Your opinion of transgender people

[Bricoleurs]

At least you and I agree there. I think the government should get out of the business of gender entirely and let people write in their own...

It should stop interfering with the people's civil rights as a whole.

It should be guaranteeing our civil rights, not limiting them. Which means careful custodianship. And requires a robust set of protections and continual proactive action on the part of legislators.

[Uryto]

Persecution of all transgender persons.

[Souseiseki]

Persecution of all transgender persons.

god i hope you made the "general is OOC" mistake

[Roan Cara]

meh. people are people, doesn't really matter what physical or emotional/mental gender a person is... I judge on a case by case basis. My aunt is a transgendered person who was born male and is now physically female... she is still the same person I have always known and loved but now she is less depressed and we talk more. It was odd for me at first, but I am sure it was much much harder for her. I love and admire her... That said, some of her friends in the same situation come across as whining self absorbed narcissistic bitches...

[Souseiseki]

Necessary in what way?

I think this whole gender confusion thing could be better solved with medication than surgery.

"WPATH standards of care posted:
“Sex reassignment is not “experimental”, “investigative”, “elective”, “cosmetic”, or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID.”

Pfallin, 1993 posted:
“In over 80 qualitatively different case studies and reviews from 12 countries, it has been demonstrated during the last 30 years that the treatment that includes the whole process of gender reassignment is effective.”

GIRES (2006) "Atypical gender development - A review" posted:
“The hormonal, surgical and psychological procedures of transition reduce the dissonance between the psychological identification as male or female, on the one hand, and the phenotype and associated gender role on the other. Such
treatments are regarded as highly successful.”

Lawrence, 2002 posted:
2002 Lawrence study of MtF patients gives 3% of 232 participants giving quality of life after SRS as either “unchanged” or “worsened” - Only 1 participant responded with “worsened”, 7 with “unchanged”. “No participants reported consistent Regret"

Lawrence, 2002 "Factors associated with satisfaction or regret following male-to-female SRS" posted:
“Even patients who develop severe surgical complications seldom regret having undergone surgery. The importance of surgery can be appreciated by the repeated finding that quality of surgical results is one of the best predictors of the overall outcome of sex reassignment”

In short, this is seen as one of the most effective treatment for trans people and it literally saves lives. I also have a lot of data on the increased risk of suicidality of trans people who are not allowed access to treatment, and data on how GID is an isolated diagnosis - It is not a sign of delusions or other severe mental illness. Cole et al (1997) study into co-morbidity will provide this data, if you want to take a look."

still shamelessly stolen from noreaus

posting again: unspoilered edition

[Condunum]

Persecution of all transgender persons.

0/10

[Hathradic States]

It should stop interfering with the people's civil rights as a whole.

It should be guaranteeing our civil rights, not limiting them. Which means careful custodianship. And requires a robust set of protections and continual proactive action on the part of legislators.

This is where we digress. Legislators should regulate inter-state corporations, but not smaller business in order to guarantee rights, nor should it step on the rights of the state.

[Grenartia]

Its not cosmetic. Its medically necessary.

1. Necessary in what way? What if I wanted a penis enlargement because I always felt that I should have a 14-incher? Should society pay for it? What if I say in really convincing terms that my identity was totally dependent on having a large penis, and everyone (especially women) would benefit from the procedure? Because you know, I'm a guy with a 14-incher trapped in a guy with a 12-incher's body.

2. I think this whole gender confusion thing could be better solved with medication than surgery. Like I said before, go ahead and do it if you really want, but if you're asking me to pay for it then you're inviting me to comment on it. You cannot ask for equality and a handout in the same breath, because then you will get neither.

1. Necessary to prevent suicidal depression.

2. Where did you get your medical/psychological degree? And what medication would you recommend?

One, what the fuck is with the * at the end of trans?


Two, you are what you are physically, thinking you should be something else is inbetween weakness and attention mongering.

1. Its a catchall.

2. Not really. Unless you're going to honestly tell me that if I took your consciousness and put it into a woman's body, you would then identify as a woman.

The last thread got locked due to trolling (hint: try to be respectful in this thread, folks), but Tsar has allowed a successor thread.

So, NSG, are you supportive of trans* people? Do you recognize only two genders? Are you trans*?

I am supportive of all people's right to be happy, healthy, and feel recognized and valued for who they are. So yes, I support trans people.

And gender, being a cultural construction that is simply how we "name" ourselves, is as varied as we want it to be. In a global world where we should be inclusive of all people's identities, folks should be able to choose how they identify and what people call them.

I was assigned male at birth, and I identify as a masculine genderqueer person. While I "pass" as a cisgender man because of my style, I don't feel like one and I don't really feel the inclination to prove or demonstrate a male identity. I appreciate and value my feminine traits, and I believe that I am a stronger person for being raised by a family of strong women.

As an androgynous person who is closeted IRL (and therefore rather obliged to present myself as a cisgendered man), I understand completely.

Persecution of all transgender persons.

Why?

[Hathradic States]

One, what the fuck is with the * at the end of trans?


Two, you are what you are physically, thinking you should be something else is inbetween weakness and attention mongering.

1. Its a catchall.

2. Not really. Unless you're going to honestly tell me that if I took your consciousness and put it into a woman's body, you would then identify as a woman.

1. Had that explained, but thanks again.

2. I wouldn't have a choice. I would be a lesbian woman and I would so rock that shit.

[Grenartia]

1. Its a catchall.

2. Not really. Unless you're going to honestly tell me that if I took your consciousness and put it into a woman's body, you would then identify as a woman.

1. Had that explained, but thanks again.

2. I wouldn't have a choice. I would be a lesbian woman and I would so rock that shit.

1. No problem.

2. I, personally find it hard to believe. Although I think you'd be the best lesbian ever.

[Hathradic States]

1. Had that explained, but thanks again.

2. I wouldn't have a choice. I would be a lesbian woman and I would so rock that shit.

1. No problem.

2. I, personally find it hard to believe. Although I think you'd be the best lesbian ever.

2. Yeah, well, life gives you lemons, make grape juice. I wouldn't like it, but I'd roll with it. it's what I've done all my life, and that would be no different.

[Souseiseki]

1. No problem.

2. I, personally find it hard to believe. Although I think you'd be the best lesbian ever.

2. Yeah, well, life gives you lemons, make grape juice. I wouldn't like it, but I'd roll with it. it's what I've done all my life, and that would be no different.

you know it's wrong and you wouldn't like it but you'd make no attempt to do anything about it because...?

[Republic of Neighpal]

I don't have a problem with transsexuals. if they wanna cross over, it's their own damn choice. not the choice of "morally superior" AKA "douchebags" with want to butt in on everyone else's lives.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I find the whole transgender thing very odd, but people still have a right to it if they feel the need.

[Hathradic States]

2. Yeah, well, life gives you lemons, make grape juice. I wouldn't like it, but I'd roll with it. it's what I've done all my life, and that would be no different.

you know it's wrong and you wouldn't like it but you'd make no attempt to do anything about it because...?

It goes against my personal code of honour. If I were to be a woman all of a sudden, there would be a reason, and therefore I must stay that way.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Other people being transgender and wanting to "cross over" should be well down the list of people's problems. A person's sexuality is about as relevant to their character as the colour of their underwear.

[Anarcho-Leftist States of Horseflip]

I'll put my mitt into this cage of monkeys before I hit the hay, if for nothing else than to have some entertainment tomorrow.

Firstly, I'd like to state I'm pretty against the ideals of the trans camp, but I'm not necessarily against the people. Transexuals are arguing against their physical matter, something that just seems a bit hard to stand behind. A homosexual decides he or she is homosexual by stating "I am born with these characteristics and I favor people with these characteristics." Transexuals argue "I have these characteristics, but they're the wrong ones." I'm sure it can vary from case to case (and hermaphrodites or other such material mix-ups definitely make up a good deal of these cases, along with people assigned a sex in the womb artificially), but I'm not much stirred to bring huge cultural or legal shifts to defend these ideals. I'm not much for hacking up one's body or using drugs to give oneself shaplier hips either, though I'm also not the biggest fan of non-essential plastic surgery either from a personal standpoint. If you feel like x, act like x. Placing importance on the matter necessary to be x either implies that the matter itself is what makes the gender, at which point you should remain yourself, or, if the matter is of no importance like the transgender camp says then why go about creating a body for yourself when the mind is all that matters?

I'll leave it to communities to decide what slides in their cultural and legal bounds. So long as you're not using my tax money on surgeries without my consent or pulling insane legal and cultural stunts to further your post-modernist drivvel, I have no problem treating a transgender or "genderqueer" (a term whose exact definition eludes me) person with the respect I'd afford any stranger. It's when the headlines are exploding with stories of discriminatory bathrooms or stories of huge class action lawsuits against companies for not providing a uniform that follows every nit picking detail of their gender identity or when I am preached at as a cisprivileged scum for not swallowing the ideals of people who suckle off the teat of the state to achieve the breasts they feel entitled to that I start biting my thumb at the movement.

[Souseiseki]

I'll put my mitt into this cage of monkeys before I hit the hay, if for nothing else than to have some entertainment tomorrow.

i am glad that you are entertained! good job!

though I'm also not the biggest fan of non-essential plastic surgery either from a personal standpoint.

i can't tell if you just did. if you did just call SRS non-essential plastic surgery please scroll up!

Placing importance on the matter necessary to be x either implies that the matter itself is what makes the gender, at which point you should remain yourself, or, if the matter is of no importance like the transgender camp says then why go about creating a body for yourself when the mind is all that matters?

please imagine you woke up with the opposite set of genitals. (or for extra fun, no genitals.) would you be happy with this development?

It's when the headlines are exploding with stories of discriminatory bathrooms

people can and have been abused/nearly killed/killed over going into the "wrong" bathroom. (which is the wrong bathroom? which will people think is the wrong bathroom? that's part of the fun!) now there's a discriminatory bathroom! needless to say peoples ability to feel safe (and actually be safe) going into a bathroom is rather important.

stories of huge class action lawsuits against companies for not providing a uniform that follows every nit picking detail of their gender identity

when did this happen

[Anarcho-Leftist States of Horseflip]

Ugh, why did I have to be awake to see this? My insomnia aside, let me respond with the pleasantness expected of an orange horse in a hat. SRS is nonessential if it is not a biological threat to the subject in question or perhaps with the old burn victim clause. I'm not going to die if I suddenly get a vagina (despite the feelings bleeding out for a week might give me) and being that males and female sex designations are already mainsteam concepts, having the opposite of your desired traits will not be an impairment on your life chances. If they are, you can bring it up as one of many characteristics already protected in equal opportunity legislation.

As for bathrooms, I'm surprised you so wholeheartedly fling yourself into the idea of the discriminatory bathroom. We base bathrooms off of sexual characteristics, and even then getting killed over it is more an exception than the norm. What, if not basing bathrooms on sexual characteristics, do we base it on? The many different shades of gender? Why should I build 16 different restrooms simply to allow people of a gender show up once a month to use it? I won't argue necessarily in favor of sexually divided bathrooms, as segregating sexes simply because they may see one another's genitals seems a bit arbitrary as it is. Why not simply make bathrooms with nothing but stalls and leave it at that? Regardless, legislating some drastic law on bathrooms simply because someone feels a bit weird using their own sex's bathroom is bordering on pathetic.

As for my other two points, I'm not at all impressed by your appeal to emotion and my lawsuit example was a hypothetical situation I feel seems reasonable given the way these things tend to develop when picked up by a "liberal" party.

[Immoren]

Necessary in what way? What if I wanted a penis enlargement because I always felt that I should have a 14-incher? Should society pay for it? What if I say in really convincing terms that my identity was totally dependent on having a large penis, and everyone (especially women) would benefit from the procedure? Because you know, I'm a guy with a 14-incher trapped in a guy with a 12-incher's body.

Australian Navy pays breast enlargements for its female servicemen to help with possible confidence issues smaller boobs might bring to them IIRC. So cosmetics can be important.

The opposite of transgender; someone whose gender identity is the same as their assigned biological sex at birth.

No it's not, it's a word made up by two Transgender activists.

No really look it up, it's not a scientific term in the slightest. It only appeared in the 90s and is only a term really circulated on the internet.

"Science" does not use the term "Cis"

Basic high school chemistry.

[Souseiseki]

Ugh, why did I have to be awake to see this? My insomnia aside, let me respond with the pleasantness expected of an orange horse in a hat.

I need to go, but I'll be back in a few hours. Could you tell me exactly what you mean by this so I can gauge the appropriate way to respond?

[Anarcho-Leftist States of Horseflip]

Ugh, why did I have to be awake to see this? My insomnia aside, let me respond with the pleasantness expected of an orange horse in a hat.

I need to go, but I'll be back in a few hours. Could you tell me exactly what you mean by this so I can gauge the appropriate way to respond?

I don't very much appreciate stopping reading my dissertation at the first sentence.

[Souseiseki]

I need to go, but I'll be back in a few hours. Could you tell me exactly what you mean by this so I can gauge the appropriate way to respond?

I don't very much appreciate stopping reading my dissertation at the first sentence.

Did you actually read my post? I'd love to respond in detail, and oh trust me I will, but I don't have time to type a proper post. So could you tell me what the first sentence actually means?

If you want comments on your dissertation, rapid-fire Souseiseki style, having uni-sex stalls is a good idea and is often one that is floated, combine the above post pointing out that “Sex reassignment is not “experimental”, “investigative”, “elective”, “cosmetic”, or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID.” among other things and combine this with the significantly increase rate of suicide/attempted suicide to reach the "literally saves lives" conclusion and please keep your getting angry over the headlines to headlines that actually exist.

[Daemyrs]

My exboyfriend is FTM, I didn't realise it until he told me - although he's pre-T/pre-Surgery, and simply thought he was an effeminate male.

He told me how happy that he was that I just accepted him, treated him as male when his mother at times was insensitive to his gender.

I done a lot of reading to try and understand how best to help him, and even now, there isn't anything that I wouldn't do to help him if he asked.

My opinion of Transgender people, if you can't already guess:

I support them. I have several friends, including someone I've adopted as a baby brother, who are FTM. I will stand up and fight - with my bare hands if I have to, against anyone who hurts them.

I also believe that the NHS is right in funding healthcare for them.

I believe in support and all that, that's fair enough. I don't agree with the NHS funding it though. If I believed I was a cat born in a human body should the NHS pay for cosmetic surgery to alter my appearance? No. If the person feels that passionate they should save up the cash, not ask people who don't support their decisions to fund it.

I agree. I don't feel that my taxes should go to someone who's doesn't think they were born with the right set of organs. That's your opinion. So use your money to fix yourself to what you want.

[Anarcho-Leftist States of Horseflip]

I don't very much appreciate stopping reading my dissertation at the first sentence.

Did you actually read my post? I'd love to respond in detail, and oh trust me I will, but I don't have time to type a proper post. So could you tell me what the first sentence actually means?

If you want comments on your dissertation, rapid-fire Souseiseki style, having uni-sex stalls is a good idea and is often one that is floated, combine the above post pointing out that “Sex reassignment is not “experimental”, “investigative”, “elective”, “cosmetic”, or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID.” among other things and combine this with the significantly increase rate of suicide/attempted suicide to reach the "literally saves lives" conclusion and please keep your getting angry over the headlines to headlines that actually exist.

I was making reference to my nation's flag, if you have not yet gathered that. As for SRS as a stopper of suicide and thus necessary to save lives, I must object to your voluminous feels. Pay for the surgery on your own dime if you feel it's so life or death you'll commit suicide over it. It's not the state's job to prevent suicides by throwing money at people's wants. If you disagree with that politically, then our discourse will certainly yield no fruit and we'll simply have to agree to disagree.