rights would remain intact and life, liberty, private property and contracts would still be protected by the Federal government. The only difference is that governance of most economic issues would return to the states or the individual as was the case for over 100 years after the Constitution was ratified in the late 1780's.



The United States government paid over $400,000,000,000 per year on the average to service a debt of over $16,000,000,000,000 over the last four years. Moreover, the average interest payment for the last ten years is over $350,000,000,000 and growing!

If this doesn't expose the peanut gallery argument that 'the debt doesn't matter' as pure deluded and destructive bullshit, then nothing will. To illustrate the opportunity costs of this expenditure (in 2008 dollars), it would pay the salaries of 4,000,000 teachers, 25,000 junior highs, 8000 hospitals (4-8 stories), 100,000 nursing homes, etc.



This pretty much exposes the ridiculous house of cards ideological foundation upon which statism rests. For example, they become apoplectic when faced with a single monopoly within a single industry that can easily be overcome with competition, boycotts, substitution goods, etc. In contrast, statists fawn over the monopoly in Washington that is protected from competition, boycotts, and substitution goods by threat of violence. If you examine the way Washington does business and how it deals with the citizenry -- it is a textbook example of an unyielding, coercive and destructive monopoly that no private sector monopoly has ever or will ever approach in the size and scope of coercion.



Profit informs a free society where capital and labor must be allocated to provide the most benefits based on the preferences of free people and NOT some politician or bureaucrat acting in his own interest. Indeed, firms that make the most profit best satisfy consumer preferences in a free society through voluntary exchanges that always benefit everyone involved in the exchange or the transaction would never have occurred.

Without profit, society has no idea of where to allocate scarce resources. Government cannot efficiently or rationally manage societal resources due to the economic calculation problem outlined below:

Economic Calculation Problem of Command Economies



Indeed, my view is that government in Washington is too big to fail and by breaking up this inefficient and oppressive monopoly control over economic issues. Washington still maintains its role protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts by control of the armed forces, federal law enforcement and legal arbiter of last resort. Moreover if a state went bankrupt, the Feds would treat this the same as any large scale private bankruptcy and assume temporary ownership and restructuring responsibility until the state could get back on its feet.



The debt must be addressed and there is only a few ways this can happen:

1) higher taxes that will cause capital and talent to offshore thereby further eroding the tax base. Indeed, there are some drones who say this isn't a problem despite the fact that Obama mentioned numerous times during the recent campaign that it is A PROBLEM.

2) print money that will debase the currency causing interest rates to rise, inflation that is the cruelest tax of all on the poor, debt payments to rise, loss of confidence in the US government and ultimate capitulation.

3) more borrowing that will cause America's credit worthiness to decline, interest rates to rise, debt to increase, further leading to a series of debilitating economic decision that will ultimately be thrust on the lap of Main Street in significantly reduced growth, decreases in discretionary income and declining living standards.

4) eliminate or reduce promised benefits in social security and health care leading to lower standards of living. Indeed, this is generational theft since young people paying into the system today will never get anything close to what they contribute into the system.



Absurd, the geopolitic has myriad examples of governments smaller than most US states that function very well within societies of small populations. Indeed, the ten least corrupt states (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Singapore, Canada, etc.) all have populations less then many US states. Moreover, many small nations have strong records of economic growth, civil and political rights (Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Norway, etc.)



How anyone can logically conclude that a one-size fits all solution emanating from bureaucrats and politicians in Washington is more accountable and responsive than government from a state capital far closer to the people and more intimate with each states unique problems?

Unfortunately, it is true that many leftwing ideologues think that a bureaucrat or politician thousands of miles removed from society in Washington is better able to decide what a citizen needs or wants than that citizen himself.

This is the very definition of arrogance and tyranny. Nonetheless, I am sure that these leftists can find a state that suits their needs and be comforted in the fact that their state of choice will provide the highest standards of living. Yet we all know that they won't accept this bargain because deep down they fear competition and free choice because it will expose the absurdity and bankruptcy of their ideology.

In contrast, government that governs closest to the people governs best. It is obvious, these politicians will be serving their constituents with money from their district for their district. They know best how to fund and where to fund and what projects to fund. Indeed, every state and community has its own unique problems and strengths that require local experts to address, not some clueless bureaucrat thousands of miles removed from the problem.



This is the typical sentiment of tyrants and their dupes. They reject competition because they know their coercive and destructive schemes would fall like a house of cards if faced with freedom of choice by the citizenry. Indeed, it would be extremely beneficial to have a United States in which the economic services currently mismanaged by the coercive monopoly in Washington was suddenly downsized and broken-up into 50 disparate and competing state enterprises.

We have seen that smaller states can function and manage public goods as efficiently as any large state and in many cases far more efficiently and with less corruption and more accountability. Moreover, the United States would have a supreme advantage over these smaller states in Europe, Latin American and the Asian Pacific Rim in that our competing states would still share the same language, legal system, national defense, and all of its citizens and commerce could travel unrestricted from state to state.

Indeed, the only change would be to transfer economic management of responsibilities to the individual states that all rational, objective and independent thinking citizens recognized that our large and unresponsive Federal government has failed to deliver with any measure of financial responsibility.

Moreover, if a citizen does not trust or appreciate the level of government services provided, it is far easier to move across state lines than to move to another nation. Indeed, the Federal government would insure that commerce and labor could travel unrestricted across state lines (commerce clause).

In sum, it is manifestly absurd and delusional to think that 50 states competing for the favors of the citizenry would be less responsive and accountable than a single massive coercive central government monopoly in Washington.



This is laughable and hypocritical coming from a forum that is universally dominated by leftwing dogma while I am generally the only conservative-libertarian arguing for a particular point of view.

In sum, I am the lone conservative voice within a leftwing echo chamber, and yet amusingly, I am called intolerant?!!



This is really an indictment on the absurdity of voting in Presidential elections when your vote is worth 1/120,000,000 and to make matters worse, it is for the lesser of two evils.

Indeed, if power was transferred to the states, your vote would be demonstrably more valuable since it would be among far less competitors. Moreover, it is far easier for a third party candidate or party to make inroads within a targeted state then in a national election. Hence, a transfer of economic power to the states would lend itself to a more responsive and dynamic political competition that would make it easier for third party candidates to leverage an advantage in a couple states with electorates favorable to their policies. Moreover, your vote, while still hardly a determining factor, would still account for more weight than national elections where it is virtually useless, particularly in the 80% of the states that represent non-battleground states.



Wrong, when taxes go to the federal government the benefits are dispersed among 310 million citizens among a land mass that is demonstrably larger than any single state. In contrast, taxpayers at the state level are far more likely to directly benefit from tax expenditures for obvious reasons.



Of course, the opposite is true. When the federal government oversees redistribution of trillions of dollars in tax and regulatory policy -- it invites the kind of corruption that rots and destroys nations from the inside out in a mountain of corruption and cronyism. Indeed, by removing the money from the federal government -- it can more effectively accomplish its primary beneficial responsibility of protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts.

To use an analogy, the federal government is the preeminent 'referee' in the economy in particular and society in general -- however when this referee enters the game as a profit-seeking 'player' -- then its ability to make accurate and fair calls is severely and irreparably compromised to the detriment of society.

If the government that governs closer to the people is best, why States, and not municipalities? Why not abolish government and have everyone self-govern?



Okay champ, here we go:

Most governments are absolutist or in the very least oppressive autocratic governments.

To insure the maximum peace, prosperity, stability and freedom for the individual citizen -- a governing system needs to be implemented that intentionally limits, balances, decentralizes and make transparents the elements of armed force and political power in society.

Hence, our Constitutional Federal Republic which is really a prison to statists who seek to gain power by coercive means. Essentially, this system forces society to deposits the elements of coercion in a common pot and seeks to dispense them to various elements of society (central govt., states, citizens, legislature, executive, courts, etc.) in the hopes that none can emerge with a territorial monopoly or critical mass of armed force and political power.

Note that this system is not designed to mandate government the power to make decisions in the lives of individual citizens or enterprises -- the system in intentionally designed to neuter government, make it less dangerous, not more active.

In contrast, within an anarchist system, there is no intentional limits placed on private military agencies (PMA) or private arbitration firms. Eventually through a process of competition and attrition, a territorial monopoly, or more likely, a coalition will emerge and establish territorial hegemony over the citizenry in its domain. Unless, you discount the adage, 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Indeed, within an anarcho-capitalist society, the PMA that is best managed will emerge as the eventual regional hegemon.

This eventuality need not occur within a COnstitutional federal REpublic if the system has been tweak enough to prevent a hegemon from emerging. Unfortunately, our founding fathers did not foresee the fissures in the prison that statists have exploited to break free of this Constitutional prison for autocratic government. Statists have discovered that economic coercion is the surest path to power, privledge and eventually absolutism.

Hence, like any virus that develops an immunity to vaccine -- our Constitutional Federal Republic requires a new refined vaccine because the statist virus has mutated from a political and civil threat to freedoms into an economic threat to freedom.

My solution is to begin with the following:


Fallacy #1 -- empowering the individual states to manage health care, education, retirement, transportation, etc. is a return to the Articles of Confederation


This is a typical strawman argument from the peanut gallery because Washington would still be responsible for national defense and insuring unrestricted commerce between the individual states. Hence, the Bill of Rights would remain intact and life, liberty, private property and contracts would still be protected by the Federal government. The only difference is that governance of most economic issues would return to the states or the individual as was the case for over 100 years after the Constitution was ratified in the late 1780's.

Fallacy #2 -- The Federal government is doing just fine managing health care and retirement.


The United States government paid over $400,000,000,000 per year on the average to service a debt of over $16,000,000,000,000 over the last four years. Moreover, the average interest payment for the last ten years is over $350,000,000,000 and growing!

If this doesn't expose the peanut gallery argument that 'the debt doesn't matter' as pure deluded and destructive bullshit, then nothing will. To illustrate the opportunity costs of this expenditure (in 2008 dollars), it would pay the salaries of 4,000,000 teachers, 25,000 junior highs, 8000 hospitals (4-8 stories), 100,000 nursing homes, etc.

Fallacy #3 -- It is incredibly bad to have a short-lived private sector monopoly within a single industry, but the Mother of All Monopolies represented by a leviathan government that lords over virtually all commerce with unchallenged monopolistic tax and regulatory policy is hunky dory?!!


This pretty much exposes the ridiculous house of cards ideological foundation upon which statism rests. For example, they become apoplectic when faced with a single monopoly within a single industry that can easily be overcome with competition, boycotts, substitution goods, etc. In contrast, statists fawn over the monopoly in Washington that is protected from competition, boycotts, and substitution goods by threat of violence. If you examine the way Washington does business and how it deals with the citizenry -- it is a textbook example of an unyielding, coercive and destructive monopoly that no private sector monopoly has ever or will ever approach in the size and scope of coercion.

Fallacy #4 -- Profit is bad.


Profit informs a free society where capital and labor must be allocated to provide the most benefits based on the preferences of free people and NOT some politician or bureaucrat acting in his own interest. Indeed, firms that make the most profit best satisfy consumer preferences in a free society through voluntary exchanges that always benefit everyone involved in the exchange or the transaction would never have occurred.

Without profit, society has no idea of where to allocate scarce resources. Government cannot efficiently or rationally manage societal resources due to the economic calculation problem outlined below:

Economic Calculation Problem of Command Economies

Fallacy #5 -- Statists say we should downsize banks so they are not too big to fail, but a huge monopolistic government in Washington that borrows 40 cents on every dollar and is paying interest on debt of over 100% of GDP and growing is fine the way it is??!!


Indeed, my view is that government in Washington is too big to fail and by breaking up this inefficient and oppressive monopoly control over economic issues. Washington still maintains its role protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts by control of the armed forces, federal law enforcement and legal arbiter of last resort. Moreover if a state went bankrupt, the Feds would treat this the same as any large scale private bankruptcy and assume temporary ownership and restructuring responsibility until the state could get back on its feet.

Fallacy #6 -- The debt doesn't matter because who owe it to ourselves or it won't effect us ?!!


The debt must be addressed and there is only a few ways this can happen:

1) higher taxes that will cause capital and talent to offshore thereby further eroding the tax base. Indeed, there are some drones who say this isn't a problem despite the fact that Obama mentioned numerous times during the recent campaign that it is A PROBLEM.

2) print money that will debase the currency causing interest rates to rise, inflation that is the cruelest tax of all on the poor, debt payments to rise, loss of confidence in the US government and ultimate capitulation.

3) more borrowing that will cause America's credit worthiness to decline, interest rates to rise, debt to increase, further leading to a series of debilitating economic decision that will ultimately be thrust on the lap of Main Street in significantly reduced growth, decreases in discretionary income and declining living standards.

4) eliminate or reduce promised benefits in social security and health care leading to lower standards of living. Indeed, this is generational theft since young people paying into the system today will never get anything close to what they contribute into the system.

Fallacy #7 -- Smaller populations and smaller states have less efficient governments ???!!


Absurd, the geopolitic has myriad examples of governments smaller than most US states that function very well within societies of small populations. Indeed, the ten least corrupt states (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Singapore, Canada, etc.) all have populations less then many US states. Moreover, many small nations have strong records of economic growth, civil and political rights (Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Norway, etc.)

Fallacy #8 -- Government that governs closest to the people is NOT the best governance ??!!


How anyone can logically conclude that a one-size fits all solution emanating from bureaucrats and politicians in Washington is more accountable and responsive than government from a state capital far closer to the people and more intimate with each states unique problems?

Unfortunately, it is true that many leftwing ideologues think that a bureaucrat or politician thousands of miles removed from society in Washington is better able to decide what a citizen needs or wants than that citizen himself.

This is the very definition of arrogance and tyranny. Nonetheless, I am sure that these leftists can find a state that suits their needs and be comforted in the fact that their state of choice will provide the highest standards of living. Yet we all know that they won't accept this bargain because deep down they fear competition and free choice because it will expose the absurdity and bankruptcy of their ideology.

In contrast, government that governs closest to the people governs best. It is obvious, these politicians will be serving their constituents with money from their district for their district. They know best how to fund and where to fund and what projects to fund. Indeed, every state and community has its own unique problems and strengths that require local experts to address, not some clueless bureaucrat thousands of miles removed from the problem.

Fallacy #9 -- Choice and competition are not beneficial??!!


This is the typical sentiment of tyrants and their dupes. They reject competition because they know their coercive and destructive schemes would fall like a house of cards if faced with freedom of choice by the citizenry. Indeed, it would be extremely beneficial to have a United States in which the economic services currently mismanaged by the coercive monopoly in Washington was suddenly downsized and broken-up into 50 disparate and competing state enterprises.

We have seen that smaller states can function and manage public goods as efficiently as any large state and in many cases far more efficiently and with less corruption and more accountability. Moreover, the United States would have a supreme advantage over these smaller states in Europe, Latin American and the Asian Pacific Rim in that our competing states would still share the same language, legal system, national defense, and all of its citizens and commerce could travel unrestricted from state to state.

Indeed, the only change would be to transfer economic management of responsibilities to the individual states that all rational, objective and independent thinking citizens recognized that our large and unresponsive Federal government has failed to deliver with any measure of financial responsibility.

Moreover, if a citizen does not trust or appreciate the level of government services provided, it is far easier to move across state lines than to move to another nation. Indeed, the Federal government would insure that commerce and labor could travel unrestricted across state lines (commerce clause).

In sum, it is manifestly absurd and delusional to think that 50 states competing for the favors of the citizenry would be less responsive and accountable than a single massive coercive central government monopoly in Washington.

Fallacy #10 -- Obamacult is a intolerant and rigid ideologue.


This is laughable and hypocritical coming from a forum that is universally dominated by leftwing dogma while I am generally the only conservative-libertarian arguing for a particular point of view.

In sum, I am the lone conservative voice within a leftwing echo chamber, and yet amusingly, I am called intolerant?!!

Fallacy # 11 -- My vote during Federal elections matters.


This is really an indictment on the absurdity of voting in Presidential elections when your vote is worth 1/120,000,000 and to make matters worse, it is for the lesser of two evils.

Indeed, if power was transferred to the states, your vote would be demonstrably more valuable since it would be among far less competitors. Moreover, it is far easier for a third party candidate or party to make inroads within a targeted state then in a national election. Hence, a transfer of economic power to the states would lend itself to a more responsive and dynamic political competition that would make it easier for third party candidates to leverage an advantage in a couple states with electorates favorable to their policies. Moreover, your vote, while still hardly a determining factor, would still account for more weight than national elections where it is virtually useless, particularly in the 80% of the states that represent non-battleground states.

Fallacy #12 -- I benefit more when the federal government spends my taxes.


Wrong, when taxes go to the federal government the benefits are dispersed among 310 million citizens among a land mass that is demonstrably larger than any single state. In contrast, taxpayers at the state level are far more likely to directly benefit from tax expenditures for obvious reasons.

Fallacy #13 -- The federal government can more effectively and impartially promote and preserve civil and political rights while managing myriad economic responsibilities at the same time.


Of course, the opposite is true. When the federal government oversees redistribution of trillions of dollars in tax and regulatory policy -- it invites the kind of corruption that rots and destroys nations from the inside out in a mountain of corruption and cronyism. Indeed, by removing the money from the federal government -- it can more effectively accomplish its primary beneficial responsibility of protecting life, liberty, private property and enforcing contracts.

To use an analogy, the federal government is the preeminent 'referee' in the economy in particular and society in general -- however when this referee enters the game as a profit-seeking 'player' -- then its ability to make accurate and fair calls is severely and irreparably compromised to the detriment of society.

User avatar
Frisivisia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18164
Founded: Aug 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Frisivisia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Terraius wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:So you're saying municipalities don't govern best, and therefore the government that governs closest to the people doesn't always govern best.


Im saying that a nation of nearly 400 million people trying to operate with thousands of independent municipalities is impractical.


And I'm saying that if you believe that government governs better when it's closer to the people, you don't need a nation, just self-governance, which is the closest to the people.
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