Communism

[Conscentia]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

Totalitarianism.

[Conscentia]

NO. Socialism does not require a strengthened state. That's utter nonsense.

Just revolutionary terror.

Nonsense again.

[CTALNH]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

Totalitarianism.

Anti revisionist Marxist Leninism.

[CTALNH]

Just revolutionary terror.

Nonsense again.

Marx said it not Stalin nor Lenin.

[Conscentia]

Nonsense again.

Marx said it not Stalin nor Lenin.

I don't care what Marx said.

[CTALNH]

Marx said it not Stalin nor Lenin.

I don't care what Marx said.

Then get out of the tread.

If you are gonna discuss then know your facts.

[Conscentia]

I don't care what Marx said.

Then get out of the tread.
If you are gonna discuss then know your facts.

Socialism pre-dates Marx - that is a fact.
What Marx said on the subject is therefore irrelevant to anyone who is not a Marxist.

[CTALNH]

Then get out of the tread.
If you are gonna discuss then know your facts.

Socialism pre-dates Marx - that is a fact.
What Marx said on the subject is therefore irrelevant to anyone who is not a Marxist.

Tread says "Communism"

While I know communists are socialists and not all socialists are communists and that socialism pre dates marxism.

The tread still says "Communism"

[Conscentia]

Socialism pre-dates Marx - that is a fact.
What Marx said on the subject is therefore irrelevant to anyone who is not a Marxist.

Tread says "Communism"

While I know communists are socialists and not all socialists are communists and that socialism pre dates marxism.

The tread still says "Communism"

I responded to a post that claimed that "socialism" requires a strengthened state. That is nonsense.
You then responded with "Just revolutionary terror" which is also nonsense. Socialism doesn't require revolutionary terror.
What was being discussed was socialism, not what Marx said.

Additionally, there is such a thing as non-Marxian communism.

[CTALNH]

Tread says "Communism"

While I know communists are socialists and not all socialists are communists and that socialism pre dates marxism.

The tread still says "Communism"

I responded to a post that claimed that "socialism" requires a strengthened state. That is nonsense.
You then responded with "Just revolutionary terror" which is also nonsense. Socialism doesn't require revolutionary terror.
What was being discussed was socialism, not what Marx said.

Additionally, there is such a thing as non-Marxian communism.

Tribal Communalism or Collectivist Anarchism?

[Conscentia]

I responded to a post that claimed that "socialism" requires a strengthened state. That is nonsense.
You then responded with "Just revolutionary terror" which is also nonsense. Socialism doesn't require revolutionary terror.
What was being discussed was socialism, not what Marx said.

Additionally, there is such a thing as non-Marxian communism.

Tribal Communalism or Collectivist Anarchism?

There's more than two, and most non-Marxist communists simply associate with "communism" rather than some new specifically non-Marxist variant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Marxist_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Early_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism:

Council communists and non-Marxist libertarian communists and anarcho-communists oppose the ideas of a vanguard party and a transition stage, and advocate for the construction of full communism to begin immediately upon the abolition of capitalism.
[...]

[CTALNH]

Tribal Communalism or Collectivist Anarchism?

There's more than two, and most non-Marxist communists simply associate with "communism" rather than some new specifically non-Marxist variant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Marxist_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Early_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism:

Council communists and non-Marxist libertarian communists and anarcho-communists oppose the ideas of a vanguard party and a transition stage, and advocate for the construction of full communism to begin immediately upon the abolition of capitalism.
[...]

Indeed thats why we shoot them.

Damned Bakunin!

[Kaesar the invincible]

I am against communism for many reasons

Firstly, because I have always been a moderate objectivist. I agree that some regulations need to be put on buisnesses and we need taxes for some things but selfishness is a virtue and is what drives the economy and even the world. without capitalism what would be my motivation to work if I know Ill still get benifits? are we all not entitled to the sweat of our own brow? communism is in direct violation of our rights to property which is one of the most fundamental freedoms. It is also in direct violation of human nature which is to be selfish. being selfish is not bad it is good. the store owner doesnt sell to you out of the goodness of his heart he offers you a fair price so you keep coming back. human nature is commerce, without it we cease to be who we are. and the lack of personal choice is also a problem in a capitalist society you can choose your job and choose what you buy with the money you earned, in communism none of that happens.
I was raised in a former USSR country and my parents were of the mid upper class and had all their wealth taken away which is utterly unfair and is basically theft they also took our house and our neighbours's houses and built an appartment block where a bunch of houses used to be again taking personal property and having liberties with it should not be allowed.

[CTALNH]

I am against communism for many reasons

Firstly, because I have always been a moderate objectivist. I agree that some regulations need to be put on buisnesses and we need taxes for some things but selfishness is a virtue and is what drives the economy and even the world. without capitalism what would be my motivation to work if I know Ill still get benifits? are we all not entitled to the sweat of our own brow? communism is in direct violation of our rights to property which is one of the most fundamental freedoms. It is also in direct violation of human nature which is to be selfish. being selfish is not bad it is good. the store owner doesnt sell to you out of the goodness of his heart he offers you a fair price so you keep coming back. human nature is commerce, without it we cease to be who we are. and the lack of personal choice is also a problem in a capitalist society you can choose your job and choose what you buy with the money you earned, in communism none of that happens.
I was raised in a former USSR country and my parents were of the mid upper class and had all their wealth taken away which is utterly unfair and is basically theft they also took our house and our neighbours's houses and built an appartment block where a bunch of houses used to be again taking personal property and having liberties with it should not be allowed.

Sadly I am not a moderate communist.
Guess the rest.

[Conscentia]

Indeed thats why we shoot them.

Damned Bakunin!

If you kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, you'll end up with a planet with a only 10 people on and an omnipresent smell of death.
How about not killing everyone who doesn't agree with you?

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Communism in the Manifesto sounds compelling.

In practice it sucks. Corruption, tyranny and oppression.

This

[Renetopia]

I really don't like communism. Socialism, on the other hand, I favor it.

[CTALNH]

Indeed thats why we shoot them.

Damned Bakunin!

If you kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, you'll end up with a planet with a only 10 people on and an omnipresent smell of death.
How about not killing everyone who doesn't agree with you?

Oh mind control...

Nah its better to be respected and feared than to be loved.

[Sociobiology]

How else will you create a collective society in a post-revolutionary environment? Capitalists, and really, most normal people will not voluntarily relinquish their property.

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

so how is that different than those of us living in a state telling you people who don't wan't one to leave?
At least we have the decency to give you an education first.

[Conscentia]

If you kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, you'll end up with a planet with a only 10 people on and an omnipresent smell of death.
How about not killing everyone who doesn't agree with you?

Oh mind control...
Nah its better to be respected and feared than to be loved.

You won't be respected.

[CTALNH]

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

so how is that different than those of us living in a state telling you people who don't wan't one to leave?
At least we have the decency to give you an education first.

Or just shoot you so you stop bitching.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

The solution, logically, then, is to not concentrate power.

Except Marx says that to get to communism you must first go through socialism... which requires a strengthened state to set the preconditions to launch into communism over an unspecified length of time.

Marx isn't the be-all and end-all.

''...Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels (interpretation: by the state, who else?)...
...Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly...
...Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State...
...Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan...''

It's part of his theory of historical materialism... you know... the bit where he says history is inevitably progressing to communism starting from slave societies to feudal societies to capitalists than socialists and finally communism?

There's also the fact that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" in actuality refers to the proletarians achieving collective class dominance rather than "hurr durr democide", and the fact that Marx and Engels heartily endorsed the Paris Commune.

Are we now going to completely scrap the socialist stage now in favor of jumping straight into anarchist candyland? Now I wonder why the Stalinists aren't calling YOU guys fake communists...

Yes, because one cannot be a communist and disagree with Marx. Obviously.

It's not as if Kropotkin and Bakunin were actual people or anything.

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

so how is that different than those of us living in a state telling you people who don't wan't one to leave?

Because capitalists are being given the option to form their own capitalist communes if they want and if all members within said commune consent to being there?

If you kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, you'll end up with a planet with a only 10 people on and an omnipresent smell of death.
How about not killing everyone who doesn't agree with you?

Oh mind control...

Nah its better to be respected and feared than to be loved.

You are an absolutely crap leftist.

[CTALNH]

Oh mind control...
Nah its better to be respected and feared than to be loved.

You won't be respected.

When a guy has a metaphorical gun at your face all the time you will learn to respect him sooner or later.


And especially fear him.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

You won't be respected.

When a guy has a metaphorical gun at your face all the time you will learn to respect him sooner or later.

And especially fear him.

Again, your fetish for power and death and your hatred of anything that isn't totalitarianism makes you a crap leftist.

[CTALNH]

Except Marx says that to get to communism you must first go through socialism... which requires a strengthened state to set the preconditions to launch into communism over an unspecified length of time.

Marx isn't the be-all and end-all.

''...Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels (interpretation: by the state, who else?)...
...Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly...
...Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State...
...Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan...''

It's part of his theory of historical materialism... you know... the bit where he says history is inevitably progressing to communism starting from slave societies to feudal societies to capitalists than socialists and finally communism?

There's also the fact that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" in actuality refers to the proletarians achieving collective class dominance rather than "hurr durr democide", and the fact that Marx and Engels heartily endorsed the Paris Commune.

Are we now going to completely scrap the socialist stage now in favor of jumping straight into anarchist candyland? Now I wonder why the Stalinists aren't calling YOU guys fake communists...

Yes, because one cannot be a communist and disagree with Marx. Obviously.

It's not as if Kropotkin and Bakunin were actual people or anything.

so how is that different than those of us living in a state telling you people who don't wan't one to leave?

Because capitalists are being given the option to form their own capitalist communes if they want and if all members within said commune consent to being there?

Oh mind control...

Nah its better to be respected and feared than to be loved.

You are an absolutely crap leftist.

Crap leftist that supports a crap nation that lasted more than a decade!