Communism

[Nua Corda]

I call bull on the lot of this.

Why?

You can call yourself Christian so long as you can back it up with parts of an authoritative text that at times contradicts itself/is vague enough.

The type of Christian who goes out lynching gays just chooses to interpret more of the OT as literal and the NT as figurative and the type of Christian who condemns such behavior just chooses to interpret more of the NT as literal and more of the OT as figurative.

In the same way, you can call yourself a communist so long as you can back your position and methods with an authoritative text that at times contradicts itself/is vague enough.

Marx told you there should be a vanguard party to overthrow capitalism and then establish a transitional stage lead by a strong socialist government. He didn't say for how long this state should be around for... only that it would eventually get abolished once it becomes unecessary and once we are ready for statelessness, classlessness, and moneylessness.

This leaves the door wide open for the Stalinists, who are part of the Marxist-Leninist camp, to say that this period ought to be pretty long as it applied to countries like the Soviet Union. It also leaves the door open for more liberal far lefties to say that this period ought to be brief...

Who's right? Who's to say? All we can say is that both sides are communist in the way they think and communist in their styles of interpretation because their objectives are communist in nature.

That's still a fallacy. I can call myself a turtle, because I claim to aspire to live in a pond and bury my eggs in the sand. Doesn't make me one. Also conveniently ignores the motivations of Stalin himself.

[Jassysworth 1]

Why?

You can call yourself Christian so long as you can back it up with parts of an authoritative text that at times contradicts itself/is vague enough.

The type of Christian who goes out lynching gays just chooses to interpret more of the OT as literal and the NT as figurative and the type of Christian who condemns such behavior just chooses to interpret more of the NT as literal and more of the OT as figurative.

In the same way, you can call yourself a communist so long as you can back your position and methods with an authoritative text that at times contradicts itself/is vague enough.

Marx told you there should be a vanguard party to overthrow capitalism and then establish a transitional stage lead by a strong socialist government. He didn't say for how long this state should be around for... only that it would eventually get abolished once it becomes unecessary and once we are ready for statelessness, classlessness, and moneylessness.

This leaves the door wide open for the Stalinists, who are part of the Marxist-Leninist camp, to say that this period ought to be pretty long as it applied to countries like the Soviet Union. It also leaves the door open for more liberal far lefties to say that this period ought to be brief...

Who's right? Who's to say? All we can say is that both sides are communist in the way they think and communist in their styles of interpretation because their objectives are communist in nature.

That's still a fallacy. I can call myself a turtle, because I claim to aspire to live in a pond and bury my eggs in the sand. Doesn't make me one. Also conveniently ignores the motivations of Stalin himself.

Except Stalinists are not like that turtle. They just take what's written and said by a guy in the 19th century and have a particular interpretation of it (one in which the vanguard and the transitional socialist state has a need to stay around for a bit longer than left anarchists would like...)

Can you read his mind? Can you say with 100% certainty he didn't do what he did because he believed it was the most practical/only realistic way to achieve Marx's vision in the long run?

Because that's what Stalinists would say and that's why it's a Marxist-Leninist variation of communism.

[Nua Corda]

That's still a fallacy. I can call myself a turtle, because I claim to aspire to live in a pond and bury my eggs in the sand. Doesn't make me one. Also conveniently ignores the motivations of Stalin himself.

Except Stalinists are not like that turtle. They just take what's written and said by a guy in the 19th century and have a particular interpretation of it (one in which the vanguard and the transitional socialist state has a need to stay around for a bit longer than left anarchists would like...)

Can you read his mind? Can you say with 100% certainty he didn't do what he did because he believed it was the most practical/only realistic way to achieve Marx's vision in the long run?

Because that's what Stalinists would say and that's why it's a Marxist-Leninist variation of communism.

It's almost like you think the only part of my argument you need to contend with is the part I quoted...

[Kalosia]

I said it's good, doesn't mean I'm in favour of it. [...]

Why wouldn't you be in favour of something good?

I'm in favour of something that I think is better. (You deleted it out of that quote)

[Uryto]

Communism in the Manifesto sounds compelling.

In practice it sucks. Corruption, tyranny and oppression.

True to everything you said.

[Godwintopia]

That's still a fallacy. I can call myself a turtle, because I claim to aspire to live in a pond and bury my eggs in the sand. Doesn't make me one. Also conveniently ignores the motivations of Stalin himself.

So Stalin certainly isn't a Capitalist. So what is he? He was following the book but not in the way intended by it's authors.

He's more like a bad misbehaving turtle than not a turtle.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

That's still a fallacy. I can call myself a turtle, because I claim to aspire to live in a pond and bury my eggs in the sand. Doesn't make me one. Also conveniently ignores the motivations of Stalin himself.

So Stalin certainly isn't a Capitalist. So what is he? He was following the book but not in the way intended by it's authors.

He's more like a bad misbehaving turtle than not a turtle.

He's more like a highly aggressive seal that believed himself to be a turtle, and consequently thought that murdering all the turtles who said that he wasn't a turtle was the best way to ensure an equal future for turtles, regardless of what various leading turtle theorists including Turtle Marx, Turtle Engels, Turtle Kropotkin and Turtle Bakunin before him had said, despite the fact that he claimed to be both a turtle and a disciple of the particularly aggressive and unorthodox turtle Lenin and the theoretician Turtle Marx.

God, I love analogies.

[Lemanrussland]

I am generally against Communism, because the price mechanism is just a lot more efficient at allocating resources than central planning ever will be. The extreme centralization of power in the state which is common in Communist societies also leads to abuse and tyranny.

I believe that if you want to create the most social good and freedom for everyone in society, you should combine the economic freedoms and efficiency of the capitalist system with universalist social welfare programs designed to give everyone a minimum threshold of opportunity in society, and to ameliorate poverty. West Germany and South Korea accomplished a lot more for it's people with this mixed model than East Germany or North Korea ever could with their centrally planned Communist models.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

I am generally against Communism, because the price mechanism is just a lot more efficient at allocating resources than central planning ever will be. The extreme centralization of power in the state which is common in Communist societies also leads to abuse and tyranny.

Tell me more about how an anarchistic ideology promotes central planning.

[Lemanrussland]

I am generally against Communism, because the price mechanism is just a lot more efficient at allocating resources than central planning ever will be. The extreme centralization of power in the state which is common in Communist societies also leads to abuse and tyranny.

Tell me more about how an anarchistic ideology promotes central planning.

Typically what has happened after Communist revolutionary wars, is that a state was set up to "move society forwards to Socialism". Sure, the final stage of Communism is supposed to be stateless, classless, and moneyless, but that has never happened, and for good reason. Once power is concentrated, it's not easily broken.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Tell me more about how an anarchistic ideology promotes central planning.

Typically what has happened after Communist revolutionary wars, is that a state was set up to "move society forwards to Socialism". Sure, the final stage of Communism is supposed to be stateless, classless, and moneyless, but that has never happened, and for good reason. Once power is concentrated, it's not easily broken.

The solution, logically, then, is to not concentrate power.

[Lemanrussland]

Typically what has happened after Communist revolutionary wars, is that a state was set up to "move society forwards to Socialism". Sure, the final stage of Communism is supposed to be stateless, classless, and moneyless, but that has never happened, and for good reason. Once power is concentrated, it's not easily broken.

The solution, logically, then, is to not concentrate power.

How else will you create a collective society in a post-revolutionary environment? Capitalists, and really, most normal people will not voluntarily relinquish their property.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

The solution, logically, then, is to not concentrate power.

How else will you create a collective society in a post-revolutionary environment? Capitalists, and really, most normal people will not voluntarily relinquish their property.

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

[Jassysworth 1]

I am generally against Communism, because the price mechanism is just a lot more efficient at allocating resources than central planning ever will be. The extreme centralization of power in the state which is common in Communist societies also leads to abuse and tyranny.

Tell me more about how an anarchistic ideology promotes central planning.

never mind how Marx talked about a transitional socialist state-based stage in which central planning and concentration of power is necessary right?

Now communism is a completely anarchistic philosophy and there is no role for the state whatsoever... not even in the middle

I love how communists keep seeking to discredit each other rather than unite against the capitalists even when they are so few in number (Marxist-Leninists point at left anarchists and say they are idealistic fools... and left anarchists point at Marxist-Leninists and say they are not real communists).

[Jassysworth 1]

Typically what has happened after Communist revolutionary wars, is that a state was set up to "move society forwards to Socialism". Sure, the final stage of Communism is supposed to be stateless, classless, and moneyless, but that has never happened, and for good reason. Once power is concentrated, it's not easily broken.

The solution, logically, then, is to not concentrate power.

Except Marx says that to get to communism you must first go through socialism... which requires a strengthened state to set the preconditions to launch into communism over an unspecified length of time.

''...Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels (interpretation: by the state, who else?)...
...Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly...
...Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State...
...Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan...''

It's part of his theory of historical materialism... you know... the bit where he says history is inevitably progressing to communism starting from slave societies to feudal societies to capitalists than socialists and finally communism?

Are we now going to completely scrap the socialist stage now in favor of jumping straight into anarchist candyland? Now I wonder why the Stalinists aren't calling YOU guys fake communists...

[CTALNH]

So Stalin certainly isn't a Capitalist. So what is he? He was following the book but not in the way intended by it's authors.

He's more like a bad misbehaving turtle than not a turtle.

He's more like a highly aggressive seal that believed himself to be a turtle, and consequently thought that murdering all the turtles who said that he wasn't a turtle was the best way to ensure an equal future for turtles, regardless of what various leading turtle theorists including Turtle Marx, Turtle Engels, Turtle Kropotkin and Turtle Bakunin before him had said, despite the fact that he claimed to be both a turtle and a disciple of the particularly aggressive and unorthodox turtle Lenin and the theoretician Turtle Marx.

God, I love analogies.

The guy that everyone from Lenin,Trotsky and Stalin had an urge to go stab stabity time if their ever met him?


Are you actually saying Marx = Bakunin?

Weren't they ideological enemies?

If I remember Marx said that Bakunin was an idealist idiot and Bakunin said Marx was a totaltorian asshole.

Deja vu

[Great Nepal]

How else will you create a collective society in a post-revolutionary environment? Capitalists, and really, most normal people will not voluntarily relinquish their property.

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

So, everyone who owns money will show you middle finger and declare their property and resources as capitalist commune and establish government with military. Which will invade and end communist commune, if the host nation itself didn't.

[CTALNH]

No-one's asking anyone else to relinquish personal property unwillingly. If capitalists don't want to live in a communal society they're free to start a capitalist commune or just leave.

So, everyone who owns money will show you middle finger and declare their property and resources as capitalist commune and establish government with military. Which will invade and end communist commune, if the host nation itself didn't.

I got a solution.
Revolutionary terror through Jacobin coercion.

[Great Nepal]

So, everyone who owns money will show you middle finger and declare their property and resources as capitalist commune and establish government with military. Which will invade and end communist commune, if the host nation itself didn't.

I got a solution.
Revolutionary terror through Jacobin coercion.

So USSR? No thanks.

[Alekera]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

[CTALNH]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

Anti revisionist Marxist Leninism.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

State capitalism.

[CTALNH]

My big question is: Without using the word "Stalinist", what political ideology would you use to describe Stalin's political views.

State capitalism.

[Conscentia]

Except Marx says that to get to communism you must first go through socialism... which requires a strengthened state [...]

NO. Socialism does not require a strengthened state. That's utter nonsense.

[CTALNH]

Except Marx says that to get to communism you must first go through socialism... which requires a strengthened state [...]

NO. Socialism does not require a strengthened state. That's utter nonsense.

Just revolutionary terror.