Dating advice... why can I never manage to date girls?

[Fascist Dominion]

This is why everyone should come with an instruction manual,

But it's so much more fun to learn what they like the hard way.

Easier to prep to risk failure the first time with someone you don't care about.

You don't prepare for failure by not trying hard enough. When you write an exam do you half-ass it so you won't feel as bad when you sink a final? One should go for it. Failure is a given anyway with girls -- it's all numbers. The more he goes for the more his chances of success wil increase. And he can ascertain their interest before-hand anyhow by smiling at them and chatting them up. If the convo goes will, he asks them out. If not, move along.

Finding a woman he's interested in isn't flipping quarters. This whole approach is better suited to someone who just wants to get laid. Seems silly to whore oneself out to first-contacts. The best advice is to simply tell him to ask them when he's interested. Worst case, her boyfriend is taking a piss and beats him half to death upon his return.

As for finding women who would interest him, that depends on what kind of women he's actually interested in. If it's women like him, maybe those who do similar things or some such. It might be more interesting to interact with someone who's quite different but shares a few common values. How he would go about finding such a person is quite beyond me, though.

[Barzan]

*snip OP*

When you see a girl you like, go straight up to her and ask her out. She might turn you down, but you'll live. Don't hang out with her to get to know her for a week; you'll end up in the dreaded Friend Zone. Get to know her while you're dating, you can always pull the plug.
[Emphasis mine]

Isn't that the truth! If a girl says "yes" and goes out with you then she's interested, assuming you've not met her and been relegated to that "friend zone".

Yup-yup, and the longer you hang out with her without asking her out, the more likely you'll end up in that Zone. (I've been on both ends of this situation, several times. I have learned my lesson.)

Wha? But as a girl, you're the one who decides where the boundaries of the "friend zone" lie. How can you get stuck in it? Or are you assertive and you ask guys out? If so, I sure wish more girls were like that.

Yeah, I've asked a few guys out. My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest. Now I ask 'em right off the bat, and I've been a bit more successful. What's your story?

Oh I didn't ever make a move when I should have, and I waited too long before making my intentions clear. Now I do better being straight-up: if I like someone and am just meeting them, I ask them out. If not, acquaintanceship followed by friendship follows. You gotta strike the first time.

[Fartsniffage]

Go talk to women, if they want to sleep with you they'll let you know.

If they don't, they'll let you know that too.

From what you said in the OP you need to just learn how to pick up on signals better.

[Fascist Dominion]

Oh I didn't ever make a move when I should have, and I waited too long before making my intentions clear. Now I do better being straight-up: if I like someone and am just meeting them, I ask them out. If not, acquaintanceship followed by friendship follows. You gotta strike the first time.

Unless they stab first.

Go talk to women, if they want to sleep with you they'll let you know.

If they don't, they'll let you know that too.

From what you said in the OP you need to just learn how to pick up on signals better.

Too bad woman signals aren't traffic signals.

[Fartsniffage]

Too bad woman signals aren't traffic signals.

They are, you just have to know the difference between green and red.

[Greed and Death]

This is why everyone should come with an instruction manual,

But it's so much more fun to learn what they like the hard way.

Easier to prep to risk failure the first time with someone you don't care about.

You don't prepare for failure by not trying hard enough. When you write an exam do you half-ass it so you won't feel as bad when you sink a final? One should go for it. Failure is a given anyway with girls -- it's all numbers. The more he goes for the more his chances of success wil increase. And he can ascertain their interest before-hand anyhow by smiling at them and chatting them up. If the convo goes will, he asks them out. If not, move along.

Finding a woman he's interested in isn't flipping quarters. This whole approach is better suited to someone who just wants to get laid. Seems silly to whore oneself out to first-contacts. The best advice is to simply tell him to ask them when he's interested. Worst case, her boyfriend is taking a piss and beats him half to death upon his return.

As for finding women who would interest him, that depends on what kind of women he's actually interested in. If it's women like him, maybe those who do similar things or some such. It might be more interesting to interact with someone who's quite different but shares a few common values. How he would go about finding such a person is quite beyond me, though.

Well to find someone with similar hobbies etc you should join a group of people who do that.
Be some what distant until you see a lass you like then swoop in.

[Greed and Death]

Too bad woman signals aren't traffic signals.

They are, you just have to know the difference between green and red.

Green means go, and red means step on the gas and blow through the intersection ?

[Barzan]

Be some what distant until you see a lass you like then swoop in.

Agreed. You can find out about her hobbies and job once you're on the date. If you turn out to think she's a windbag, move on. Otherwise you'll have gotten to know her too well and have been relegated to the "friend zone".

[Fartsniffage]

Green means go, and red means step on the gas and blow through the intersection ?

Something like that.

Although I should warn that I was being metaphorical, glowing women should be avoided at all costs.

[Greed and Death]

Be some what distant until you see a lass you like then swoop in.

Agreed. You can find out about her hobbies and job once you're on the date. If you turn out to think she's a windbag, move on. Otherwise you'll have gotten to know her too well and have been relegated to the "friend zone".

Or meet her at a group that is doing said hobbies.

On campus some of my best GFs came from the history club.

[Tahar Joblis]

Go talk to women, if they want to sleep with you they'll let you know.

If they don't, they'll let you know that too.

From what you said in the OP you need to just learn how to pick up on signals better.

Talk about crossing wires here!

Let's correct... or clarify... that. If a woman wants to sleep with you, she'll try to let you know. Eventually. Possibly using cues and signals that most men won't pick up on, leading her to frequent frustration. (I was listening to some of the complaints from women about this last weekend.)

It's also possible she'll be trying to cue interest but not to seem too interested so she doesn't "seem too easy." (It's entertaining sometimes to watch these women in action as a third party.)

Frankly, women tend to have not all that much better a handle on how to start a relationship up than men. Stereotyping has as much to do with the difference as any intrinsic fact - it's a little like math, that way.

Interesting fact: Remind Asian women that they are Asian while taking a math test, and they perform, on average, better than if you remind them they are women. Don't remind them of either and they'll fall between.

[Greed and Death]

Remember if all else fails put GHB in her beer.

[Yehrmutha]

Let's correct... or clarify... that. If a woman wants to sleep with you, she'll try to let you know. Eventually. Possibly using cues and signals that most men won't pick up on, leading her to frequent frustration. (I was listening to some of the complaints from women about this last weekend.)

It's also possible she'll be trying to cue interest but not to seem too interested so she doesn't "seem too easy." (It's entertaining sometimes to watch these women in action as a third party.)

Too true. I've had plenty of guys tell me on the subject of fuck buddies that women should just go for it and "get theirs," and then ten minutes later gripe about what a slut this one chick was for doing whatever on a first date. In this respect, women are just as filthy as men supposedly are, but many do not feel able to act on desire freely because they fear losing respect.

Anyhow, if you want a girl, don't change yourself. If you have to hide things about yourself or your personality in fear that she won't be interested in or like you, then she's not worth the effort. Granted, if you're a complete bum with no sense of personal hygiene, then that will pose a definite problem. But truly important aspects like your interests, ideals, opinons, etc. help define you. She doesn't have to love everything about you, or agree with you on every little last thing, but it's knowing that she is willing to accept your quirks or flaws that makes a relationship possible. If you can find that, you're set.

To go about getting her, don't worry about coming off looking like a complete dorkwad. As long as you are comfortable and confident with yourself, she will know and appreciate that. Hell, awkwardness and/or shyness aren't necessarily bad things either, if you are either of those. Some of us find it rather endearing. But I will say that you shouldn't wait long to ask her out. Just bulldoze on through it, come hell or high water, otherwise you'll end up stuck in the aforementioned "Friend Zone." A lot of girls dislike being the initiator, and wait for guys to ask them out first. If they feel that he's not going to ask, they will have no issue permanently categorizing you as a friend. If you end up interested in a girl who has been your friend for a while, then there are plenty of ways to snag her. Respect and reliability are a couple. You don't have to bend over backward to help her out of a tough spot, but being there when she needs you most never goes unnoticed.

Don't be afraid to look for people who aren't your "type," either. Sure, everybody has certain things they need in a person, whether physical or personality-wise, but if you become too concerned with a type checklist, you will end up missing a lot of opportunities to meet women whom you might have found ridiculously awesome had you given them a chance. I myself am now head over heels for a guy whom I had initially stuck in the never-in-a-million-years category.

As a side note, if you've ever read one of those flirting body-language article thingies on MSN or whatever, where they're saying, "Oh, well if she goes pigeon-toed..." or "Oh, well if she keeps making her neck really obvious..." they're actually pretty accurate. I've noticed myself doing both things around men I've been interested in. Most girls I know agree that we tend to face you more when we're interested, also. Other than respect, a fairly well-known reason to look her in the eye instead of the chest is that everyone's eyes dilate when they are in the presence of someone they like. So if her pupils are fucking huge, and you know she's sober and it's not dark out, go for it.

[Dyakovo]

Following on from viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21609 - I have a similar problem, like the individual who wrote that article.
In my case: I'm 23, enjoying life generally. However, I just can't get into a relationship, never had a girlfriend.
How can I meet nice women who want a relationship? (work is a no-no, it's frowned upon in most places to date employees)
I know the bar/club scene is probably a bad idea.

If I meet a woman, have a conversation with her, and a few weeks down the line once I know her a bit better, some of them say they haven't got a boyfriend [most of the time they say they are in a relationship], but I've no way of verifying whether it's genuine or not. If a woman likes me (which doesn't happen very often) and says they're single, I still have doubts about if they're genuine (is that odd?)

I feel like I have no confidence in having a relationship, I only end up ever being friends with girls. I'm not looking to "get laid" as that's tacky.

I've no idea how to boost my confidence in this area, as I have good social skills, but I feel am very lacking with regard to relationship skills, and I want a relationship simply because I want one, not to "have a girlfriend" or fit in with the crowd.

Obviously the reason is because you were meant to date guys...

[Ryadn]

Yeah, I call that "game playing", and I'd stay away from that if I were the OP. He should stick with people who are assimilated to his own culture. If he found that the dating customs of another culture were more comfortable for him, on the other hand, perhaps he might have luck with a different culture.

call it what ever u want but it works because if u act like u dont like them then they somtime star to like u making them weaker.the idea is to make them like u

What do you mean, though? Are you saying that some cultures have demure women who want to be "conquered" or something, as opposed to the West where they usually want to be treated like equals (even though you find different attitudes in all cultures)? I don't quite get where you're going.

for exaple in nicaragua we are vulgar,ect people.some girl are intersed if u have a morterbike or car,ect others like to be conquered.others may not know your intensions and have a low defence if u do it slowly others somtime will declare to u.i no a girl theat declared to me...

I'm not sure entirely what this means, but it seems connected to the way guys in Paris (and probably many other cities, but I've only been to Paris) trail after you saying things like, "Ma belle chere, je t'adore, you come home with me and we fuck, yes?"

[Londim]

Simple three letters:

A/S/L



But seriously, be yourself. Join clubs or groups about things you're interested in, great way to start a conversation and get to know people.

[Czardas]

My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest.

Ah, so that's what people mean by "friend zone."

*lives under a rock where it comes to "rules" about this stuff*

Now to figure out why exactly "friend" and "love interest" are mutually exclusive.

[Almajoya]

My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest.

Ah, so that's what people mean by "friend zone."

*lives under a rock where it comes to "rules" about this stuff*

Now to figure out why exactly "friend" and "love interest" are mutually exclusive.

Alas, I have yet to figure that one out. I would be fine with such an arrangement, but I think the majority of people would be creeped out by dating their friends for some reason. *shrugs*

[Doitzel]

My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest.

Ah, so that's what people mean by "friend zone."

*lives under a rock where it comes to "rules" about this stuff*

Now to figure out why exactly "friend" and "love interest" are mutually exclusive.

Because when things get rough it sucks to be the one that loses all their friends and their romantic partner.

Aaaaanyway, relationships suck. What a nightmare. Demands demands demands. Give me attention, go on dates with me, spend every waking minute with me, try awkward sexual positions with me, put up with my crying every 10 minutes, why aren't you as committed to this as I am?, blah blah blah.

I'll stick to worshipping someone who's totally not interested from afar, thanks.

[Poliwanacraca]

My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest.

Ah, so that's what people mean by "friend zone."

*lives under a rock where it comes to "rules" about this stuff*

Now to figure out why exactly "friend" and "love interest" are mutually exclusive.

If you figure that one out, let me know, since I'm going to have to retroactively not-date people whom I was friends with for some time before we hooked up.

Personally, I firmly believe that the whole "you have to do things quickly, or you'll get stuck in the Friend Zone" nonsense is just that. It's a thing people tell themselves in order to pretend that the problem isn't "she just wasn't ever attracted to me" (and, of course, a thing people tell each other to avoid saying, "I just wasn't ever attracted to you"). If you're really into someone, being friends with them is a good thing, not an obstacle.

[Neo Art]

If you figure that one out, let me know, since I'm going to have to retroactively not-date people whom I was friends with for some time before we hooked up.

Personally, I firmly believe that the whole "you have to do things quickly, or you'll get stuck in the Friend Zone" nonsense is just that. It's a thing people tell themselves in order to pretend that the problem isn't "she just wasn't ever attracted to me" (and, of course, a thing people tell each other to avoid saying, "I just wasn't ever attracted to you"). If you're really into someone, being friends with them is a good thing, not an obstacle.

I think it's...hrm...a little of both. I think it does exist. I have female friends, VERY good friends, who I simply could not imagine being with, because we're just too close. But I'm talking like, a decade + of friendship, a "we met in the first week of college" kind of deal.

That being said, I agree that "I'd hate to ruin the friendship!" is by and large a cop-out. It's not true. It's nonsense. People (by which I mean men and women, gay bi and straight) tend to know, within a reasonably short time of meeting someone, whether this is someone worth going out with once or twice, or not. And if "yes" then spending some more time getting to know that person won't really hurt, and if "no" then getting to know that person can only help. If your general first impression is "dateable" then that tends to stick. if it's "not dateable" then that ALSO tends to stick but MAYBE can be reversed with some time.

If you're a decent human being, getting to know someone is never a BAD thing. The number one thing one must have in order to be "dateable" is confidence. That above all else.

[Barzan]

Let's correct... or clarify... that. If a woman wants to sleep with you, she'll try to let you know. Eventually. Possibly using cues and signals that most men won't pick up on, leading her to frequent frustration. (I was listening to some of the complaints from women about this last weekend.)

It's also possible she'll be trying to cue interest but not to seem too interested so she doesn't "seem too easy." (It's entertaining sometimes to watch these women in action as a third party.)

Too true. I've had plenty of guys tell me on the subject of fuck buddies that women should just go for it and "get theirs," and then ten minutes later gripe about what a slut this one chick was for doing whatever on a first date. In this respect, women are just as filthy as men supposedly are, but many do not feel able to act on desire freely because they fear losing respect.

Anyhow, if you want a girl, don't change yourself. If you have to hide things about yourself or your personality in fear that she won't be interested in or like you, then she's not worth the effort. Granted, if you're a complete bum with no sense of personal hygiene, then that will pose a definite problem. But truly important aspects like your interests, ideals, opinons, etc. help define you. She doesn't have to love everything about you, or agree with you on every little last thing, but it's knowing that she is willing to accept your quirks or flaws that makes a relationship possible. If you can find that, you're set.

To go about getting her, don't worry about coming off looking like a complete dorkwad. As long as you are comfortable and confident with yourself, she will know and appreciate that. Hell, awkwardness and/or shyness aren't necessarily bad things either, if you are either of those. Some of us find it rather endearing. But I will say that you shouldn't wait long to ask her out. Just bulldoze on through it, come hell or high water, otherwise you'll end up stuck in the aforementioned "Friend Zone." A lot of girls dislike being the initiator, and wait for guys to ask them out first. If they feel that he's not going to ask, they will have no issue permanently categorizing you as a friend. If you end up interested in a girl who has been your friend for a while, then there are plenty of ways to snag her. Respect and reliability are a couple. You don't have to bend over backward to help her out of a tough spot, but being there when she needs you most never goes unnoticed.

Don't be afraid to look for people who aren't your "type," either. Sure, everybody has certain things they need in a person, whether physical or personality-wise, but if you become too concerned with a type checklist, you will end up missing a lot of opportunities to meet women whom you might have found ridiculously awesome had you given them a chance. I myself am now head over heels for a guy whom I had initially stuck in the never-in-a-million-years category.

As a side note, if you've ever read one of those flirting body-language article thingies on MSN or whatever, where they're saying, "Oh, well if she goes pigeon-toed..." or "Oh, well if she keeps making her neck really obvious..." they're actually pretty accurate. I've noticed myself doing both things around men I've been interested in. Most girls I know agree that we tend to face you more when we're interested, also. Other than respect, a fairly well-known reason to look her in the eye instead of the chest is that everyone's eyes dilate when they are in the presence of someone they like. So if her pupils are fucking huge, and you know she's sober and it's not dark out, go for it.

This is the best advice I've seen so far. ^^^

My problem was, I kept waiting too long, and they got comfortable with the idea of me as a friend rather than a love interest.

Ah, so that's what people mean by "friend zone."

*lives under a rock where it comes to "rules" about this stuff*

Now to figure out why exactly "friend" and "love interest" are mutually exclusive.

If you figure that one out, let me know, since I'm going to have to retroactively not-date people whom I was friends with for some time before we hooked up.

Personally, I firmly believe that the whole "you have to do things quickly, or you'll get stuck in the Friend Zone" nonsense is just that. It's a thing people tell themselves in order to pretend that the problem isn't "she just wasn't ever attracted to me" (and, of course, a thing people tell each other to avoid saying, "I just wasn't ever attracted to you"). If you're really into someone, being friends with them is a good thing, not an obstacle.

I have to disagree. If one waits too long, the other will eventually tire of waiting and assume they aren't interested in anything more than friends.

[Poliwanacraca]

If you figure that one out, let me know, since I'm going to have to retroactively not-date people whom I was friends with for some time before we hooked up.

Personally, I firmly believe that the whole "you have to do things quickly, or you'll get stuck in the Friend Zone" nonsense is just that. It's a thing people tell themselves in order to pretend that the problem isn't "she just wasn't ever attracted to me" (and, of course, a thing people tell each other to avoid saying, "I just wasn't ever attracted to you"). If you're really into someone, being friends with them is a good thing, not an obstacle.

I think it's...hrm...a little of both. I think it does exist. I have female friends, VERY good friends, who I simply could not imagine being with, because we're just too close. But I'm talking like, a decade + of friendship, a "we met in the first week of college" kind of deal.

Quick question there - was there a time when you actively wanted to date those female friends? Because, if not, then I maintain that what I said is still true of you. It doesn't mean you don't think they're totally awesome people. It just means that if at some point, you'd thought, "Oh man, I really really want to go out with Mary," then even hanging out with her for ten years wouldn't make you find the idea of going out with Mary unimaginable. (It might make you put it in the category of "things that are obviously never going to happen, and I'm okay with that" but it wouldn't be unimaginable. To use my own life as an example, one of my closest male friends had a crush on me back when we first met. I've known him for years and years, and he's long since accepted that we will never date, but he still quite clearly categorizes "getting to go out with Poli" in the same sort of vein as "developing superpowers" - i.e. things that will never happen, and that you're really perfectly content not having happen, but it'd be kinda cool if they did.)

That being said, I agree that "I'd hate to ruin the friendship!" is by and large a cop-out. It's not true. It's nonsense. People (by which I mean men and women, gay bi and straight) tend to know, within a reasonably short time of meeting someone, whether this is someone worth going out with once or twice, or not. And if "yes" then spending some more time getting to know that person won't really hurt, and if "no" then getting to know that person can only help. If your general first impression is "dateable" then that tends to stick. if it's "not dateable" then that ALSO tends to stick but MAYBE can be reversed with some time.

If you're a decent human being, getting to know someone is never a BAD thing. The number one thing one must have in order to be "dateable" is confidence. That above all else.

Agreed.

[Barzan]

If you figure that one out, let me know, since I'm going to have to retroactively not-date people whom I was friends with for some time before we hooked up.

Personally, I firmly believe that the whole "you have to do things quickly, or you'll get stuck in the Friend Zone" nonsense is just that. It's a thing people tell themselves in order to pretend that the problem isn't "she just wasn't ever attracted to me" (and, of course, a thing people tell each other to avoid saying, "I just wasn't ever attracted to you"). If you're really into someone, being friends with them is a good thing, not an obstacle.

I think it's...hrm...a little of both. I think it does exist. I have female friends, VERY good friends, who I simply could not imagine being with, because we're just too close. But I'm talking like, a decade + of friendship, a "we met in the first week of college" kind of deal.

Quick question there - was there a time when you actively wanted to date those female friends? Because, if not, then I maintain that what I said is still true of you. It doesn't mean you don't think they're totally awesome people. It just means that if at some point, you'd thought, "Oh man, I really really want to go out with Mary," then even hanging out with her for ten years wouldn't make you find the idea of going out with Mary unimaginable. (It might make you put it in the category of "things that are obviously never going to happen, and I'm okay with that" but it wouldn't be unimaginable. To use my own life as an example, one of my closest male friends had a crush on me back when we first met. I've known him for years and years, and he's long since accepted that we will never date, but he still quite clearly categorizes "getting to go out with Poli" in the same sort of vein as "developing superpowers" - i.e. things that will never happen, and that you're really perfectly content not having happen, but it'd be kinda cool if they did.)

This pretty much describes 90% of my friendships with females.

[Greed and Death]

Snip.

Plays into my Theory the way to get pretty chciks is to talk and treat them the exact same way as you would treat ugly chicks.