Communism

[CTALNH]

We already are doing that in phase 2...

It would take hundreds of years to achieve communism.The new enlightened Socialist citizen will have by then be made.

through genetic manipulation?

Through education and support from the new society.

[Dejanic]

If the means of production were commonly owned and a society based off the principles of ability and need existed, then why would we need 100s of years of "Socialism" until Communism could be achieved, the material, scientific and technological conditions of our society have changed dramatically, this isn't the 1800's.

I do believe in a transitional DOTP, I'm no Anarchist, but 100's of years? Seems a tad absurd. Though I don't know why I'm telling this to a bigot who has a state fetish.

[CTALNH]

If the means of production were commonly owned and a society based off the principles of ability and need existed, then why would we need 100s of years of "Socialism" until Communism could be achieved, the material, scientific and technological conditions of our society have changed dramatically, this isn't the 1800's.

I do believe in a transitional DOTP, I'm no Anarchist, but 100's of years? Seems a tad absurd. Though I don't know why I'm telling this to a bigot who has a state fetish.

I am not a bigot.

If we take Lenins word its 500 years not 100.

[Pragia]

through genetic manipulation?

Through education and support from the new society.

You mean indoctrination? Your plan is so far fetched that you have to indoctrinate people, and kill those who don't agree/conform to your beliefs. This remind anyone of a certain German dictatorship some 75 years ago started a world war, or a certain Russian leader from the same era?

[Volnotova]

This is why no one believes you when you call thyself a leftist.

For stating the obvious?

How the hell am I gonna categorize Americans and people like the Americans then?(When I mean stupid I mean politically inept)

"People are stupid, people. But behold, your savior has arrived! Surrender your sovereignty, your rights, your privacy, your property and all will be fine and well!"

[Dejanic]

If the means of production were commonly owned and a society based off the principles of ability and need existed, then why would we need 100s of years of "Socialism" until Communism could be achieved, the material, scientific and technological conditions of our society have changed dramatically, this isn't the 1800's.

I do believe in a transitional DOTP, I'm no Anarchist, but 100's of years? Seems a tad absurd. Though I don't know why I'm telling this to a bigot who has a state fetish.

I am not a bigot.

If we take Lenins word its 500 years not 100.

Because he was a Croatian and screwed his people harder than any other ethnicity in Yugoslavia...

God Damned Fascist Nazi collaborators Croatians

1. Croatians are still fascist friendly like the Baltic states he should have screwed them even harder...Like Stalin should have done to the Baltic states

http://forum.nationstates.org/viewtopic ... &start=475

A few examples of casual discrimination, I could find more if you want.

[CTALNH]

For stating the obvious?

How the hell am I gonna categorize Americans and people like the Americans then?(When I mean stupid I mean politically inept)

"People are stupid, people. But behold, your savior has arrived! Surrender your sovereignty, your rights, your privacy, your property and all will be fine and well!"

Says who capitalism speaking through you?

[CTALNH]

I am not a bigot.

If we take Lenins word its 500 years not 100.

Because he was a Croatian and screwed his people harder than any other ethnicity in Yugoslavia...

God Damned Fascist Nazi collaborators Croatians

1. Croatians are still fascist friendly like the Baltic states he should have screwed them even harder...Like Stalin should have done to the Baltic states

http://forum.nationstates.org/viewtopic ... &start=475

A few examples of casual discrimination, I could find more if you want.

Casual discrimination against fascists?Wow the Irony is strong right?

[Sociobiology]

~Snip~

Communism is the next step forward for humankind.Even if everything gets fucked up it can never degenerate to Orwells 1984 bullshit.

do you know what a strawman is?

Communism mean cultural pluralism not liberal-bourgeois views of individualistic freedom.The collective above all else.

which means you can't use humans.

Drinking, Gambling,Smoking,Drugs and prudism,racism,sexism and the gap between the poor and the rich that is widening are not progression but degeneration of the capitalist society.

well racism and sexism has nothing to do with capitalism, they existed long before capitalism.
As for the rest, so much for pluralism, the loss of pluralism is what killed the soviet union, because the state decided it could dictate science to scientists

"Current states seem to be doing just fine."

Are you fucking kidding me?2009 there were 50.7 million people in the US (16.7% of the population) that did not have health insurance.We both freaking know that the corporation won't give a fucking dame if they live or die.

wow way to cherry pick there a lot more countries than the US in the world.

The enlightened Socialist citizen will be the perfect human.

and thus incapable of original thought.

"This is why communism kills science."

What?Mr Sociobiology I think you are are half lieing here.
Are we forgetting what the soviets achieved in physics,medicine and mathematics?
Or Sputnik?The first man in space?

all built on technology they achieved before switching to communism, their progress after WW2 was almost non-existent compared to the rest of the world.
what advancements in medicine, or physics did the soviets achieve after WW2?
there is a big spike in technology after WW2 (mostly thanks to relocated German scientists) then advancement grinds to a halt.

Consumer technologies where held back yes.

and agricultural science, biological science, and anything else not of direct use by the military, was all but stagnant, technology ground to a standstill.
actually biological science went into reverse.

Innovation is better if its state managed.

source.

If a product is not profitable for mass production we all know that only the rich will buy it.

which has what to do with the discussion.

[Volnotova]

"People are stupid, people. But behold, your savior has arrived! Surrender your sovereignty, your rights, your privacy, your property and all will be fine and well!"

Says who capitalism speaking through you?

Says you, Vanguard Party ideologue.

I think it is clear to most people in this thread what you folks mean by "Vanguard Partyism".

Also, I am not a capitalist.

[CTALNH]

Through education and support from the new society.

You mean indoctrination? Your plan is so far fetched that you have to indoctrinate people, and kill those who don't agree/conform to your beliefs. This remind anyone of a certain German dictatorship some 75 years ago started a world war, or a certain Russian leader from the same era?

And how am I supposed to make communism then?

Even the freaking Anarchist Mahko had to kill a few thousand Ukrainians to solidify his Anarchist Collectivist communes.

[CTALNH]

Says who capitalism speaking through you?

Says you, Vanguard Party ideologue.

I think it is clear to most people in this thread what you folks mean by "Vanguard Partyism".

Also, I am not a capitalist.

Lenin:Around 50 thousand Hardliner individuals that are to be the ideological guides for the people.

What are you then?

You are uttering liberal bourgeois views after all.

[Pragia]

You mean indoctrination? Your plan is so far fetched that you have to indoctrinate people, and kill those who don't agree/conform to your beliefs. This remind anyone of a certain German dictatorship some 75 years ago started a world war, or a certain Russian leader from the same era?

And how am I supposed to make communism then?

Even the freaking Anarchist Mahko had to kill a few thousand Ukrainians to solidify his Anarchist Collectivist communes.

Maybe, just maybe, a system that requires the killing of a majority of earths population and indoctrination of the rest isn't worth it? What if it doesn't work? What if you missed one guy who decides to seize power? Then what? All of it for nothing.

[Sociobiology]

How? Mankinds moments of greatest advancement were caused by capitalism, and you're propaganda posters don't help your cause.

That's not quite true. Mankind's greatest moments and advancements were caused by individual will to pursue ideas and desires.

well not really, after the industrial revolution it is almost all collective action often with state funding, with quite a big mix of competition. The lone inventor is pretty much a myth.

Remove Capitalism, and this is still possible. Now admittedly, Capitalism is phenomenal when it comes to increasing productivity, and therefore, speeding up the process by which advancements may be made.

eh possibly, there is evidence patents do more harm than good.
capitalism is easily the best for implementation of technology, as long as it is not in one of the few fields that starts off with a naturally broken market (like healthcare).

But the key things to remember are (1) this does not make Capitalism the cause of these advancements, and (2) that increased productivity does not necessarily equate to increased human wellbeing, and therefore, does not justify the system in of itself.

solid points

[Dejanic]

Because he was a Croatian and screwed his people harder than any other ethnicity in Yugoslavia...

God Damned Fascist Nazi collaborators Croatians

1. Croatians are still fascist friendly like the Baltic states he should have screwed them even harder...Like Stalin should have done to the Baltic states

http://forum.nationstates.org/viewtopic ... &start=475

A few examples of casual discrimination, I could find more if you want.

Casual discrimination against fascists?Wow the Irony is strong right?

Croatian and baltic workers are all fascists? Explain to me how you're not a run of the mill racist.

[Volnotova]

~Snip~

Communism is the next step forward for humankind.Even if everything gets fucked up it can never degenerate to Orwells 1984 bullshit.See the Soviet Union.Sure some up and downs but it never degenerated to 1984.Capitalist West though....Drugs, Alcohol etc etc. All in the name of the old and well-known liberal-bourgeois views.

Communism mean cultural pluralism not liberal-bourgeois views of individualistic freedom. The collective above all else.

Oh haha.

In a way I would be inclined to agree.

Except I actually do understand what you mean by "Communism". Which is closer to the degenerate and feeble proletariat at the bottom with you superior and posthuman vanguard Communist™ ideologues at the top.

Because after all, let's be honest here, you expect some profound political influence in such a system, right?

I mean after all, you helped "elevate" those poor working class folks.

[Selegnia]

The Free Territory (aka Makhnovia) only "failed" because Lenin waged a propaganda war against them, and broke a previously existing alliance between them by launching surprise attacks. No, the USSR was never communist. Yes, it was state capitalist. What happened in the Free Territory alone is evidence enough that what the Bolsheviks wanted never really was "full communism".

Revolutionary Catalonia only "failed" because of the combined forces of fascists, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.

I put "failed" in quotation marks because communism never really failed on its own merits. In fact, it works quite well. The only reason they didn't last is because the state doesn't want its power undermined. This isn't a reason to give up or be cynical. Rather, it is a reason to fight even harder.

B-b-b-but muh Uncle Bubba sez that social darwinism sez that that means they dun failed...

Really, though, another excellent point. There have been fairly successful revolutions, and we simply have not seen the results of them (which were promising at the time) because the fact that they might have worked was intolerably threatening to every power group out there.

Don't forget Texaco was sending oil to Franco's forces and the Nazis to help quash the Republican forces in the Spanish Civil War. It's not just states, it's also all those multinationals you know and love - and has been for a long time.

The Soviet Union sent stuff to the republicans as well, and many countries sent voluntaries that formed the International Brigades. I live in the city where their headquarters was .

[CTALNH]

And how am I supposed to make communism then?

Even the freaking Anarchist Mahko had to kill a few thousand Ukrainians to solidify his Anarchist Collectivist communes.

Maybe, just maybe, a system that requires the killing of a majority of earths population and indoctrination of the rest isn't worth it? What if it doesn't work? What if you missed one guy who decides to seize power? Then what? All of it for nothing.

I would have probably taught them how to shoot.

And know what to shoot.

I am not gonna make them a bunch of pacifists.

[CTALNH]

Communism is the next step forward for humankind.Even if everything gets fucked up it can never degenerate to Orwells 1984 bullshit.See the Soviet Union.Sure some up and downs but it never degenerated to 1984.Capitalist West though....Drugs, Alcohol etc etc. All in the name of the old and well-known liberal-bourgeois views.

Communism mean cultural pluralism not liberal-bourgeois views of individualistic freedom. The collective above all else.

Oh haha.

In a way I would be inclined to agree.

Except I actually do understand what you mean by "Communism". Which is closer to the degenerate and feeble proletariat at the bottom with you superior and posthuman vanguard Communist™ ideologues at the top.

Because after all, let's be honest here, you expect some profound political influence in such a system, right?

I mean after all, you helped "elevate" those poor working class folks.

Please stop personally making fun of me.

I feel hurt...

[Yorkopolis]

This is why no one believes you when you call thyself a leftist.

For stating the obvious?

How the hell am I gonna categorize Americans and people like the Americans then?(When I mean stupid I mean politically inept)

A leftist would never say something like "people have realized their place and class". You basically said that you were in support of social hierarchy and tradtional hierarchy. You have just refuted everything you have ever said in that one sentence. Great work.

[CTALNH]

B-b-b-but muh Uncle Bubba sez that social darwinism sez that that means they dun failed...

Really, though, another excellent point. There have been fairly successful revolutions, and we simply have not seen the results of them (which were promising at the time) because the fact that they might have worked was intolerably threatening to every power group out there.

Don't forget Texaco was sending oil to Franco's forces and the Nazis to help quash the Republican forces in the Spanish Civil War. It's not just states, it's also all those multinationals you know and love - and has been for a long time.

The Soviet Union sent stuff to the republicans as well, and many countries sent voluntaries that formed the International Brigades. I live in the city where their headquarters was .

Yeah a few hundred thousand rifles,tanks,airplanes,cannons and bullets more or less arming all the Republican forces....Also Uncle Bubba organized the initiative of the international brigades.

[Pragia]

Maybe, just maybe, a system that requires the killing of a majority of earths population and indoctrination of the rest isn't worth it? What if it doesn't work? What if you missed one guy who decides to seize power? Then what? All of it for nothing.

I would have probably taught them how to shoot.

And know what to shoot.

I am not gonna make them a bunch of pacifists.

And those who join this man who has influence knows how to shoot guns
What if the people don't want to plunge the devastated world into another war?
So you have communes of warlike communists as the perfect system, that sounds like feudalism to me.

[Yorkopolis]

They are still cooperating outside of the immediate benefit of their selves, even if it is with relatives. The point is that mutual aid is an essential tool for survival, and not some strict competitive nature of one against all.


I agree completely. On that point, Bakunin has been historically accurate. Of course, I still disagree with him on other things. But that's why I describe myself as an "anarchist", and not as a "Bakuninist".

All anarchists derive from some variation of Bakunism.

Anarchism is stupid.The end.

You're not a communist. The end.

Not that I am or whatever...

[Volnotova]

Casual discrimination against fascists?Wow the Irony is strong right?

Croatian and baltic workers are all fascists? Explain to me how you're not a run of the mill racist.

CTAHLN and racism?

You don't say.

Oh haha.

In a way I would be inclined to agree.

Except I actually do understand what you mean by "Communism". Which is closer to the degenerate and feeble proletariat at the bottom with you superior and posthuman vanguard Communist™ ideologues at the top.

Because after all, let's be honest here, you expect some profound political influence in such a system, right?

I mean after all, you helped "elevate" those poor working class folks.

Please stop personally making fun of me.

I feel hurt...

You're making fun of your self, we are just pointing out the obvious.

If you really want to be a true Communist (and not one of those delusional megalomaniac vanguard party ideologues who still end up saturating themselves in excessive wealth while their "proletariat" starves to death, or otherwise resides in near widespread misery) stop supporting outright Red Fascists and other genocidal megalomaniac faux-communists.

[CTALNH]

For stating the obvious?

How the hell am I gonna categorize Americans and people like the Americans then?(When I mean stupid I mean politically inept)

A leftist would never say something like "people have realized their place and class". You basically said that you were in support of social hierarchy and tradtional hierarchy. You have just refuted everything you have ever said in that one sentence. Great work.

No not really.

They have realized their place and class and do not conform with the already placed hierarchy.In short mentally awakened their full revolutionary potential.

Is what you seemed to have missed entirely.