Your opinion of transgender people

[The Emerald Dawn]

The last thread got locked due to trolling (hint: try to be respectful in this thread, folks), but Tsar has allowed a successor thread.

So, NSG, are you supportive of trans* people? Do you recognize only two genders? Are you trans*?

As a genderqueer person, I am trans (therefore I am supportive), and by definition, recognize more than two genders.

EDIT: Changed some terminology.

EDIT 2:
Clarification of some terms:
You are cisgender if your gender identity matches your physical sex.
Supportive, in this context, refers to supporting the rights of trans* people to be trans*, to go through transition, etc.

I will be as kind to a Trans* person as I am to any other person, which means that I will be kind to them as long as they don't bring hate on me.

However, first motherfrakker that starts with the "Die Cis Scum" shit is going to discover that a man in a wheelchair is still quite a capable warrior.

[Ostroeuropa]

The last thread got locked due to trolling (hint: try to be respectful in this thread, folks), but Tsar has allowed a successor thread.

So, NSG, are you supportive of trans* people? Do you recognize only two genders? Are you trans*?

As a genderqueer person, I am trans (therefore I am supportive), and by definition, recognize more than two genders.

EDIT: Changed some terminology.

EDIT 2:
Clarification of some terms:
You are cisgender if your gender identity matches your physical sex.
Supportive, in this context, refers to supporting the rights of trans* people to be trans*, to go through transition, etc.

I will be as kind to a Trans* person as I am to any other person, which means that I will be kind to them as long as they don't bring hate on me.

However, first motherfrakker that starts with the "Die Cis Scum" shit is going to discover that a man in a wheelchair is still quite a capable warrior.

Is Cis a term of abuse? Discuss.
*dives into the bomb shelter.*

[The Steel Magnolia]

I will be as kind to a Trans* person as I am to any other person, which means that I will be kind to them as long as they don't bring hate on me.

However, first motherfrakker that starts with the "Die Cis Scum" shit is going to discover that a man in a wheelchair is still quite a capable warrior.

It really doesn't mean what you think it means.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I will be as kind to a Trans* person as I am to any other person, which means that I will be kind to them as long as they don't bring hate on me.

However, first motherfrakker that starts with the "Die Cis Scum" shit is going to discover that a man in a wheelchair is still quite a capable warrior.

It really doesn't mean what you think it means.

All I know is it is irritating to try and explain how these people are quite simply people when in the background Character K is swanning about in goth makeup swinging a placard with "Die Cis Scum" on it.

It doesn't allow for rational conversation.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I will be as kind to a Trans* person as I am to any other person, which means that I will be kind to them as long as they don't bring hate on me.

However, first motherfrakker that starts with the "Die Cis Scum" shit is going to discover that a man in a wheelchair is still quite a capable warrior.

Is Cis a term of abuse? Discuss.
*dives into the bomb shelter.*

No more than "Trans*" is. It's descriptive of the person's orientation.

[Nadkor]

It really doesn't mean what you think it means.

All I know is it is irritating to try and explain how these people are quite simply people when in the background Character K is swanning about in goth makeup swinging a placard with "Die Cis Scum" on it.

It doesn't allow for rational conversation.

What significant number of people are running around saying "die cis scum"?

[The Steel Magnolia]

It really doesn't mean what you think it means.

All I know is it is irritating to try and explain how these people are quite simply people when in the background Character K is swanning about in goth makeup swinging a placard with "Die Cis Scum" on it.

It doesn't allow for rational conversation.

Oh sure there are lots of idiots who take up the advocacy.

But to quote the actual original post:

It’s not ironic. It’s not cute. It is a threat.

How many people are murdered because they are cis? How many people are denied employment, housing, health services, turned away from shelters, refused aid, and are subjected to constant ridicule and abuse because they are cis?

If you are cis, do my tattoo and jacket make you feel uncomfortable? I can only hope so.

Right now, when I see a cis person in public, I worry. I tense and hold my breath and get ready to sprint away. You frighten me. This fear is entirely justified. I’ve already been sent to the hospital for the crime of walking down the sidewalk towards my home while visibly gender variant. I fully expect to be attacked again, severely. (The less severe attacks, the screams and threats and disapproval and hatred and thrust elbows and shoves, these are the givens. These are part of the cost I know I will be forced to pay if I wish to leave my house.)

Die cis scum. It is hostile. It’s aggression, on my part. It is a whisper of personal agency. When the cissexism and transphobia of this culture crush in, overwhelming and unstoppable, these three words are how I push back.

Would that I could push harder.

[Coccygia]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

[The Blaatschapen]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

[The Emerald Dawn]

All I know is it is irritating to try and explain how these people are quite simply people when in the background Character K is swanning about in goth makeup swinging a placard with "Die Cis Scum" on it.

It doesn't allow for rational conversation.

What significant number of people are running around saying "die cis scum"?

I live near Portland, Oregon. You'd be amazed.

All I know is it is irritating to try and explain how these people are quite simply people when in the background Character K is swanning about in goth makeup swinging a placard with "Die Cis Scum" on it.

It doesn't allow for rational conversation.

Oh sure there are lots of idiots who take up the advocacy.

But to quote the actual original post:

It’s not ironic. It’s not cute. It is a threat.

How many people are murdered because they are cis? How many people are denied employment, housing, health services, turned away from shelters, refused aid, and are subjected to constant ridicule and abuse because they are cis?

If you are cis, do my tattoo and jacket make you feel uncomfortable? I can only hope so.

Right now, when I see a cis person in public, I worry. I tense and hold my breath and get ready to sprint away. You frighten me. This fear is entirely justified. I’ve already been sent to the hospital for the crime of walking down the sidewalk towards my home while visibly gender variant. I fully expect to be attacked again, severely. (The less severe attacks, the screams and threats and disapproval and hatred and thrust elbows and shoves, these are the givens. These are part of the cost I know I will be forced to pay if I wish to leave my house.)

Die cis scum. It is hostile. It’s aggression, on my part. It is a whisper of personal agency. When the cissexism and transphobia of this culture crush in, overwhelming and unstoppable, these three words are how I push back.

Would that I could push harder.

Ok, this is coming from someone who's lost legs in a war, so once again please remember that this is my prism of viewing things and not a personal attack on your character or personal identity:

That's pointless aggression.

You cannot solve social issues with violent means, and expect peaceful results. MLK Jr., Gandhi, and more have proven that peaceful protest removes the rubric of escalated response from the hands of the government. There is no faster way to get the world on your side than to sit there peacefully while "Teh Gubmint" bullies, oppresses, and acts against your best interests.

I understand that anger can be empowering, but that's all it is, anger. Anger gets you through the moment, peace gets you through the movement.

If you say things like "Die!" you are standing there giving all the ammunition the "normies" need to respond with aggression. Does it suck? Absolutely. I can't go into certain buildings because they don't have a god damn ramp, I can't get angry with people because I'm a white male, and LORD HELP ME if I lose my cool. We, all of us, have our shit to deal with, some (like Trans* folk) have more of it to deal with than others. It is not fair, it is not right. But I can not condone allowing fear and anger to control progress for this, any more than I can allow fear and anger to control people with the sudden "Islam Rising" paranoia.

It's just not in my character archetype to allow fear and paranoia to win.

[Farnhamia]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

I scored X-triple Y-double X once but the referees said my foot was over the line.

[The Blaatschapen]

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

I scored X-triple Y-double X once but the referees said my foot was over the line.

I suggest using a better Nintendo controller.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

Triple X, XYY, etc.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

There are, more or less, three definitions of sex used in biology: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex.

Genetic sex is the ~chromosomes~ one. In mammals, the Y chromosome normally contains a gene named SRY, which is the main trigger that causes a fetus to begin developing along a male pathway. Occasionally, due to random errors in the process of copying DNA, an SRY gene can fall off a Y chromosome or even jump over to an X chromosome: this is one of the ways you get people with XX chromosomes who develop physically as male, or people with XY chromosomes who develop physically as female. (There are other ways too, related to other genetic or environmental factors.) Now, the thing about genetic sex is that it's not actually used all that often by working biologists outside of the field of molecular genetics -- there's usually no point looking at chromosomes if what you're interested in is anatomy or biochemistry. So chromosomal sex is by no means the final word on whether we call an organism "male" or "female".

Gonadal sex is probably the one that gets used most often by biologists when they're identifying whether the unfortunate little critter they've just dissected is male or female: it's whether an animal has testes, ovaries, or something in between. While we don't yet have the technology to give trans women ovaries or trans men testes, long-term hormone therapy does render the birth gonads mostly non-functional, and of course they can also be surgically removed.

Phenotypic sex is the one that's of most interest to you and me in our daily lives. It refers to the development of sexually dimorphic characteristics, such as genital organs, and facial and body hair. It's mostly influenced by sex hormones, and there's a great deal that modern medicine can do to bring a trans person's sexual characteristics closer to their target sex than their birth sex. Phenotypic sex is just as biologically valid a definition of sex as the other two, and unless you're planning to either perform medical procedures on someone or have kids with them, it's the only one that's likely to have much relevance to you when you interact with other people.

Finally, we humans add an extra layer on top of all this, which we call gender. Gender includes all of the standards that are used in a society to differentiate men from women (and other genders, in cultures or subcultures that recognise more than two genders). Some of the characteristics by which people are categorised into one gender or another are related to phenotypic sex, but others are purely behavioural -- dress, grooming and so on.

So when it comes to how we decide whether to call someone a man or a woman, chromosomes are really a very small part of the story. After all, societies were categorising people into genders long before chromosomes were even discovered, and we easily discern whether people are men or women every day without it even occurring to us to look at their chromosomes first.

Stop being terrible at basic high school biology.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Ok, this is coming from someone who's lost legs in a war, so once again please remember that this is my prism of viewing things and not a personal attack on your character or personal identity:

That's pointless aggression.

You cannot solve social issues with violent means, and expect peaceful results. MLK Jr., Gandhi, and more have proven that peaceful protest removes the rubric of escalated response from the hands of the government. There is no faster way to get the world on your side than to sit there peacefully while "Teh Gubmint" bullies, oppresses, and acts against your best interests.

I understand that anger can be empowering, but that's all it is, anger. Anger gets you through the moment, peace gets you through the movement.

If you say things like "Die!" you are standing there giving all the ammunition the "normies" need to respond with aggression. Does it suck? Absolutely. I can't go into certain buildings because they don't have a god damn ramp, I can't get angry with people because I'm a white male, and LORD HELP ME if I lose my cool. We, all of us, have our shit to deal with, some (like Trans* folk) have more of it to deal with than others. It is not fair, it is not right. But I can not condone allowing fear and anger to control progress for this, any more than I can allow fear and anger to control people with the sudden "Islam Rising" paranoia.

It's just not in my character archetype to allow fear and paranoia to win.

I don't think I necessarily disagree with that at all. Indeed, it's not really my place to. I will say though that there's a lot of mischaracterization towards the whole 'die cis scum' sentiment however, but I do see your points.

[Coccygia]

(oops)

[The Emerald Dawn]

Ok, this is coming from someone who's lost legs in a war, so once again please remember that this is my prism of viewing things and not a personal attack on your character or personal identity:

That's pointless aggression.

You cannot solve social issues with violent means, and expect peaceful results. MLK Jr., Gandhi, and more have proven that peaceful protest removes the rubric of escalated response from the hands of the government. There is no faster way to get the world on your side than to sit there peacefully while "Teh Gubmint" bullies, oppresses, and acts against your best interests.

I understand that anger can be empowering, but that's all it is, anger. Anger gets you through the moment, peace gets you through the movement.

If you say things like "Die!" you are standing there giving all the ammunition the "normies" need to respond with aggression. Does it suck? Absolutely. I can't go into certain buildings because they don't have a god damn ramp, I can't get angry with people because I'm a white male, and LORD HELP ME if I lose my cool. We, all of us, have our shit to deal with, some (like Trans* folk) have more of it to deal with than others. It is not fair, it is not right. But I can not condone allowing fear and anger to control progress for this, any more than I can allow fear and anger to control people with the sudden "Islam Rising" paranoia.

It's just not in my character archetype to allow fear and paranoia to win.

I don't think I necessarily disagree with that at all. I will say though that there's a lot of mischaracterization towards the sentiment.

Stupid quote machine being broken.

I don't doubt that there is. Misunderstandings, unfortunately, rule the day with regards to sex and gender in North America.

[Union of Democratic Socialists]

?

[Coccygia]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

I have indeed but these are pretty rare conditions, and have little relevance overall...just trying to keep to the main point.

[The Steel Magnolia]

?

How helpful.

TED, I also edited my response to you a little bit. Nothing substantive though.

[Union of Democratic Socialists]

?

In chase if anyone asks, this is my opinion.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Haven't you heard about X0, XXY, etc.

I have indeed but these are pretty rare conditions, and have little relevance overall...just trying to keep to the main point.

How about you respond to what I said, mm?

[The Emerald Dawn]

?

How helpful.

TED, I also edited my response to you a little bit. Nothing substantive though.

Dig it. I'm leery of the movement, but as always I listen to people with more knowledge than I.

[Coccygia]

I am "cis". I really don't think "trans" truly exists. You are (unfortunately) stuck with what you got born with, and all your #23 chromosomes say the same. To think otherwise, is, IMHO, fooling yourself. Of course, people can do what they like, believe what they like, it's their biznis.

There are, more or less, three definitions of sex used in biology: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex.

Genetic sex is the ~chromosomes~ one. In mammals, the Y chromosome normally contains a gene named SRY, which is the main trigger that causes a fetus to begin developing along a male pathway. Occasionally, due to random errors in the process of copying DNA, an SRY gene can fall off a Y chromosome or even jump over to an X chromosome: this is one of the ways you get people with XX chromosomes who develop physically as male, or people with XY chromosomes who develop physically as female. (There are other ways too, related to other genetic or environmental factors.) Now, the thing about genetic sex is that it's not actually used all that often by working biologists outside of the field of molecular genetics -- there's usually no point looking at chromosomes if what you're interested in is anatomy or biochemistry. So chromosomal sex is by no means the final word on whether we call an organism "male" or "female".

Gonadal sex is probably the one that gets used most often by biologists when they're identifying whether the unfortunate little critter they've just dissected is male or female: it's whether an animal has testes, ovaries, or something in between. While we don't yet have the technology to give trans women ovaries or trans men testes, long-term hormone therapy does render the birth gonads mostly non-functional, and of course they can also be surgically removed.

Phenotypic sex is the one that's of most interest to you and me in our daily lives. It refers to the development of sexually dimorphic characteristics, such as genital organs, and facial and body hair. It's mostly influenced by sex hormones, and there's a great deal that modern medicine can do to bring a trans person's sexual characteristics closer to their target sex than their birth sex. Phenotypic sex is just as biologically valid a definition of sex as the other two, and unless you're planning to either perform medical procedures on someone or have kids with them, it's the only one that's likely to have much relevance to you when you interact with other people.

Finally, we humans add an extra layer on top of all this, which we call gender. Gender includes all of the standards that are used in a society to differentiate men from women (and other genders, in cultures or subcultures that recognise more than two genders). Some of the characteristics by which people are categorised into one gender or another are related to phenotypic sex, but others are purely behavioural -- dress, grooming and so on.

So when it comes to how we decide whether to call someone a man or a woman, chromosomes are really a very small part of the story. After all, societies were categorising people into genders long before chromosomes were even discovered, and we easily discern whether people are men or women every day without it even occurring to us to look at their chromosomes first.

Stop being terrible at basic high school biology.

In mammals the chromosomes pretty much determine the gonadal & phenotype sex, whether anyone knows about them or not. The cultural thing is exactly what I somewhat dispute.

[Coccygia]

I have indeed but these are pretty rare conditions, and have little relevance overall...just trying to keep to the main point.

How about you respond to what I said, mm?

Eh? Thought I did.